Edited by Azizi Powell
Latest revision - October 17, 2022 12:05 PM
This pancocojams post presents excerpts from a discussion thread on Mudcat folk music forum about certain "Cotton Eyed Joe" lyrics that may or may not be racist.
This post also presents comments from other online discussion threads about whether certain versions of "Cotton Eyed Joe" are racist.
This pancocojams post also includes my editorial notes about why some people think that certain "Cotton Eyed Joe" songs are racist.
The content of this post is presented for socio-cultural and folkloric purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
-snip-
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2022/10/a-partial-time-line-with-lyrics-for.html for the closely related pancocojams post entitled "A Partial Time Line With Lyrics For The Song "Cotton Eyed Joe" (from 1858 to 1994)."
-snip-
DISCLAIMER - Given the history of this song, people should be concerned about the possibility that certain lyrics in "Cotton Eyed Joe" could be considered racist and/or that depictions or performances of "Cotton Eyed Joe" could purposely or inadvertently be racist.
I recommend changing certain words in "Cotton Eyed Joe" ("Cotton Eye Joe") songs to avoid those potentially problematic words. For instance, the singer can substitute the words "We played the heck out of "Cotton Eyed Joe" instead of singing "We beat the hell out of "Cotton Eyed Joe".
I also recommend that people use due diligence to better ensure that this song and other 19th century songs like this are culturally appropriate in their depiction and their performance.
****
EXCERPT ABOUT COTTON EYED JOE FROM A MUDCAT FOLK MUSIC DISCUSSION THREAD
This online sources and these selected comments are given in no particular order and are numbered for referencing purposes only. These numbers don't coincide with their placement in their discussion threads.
From https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=13537 Cotton-eyed Joe-true story/composite?
1.katlaughing, Date: 07 Sep 99 - 07:46 PM
"These are the ones in the DT that I consider to be racist.
COTTON-EYED JOE
Way back yonder a long time ago
Daddy had a man called cotton-eyed joe
Blew into town on a travelin' show
Nobody danced like the Cotton eyed Joe.
CHORUS:
Cotton-eyed Joe, Cotton-eyed Joe
where did you come from?
Where did you go?
Where did you come from?
Where did you go?
Where did you come from Cotton-eyed Joe?
Mama's at the window
Mama's at the door
She can't see nothin' but the Cotton-eyed Joe
Daddy held the fiddle,
held the bow
He beat the hell out of Cotton-eyed Joe
Made himself a fiddle,
Made himself a bow
Made a little tune called the Cotton-Eyed Joe
Hadn't oughta been
For Cotton-eyed Joe
I'da been married some forty years ago.
Whenever there's a dance
All the women want to go
And they all want to dance with Cotton-Eyed Joe
Daddy won't say
But I think he know
Whatever happened to Cotton-eyed Joe !
**
2. raredance, Date: 07 Sep 99 - 11:09 PM
"The DT version that kat posted was recorded by the Red
Clay Ramblers on their 1992 "Rambler" CD. It sounds so pretty
that it's easy to ignore the lyrical content.
rich r"
-snip-
DT= "Digital Tradition": a collection of song lyrics that is housed on Mudcat Folk Music Forum
**
3. Dan Evergreen, Date: 08 Sep 99 - 10:23 AM
"Katlaughing, what's racist about it?"
**
4. katlaughing, Date: 08 Sep 99 - 10:41 AM
"Considered in the context of our nation's history, it
depicts a slave owner making his slave dance, beating him, and ultimately
murdering him, as far as I can see. I thought it was obvious."
**
5. Frank Hamilton, Date: 08 Sep 99 - 05:49 PM
"Kat
Is it racist? It might have a different meaning if
"Daddy" was a black man. "Daddy had a man" might mean that
he employed someone and Cotton Eyed Joe ran off with his wife. (Just a
thought.) "...
**
6. Frank Hamilton, Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:33 PM
..."I don't know that the term
"cotton-eyed Joe" is racist, more descriptive I think. It could be
applied to any race."...
**
7. Stewie, Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:58 AM
" Frank
Bill C. Malone agrees with you. He writes, at page 19 of
'Country Music USA': 'Black-face minstrelsy contributed some of the most
venerated fiddle tunes such as "Old Dan Tucker", "Listen to the
Mockingbird", "Old Zip Coon" (better known as "Turkey in
the Straw") and "Cotton-eyed Joe" ...'
Numerous oldtime performers recorded the song in the 1920s.
Two that spring to mind are the Mississippi stringband Carter Brothers and Son
who recorded it in Memphis in November 1928 and Fiddlin' John Carson who
recorded in Atlanta in March 1927. The Skillet Lickers also recorded it in late
1920s, but I do not have a specific date - it is on County LP 506. On the notes
to that LP Norm Cohen writes: '"Cotton-eyed Joe" is an ante-bellum
song found in both the white and Negro tradition, and probably originated in
the minstrel theatre. Alan Lomax suggests that the title refers to a person
whose eyes were milky white from trachoma'."
**
8. Stewie, Date: 27 Sep 99 - 11:12 AM
"I have found the date of the Skillet Lickers version - 10
April 1928. The early recordings that I have found are:
Virginian stringband - Dykes Magic City Trio 9 March 1927 in
New York
Georgian stringband - Fiddlin' John Carson and Virginia
Reelers 17 March 1927 in Atlanta
Arkansas stringband - Pope's Arkansas Mountaineers 6
February 1928 in ?
Georgian stringband - Skillet Lickers 10 April 1928 in
Atlanta
Mississippi stringband - Carter Brothers and Son 22 November
1928 in Memphis
Thus, Dykes Magic City Trio got in ahead of Fiddlin' John by
6 days. I have not heard the Dykes Magic City recording, but it was reissued on
Old Homestead LP 191. The other four above are fiddle dominated dance tunes.
The Fiddlin' John rendition is basically a series of dance calls. In his notes
to County 544 (Georgia Fiddle Bands Vol 2) Gene Wiggins writes that John's
'Cotton-eyed Joe' with its 'mixolydian cast' is
said 'by old-timers to be older than other tunes with the same name'. The other
renditions are mostly lengthy instrumental breaks interspersed with the usual
couplets - 'had it not been for ...' 'went to the window, went to the door ...'
etc - the Skillet Lickers' has the most lyrics but even these are repeated -
and definitely none is racist. The early recording artists focused on using it
for dance purposes. The Carter Brothers and Son recording is great - wild,
exuberant twin fiddling. Maybe, as Frank suggests, we are looking at two
sources for the song - one dance orientated and the other not. Certainly,
judging from other contributions to the thread, they have some lyrics in
common. But where are the links that thread the later versions to what the
experts say is the song's minstrel origins? Did the stringbands simply drop
what they did not need? Were the expanded lyrics later accretions? This little
songs raises many questions to which none of us seems to be able to provide
satisfactory answers.
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor's Note: I added italics for these sentences to highlight them.
**
9. Frank Hamilton, Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:33 PM
"Can't mention minstrel show origins without concluding that
the lyrics are by necessity racist. I don't know that the term
"cotton-eyed Joe" is racist, more descriptive I think. It could be
applied to any race.
Thanks Stewie for the discography. Very helpful.
I think that the incorporation of the minstrel show into the
Appalachian tradition (ie: Uncle Dave Macon) has been cited in "That
Half-Barbaric Twang", a wonderful social survey of the banjo. The question
arises again as to what constitutes "good taste" in the singing of
these songs. Sometimes, a straight-out explanation is in order and I think can
be accepted quite readilly without offense.
I sing "Marching Through Georgia" for Southern
audiences who recognize that it is a historical document and understand what
General Tecumseh Sherman was about. We try to give different perpectives on
this. I think the same can be done for Cotton Eyed Joe. Did the song lose it's
racist overtones when it was incorporated into the Southern Mountain tradition?
It may have. Many of the early settlers in the Southern Mountains according to
Jean Ritchie never saw a black person and had no reference for prejudice."
**
10. Stewie, Date: 27 Sep 99 - 06:54 PM
…"As Frank has pointed out above, minstrel show origins
almost by definition imply racist sentiments. In addition to the Karen Linn
reference that he gave, chapter two of Bill Malone's 'Singing Cowboys and
Musical Mountaineers', headed 'Popular Culture and the Music of the South',
provides a brief but simulating discussion of minstrelsy, medicine shows etc.
Are there any surviving minstrel texts to tell us what
Carson and his contemporaries inherited? It is a long journey from the minstrel
stage to Lomax's lullaby, the Red Clay Ramblers, Michelle Shocked and Garth
Brooks. It would be fascinating to know some of the steps between."
**
11. GUEST,OTMurphy, Date: 19 Feb 00 - 07:27 PM
'"As an old, very old ex-Kentucky mountain boy, I remember
that "had a man" had nothing to do with slavery. My grandfather every
fall "got a man" to help him with the hog killing. My grandmother
even "got a man" with a mule to help plow the garden plot in the
Spring after my grandfather died. And she, as a deep fundalmentalist Christian,
would have been shocked to think that getting a man had anything to do with
courtship or an affair."
**
12. BanjoRay, Date: 20 Feb 00 - 06:36 PM
"I would have thought that if the DT words were racist Daddy
wouldn't have had a man called cotton-eyed joe, he'd have had a BOY. Cheers Ray"
**
13. From: McGrath of Harlow, Date: 20 Feb 00 - 08:01 PM
…"I reckon Dick Greenhaus has the rights of it, the DT
version is floating verses arranged to make some kind of a story, just fillinmg
in the space between the lovely chorus, which is what makes tyhe song. The
chorus deserves a better set of verses to match the mood it sets up, and
scattered along this thread there's the makings of this.
But though they aren't the set of verses I'd choose if I was
singing it, I can't see how the DT verses are racist, unless you assume that
Daddy and Cotton-Eyed Joe are different colours, and that "had"
implies ownership.
Though if that's the assumption kat made, I doubt she's
alone, which would mean singing them would be likely to give offence to people
you don't want to offend,and comfort to people you don't want to comfort.
But the crucial resons to avoid them would be that, by not
singing them, you might upset the people who are always going around sneering,
and talking about "PC carried to the point of madness", when what
they are complaining about is someone showing a little common courtesy - and
they deserve to be annoyed."
**
14. CapriUni, Date: 09 Feb 02 - 08:19 PM
..." Seems to me that whether this song is racist or not depends
on who's singing it.
The version from Scarborough, as written by slaves for
slaves about slaves is not racist (and may in fact be among the earliest
versions of "my gal done left me" blues).
But if a white slave owner heard the song, and stuck in
verses about beating and killing his slave as an 'amusement' (which, I agree with
Katlaughing, seems to be what's happening in the song) than it is racist.
Also, the did the verses Art Thieme posted:
"Load 'em and stack 'em
and take 'em on down,
Put 'em ashore
at Evansville town.
The river go up,
And the shack it goes down,
River run through
Old Evansville town."
strike anyone else as possibly referring to selling slaves,
or is my brain being quirky?
Anyway, this all raises the question of whether the version
about the jilted lover and the beaten slave are really the same song...
Yes, they have the same (or similiar) tune, and the same
central figure. But how big of a role does intent play in a song's identity --
Both on the author/performer side and the audience side?"...
**
15. Dicho (Frank Staplin), Date: 09 Feb 02 - 09:38 PM
"CapriUni, this thread, with the exception of a few factual
threads by Rich R, OTMurphy, Thieme, Stewie, etc., is loaded with nonsense.
1. Load 'em an' stack 'em: Anyone not paranoid would assume
bales, barrels, etc. The normal loading of a boat at a river port (Thieme puts
the town under water after a flood, a common occurrence in the old days).
Shawneetown, Illinois, was one of many that got wiped out so often that it was
moved.
2. Had a man: I have used this phrase all my life about
having someone hired to do something, anything. I had a man clean my sidewalk a
couple of days ago. (common language, stated by OTMurphy above)
3. The song reproduced from Scarborough indicates that
Cotton-eyed Joe stole the singer's gal. The same story, pared down, is echoed
in the version in the DT. I see absolutely nothing racist in it. If I had been
Daddy and had a shotgun, I might well have made mincemeat out of Cotton-eyed
Joe or any other salty dog hired hand that sweet-talked my wife. (Before WWI,
consequences probably nil).
4. In Georgia, people with large whites to the eyes are
called cotton-eyed. No disease or conjunctivitis required. This usage is fairly
common, as pointed out in the quote from a dictionary of slang (Gargoyle).
The song probably had a Negro origin, but, like all good
tunes, was quickly adapted by whites. I have heard a Metís fiddle band play it."
**
16. Tannywheeler, Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:22 PM
"It seems to me the verses A.T. (and CU) quoted would have
more to do with people loading cargo to ship -- on a riverboat, perhaps -- to
places along the river. These people could be any color, or condition of
servitude. Tw"
**
17. GUEST,Bob Coltman, Date: 23 Nov 05 - 05:49 PM
"Bob Wills did a great uptempo version with a very different
tune. In it his line is "Daddy worked a man called Cotton-Eyed Joe."
Now the man could well be black, but could as easily be
white. "Worked a man" refers most directly either to a hired man, or
to a tenant farmer, i.e. sharecropper -- not necessarily a slave. Given the
time of probable origin (well after emancipation), I'd say the man was hired.
The Talley and Scarborough versions, both very early, seem
to confirm that this song began as a black song, the Talley version sung by
blacks about blacks, the Scarborough bearing every sign of being from the white
blackface minstrel stage -- which could never be accused of being gentle about
black stereotypes. Likely the minstrels based it, like so many in their
repertoire, on a black original.
Still, nearly every later version seems more or less
assimilated into the southern dance tradition, with words that are not
particularly race-specific.
Kat, I admit I was surprised when you and another poster
found the "racist" version painful...or even distinctly racist. Am I
just missing something here? Fiddlers commonly "whup hell" out of the
fiddle; I'd say the reference there is to the tune, not the man. The possible
reference to a back-alley murder in the last verse is real tenuous.
The possibility that Mama and Cotton-Eyed Joe had an affair
is implicit, maybe. There's very little mention of interracial sex in
traditional songs, and I'm not sure this really is one. Again, Joe may be
white.
I'm working hard to pick out the pain and the racism, but
somehow it just doesn't strike me that way. If it's there, and these aren't
just random verses, it's a good deal less obvious, certainly, than a good few
other songs that are more overt.
I think you took this song to be essentially a narrative,
like a ballad, and I just think it's a lot less story-oriented than that. What
do you think?"
**
18. Q (Frank Stapin), 23 Nov. 05 - 09:33 PM
"The earliest dated mention of Cotton-eyed Joe I have found
is in Perrow, a song from the MS of Dr. Harrington, 1909, collected from
Mississippi Negroes.
Ef it hadn't been fer dat Cottoneye Joe,
Mought er been married six er seben year ago.
E. C. Perrow, "Songs and Rhymes from the South, 1915,
part VIII, no. 81, Jour. American Folklore, vol. 28.
Scarborough's notes suggest that it could go back to slavery
times. It does seem to be a Black song.
Common slang usage, as stated here or in another thread,
defines cotton-eyed as having the whitea of the eye prominent (J. E. Lighter,
Historical Dictionary of American Slang, vol. 1).
Nothing suggests a white man is involved, and I see nothing
to support racist interpretations."
**
19. Q (Frank Staplin), Date: 15 Jun 06 - 10:49 PM
"'Cotton-eyed' as a descriptive adjective for having the
whites of the eyes prominent was first noted in print in "Dialect
Notes," 1905; older references are anecdotal.
Gargoyle noted this way back in 19 and 99 in this thread,
and correctly identified the subject of the song as seduction.
Dorothy Scarborough, in "On the Trail of Negro Folk
Songs" (1925) received anecdotal evidence that the song was sung by slaves
on plantations in Texas and Louisiana. Since these sources were multiple,
chances are good that it actually is an African-American party song from the
19th c.
In threads above is the excellent version collected by
Scarborough as well as one from Talley, "Negro Folk Rhymes." N. I.
White collected fragments from Blacks in Alabama in 1915-1916.
The song has not been found in minstrel routines as far as I
can determine.
The party song has persisted among whites as a fiddle tune
(multiple recordings in the 1920's), but with lyrics that no longer tell a
complete story."
**
20. Goose Gander, Date: 16 Jun 06 - 07:26 PM
"Where did you come from, Cotton-Eyed Joe?
[...]
I can't find anything that specifically connects
Cotton-Eyed Joe to the stage, whether minstrel, vaudeville, medicine show, what
have you. When you consider how many different prints and parodies there are of
popular minstrel songs such as Jordan Am A Hard Road, Old Dan Tucker, Root Hog
or Die, etc., I would certainly expect to have found something.
I'll feel pretty dumb if someone goes and posts some commericially printed lyrics circa 1800s, but it seems safe to say that Cotton-Eyed Joe is not directly connected to blackface minstrelsy."
**
21. Scoville, Date: 15 Dec 06 - 09:33 AM
..." "worked a man" goes
along with the idea of "had a man" as in a hired man, not an owned
man. But then I've very commonly heard the phrase "had a man" to mean
a hired hand; I've seen it in older writings and it's still in use now, at
least in this part of the country."
**
22. GUEST,Buster, Date: 29 Jan 08 - 09:08 AM
"I have to be honest...it really irritates me when someone
makes a blanket statement about such a great song. This thread started with
someone saying that this song has racist origins. I think it's clear from all
of the responses that no one knows for sure WHAT exactly the origins of this
song are and that's what makes it all the more beautiful.
I grew up in eastern Kentucky and this song was a part of my
childhood. The term "Cotton Eyed Joe" we always assumed referred to a
very good looking guy with light blue eyes that whipped into town, stole girls
hearts and dissapeared."
****
SELECTED COMMENTS ABOUT COTTON EYED JOE FROM TWO OTHER ONLINE DISCUSSION THREADS
These discussion threads are given in no particular order and the selected comments from those discussion threads are numbered for referencing purposes only. These comments' numbers don't necessarily coincide with their numbers in those discussion threads
From https://www.quora.com/Is-the-song-Cotton-Eyed-Joe-racist Is the song "Cotton-Eyed Joe" racist?
1. Paul Smith, 2020
"I don’t think so. It doesn’t make enough sense to be racist, seems to me. Its origin is from before the Civil War, and my understanding is that it was played and sung by African-Americans, which is why I’m attracted to it—not a lot of authentic African-American dance music from that era... There are a bunch of versions, and it wouldn’t surprise me if there were some with offensive lyrics, though I don’t know any."
**
2. Emilio Dumphque, 2021
“I believe the term “cotton-eyed” describes eyes with visible cataracts, essentially saying that Joe is blind, at least in one eye. It’s a very old fiddle tune for dancing. My favorite version is the Skillet Lickers version from 1927. I don’t recall any blatantly racist lyrics, but there are 20 or more verses in dozens of versions.”
****
From https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/jsbi91/is_the_song_cotton_eye_joe_racist_is_it/ Is the song Cotton Eye Joe Racist?
1. Posted by u/InadequateUsername, 2020 (OP= Original Poster)
"Is the song "Cotton Eye Joe" Racist? Is it
wrong/politically incorrect for people to be playing the most commonly heard
version by Rednex?
My mother is convinced that the song is racist and is quite
upset to have found out an employee was playing this song during a childrens
program. Everything I've managed to find so far is inconclusive.
Some have claimed it's a "slave folk song" but I
have only ever seen folk/country version sung by stereotypical southern white
people."
**
Reply
2. Dorkamundo, 2020
"I mean, the history suggests it's an old folk song likely
written by slaves.
Nothing in the lyrics suggests it is racist, other than
people thinking the term "Cotton-eye" has some kind of racial
connotations and some old lyrics that include a questionable word.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton-Eyed_Joe
**
Reply
3. InadequateUsername, OP, 2020
"I just read this huffpo article https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cotton-eyed-joe-origins_n_55b8ffade4b0a13f9d1b1b15
after posting this,
which gives a little more context.
I think my conclusion will be that the song written by
Rednex isn't racist at face value, and like you said to depends on how/who you
interpret cotton-eye joe as being, and whether or not cotton-eye is a racial
epithet. Other than the cotton-eye prefix it's just "if it weren't for joe
I would've been married".
My conclusion is, it's fine to say you don't like the song
and it makes you uncomfortable due to the potential provenience of it, and for
the case in this situation she's fine to ask that the employee not play it as
she's their boss. But it's not okay to label someone as racist due to them
having only heard the one version and lyrically it seems fine."
**
Reply
4. Rapidashmama, 2021
"Rednex didn't write the song."
**
Reply
5. InadequateUsername, OP, 2021
"How'd you find this discussion after a year??
**
Reply
6. DCBizzle, 2021
"I just googled is cotton eye Joe racist and this was the
first result lol"
**
Reply
7. NutInNedStark, 2022
"Lol literally just did this"
**
Reply
8. Kelpie_Crush, 2022
"The 'Wondering if Cotton-Eye Joe is a Racist Song' crew
rolls deep"
**
Reply
9. Diesel33g, 2022
"It never stops"
**
Reply
10. oilchangeroo, 2022
"That’s literally me now. At my sons first grade dance and
they are playing it so I had to check lol"
**
Reply
11. j7urner, 2022
"Just searched is cotton eye Joe racist. Why is this song
still relevant after 200 years."
**
Reply
12. Medi15, 2022
"idk, i got intrested in the topic because my friend claimed
that the song was racist (he has a mental retardation). The reason why he
thinks it is racist is because the lyrics is racist in some weird way and the
music video where one guy is "beating on a drum in a racist way"."
**
13. GayForThanos, 2020
"The song is actually about a black slave who picks cotton though."
**
Reply
14. than004, 2020
"I don’t know anything about the history or meaning of the song, I was just saying in general. But that being said, what is your source?"
**
Reply
15. GayForThanos, 2020
"https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cotton-eyed-joe-origins_n_55b8ffade4b0a13f9d1b1b15
**
Reply
16. than004, 2020
"That’s quite a bit of history for a song. Granted, it has changed to be presented as less vulgar. But if you’re keeping the origin of the song in mind while listening to the Rednex version, it would be racist. If you take it for what it is in it’s simplest form, a dance song, it doesn’t have to be racist. The current version is open for interpretation
**
Reply
17. Nosavez, 2022
"The song isn't racist. I swear the liberals putting everything out of context because it's a song from the South."
**
Reply
18. MechaShadowV2, 2022
"It feels more hillbilly than southern to me anyway. And isn't the band Swedish anyway?"
**
19. Seahawk_I_am_I_am, 2020
"That song is not racist."
**
Reply
20. gregofvanc, 2021
"Do you mean "racist" or "racial" ?"
**
Reply
21. InadequateUsername, OP, 2021
"Racist"
**
Reply
22, than004, 2021
"You can find racism in everything if you believe it’s there."
**
Reply
23. jdizzle08, 2021
"That’s because every thing is racist (at least in America)"
**
24. j7urner, 2022
"Just searched is cotton eye Joe racist. Why is this song
still relevant after 200 years"
**
Reply
25. AnotherUserOutThere, 2022
"Just did it today when as it was what google was suggesting
when i was just trying to search for the song and it auto complete the racist
part after it and i was just curious where it would lead... Turns out the hole
runs deep"
**
26. VYDEOS, 2021
"Does it really matter tho? It's just a song. Nobody thinks about slavery or racism when they hear it. Nothing in the lyrics is racist."
**
Reply
27. SaveTreez, 2021
"I thought of racism when I heard it"
**
Reply
28. MechaShadowV2, 2022
"Why though, because it mentions cotton? Or because it's southern sounding?"
**
Reply
29. FemboyPet0, 2022
"Both bc cotton and the south have pretty heavy connections to slavery"
**
Reply
30. MechaShadowV2, 2022
"So anything that has to do with cotton and/or the south automatically makes something racist?"
**
Reply
31. FemboyPet0, 2022
"When did i say that? Thats a whole other sentence"
**
Reply
32. MechaShadowV2, 2022
"Saying that it's racist because it has a southern feel and mentions cotton because that has connections with slavery, the logical conclusion is that everything involving those things is racist. Ironically, the song is from Europe. And slavery was everywhere and cotton is grown throughout the world."
**
Reply
33. FemboyPet0, 2022
"Stop debate lording Everyone knows why cotton southern america and slavery are related like it or not And i never said its racist i said it sounds it Stop just acting like every teitter user ever its annoying"
**
Reply
34. MechaShadowV2, 2022
"Never said they wheren't related, I just said the that those things don't automatically make it racist or equal racism And what the heck is "debate lording" that's a new one to me. In any event I'm sorry, but to me, your post is the one that seemed like a Twitter user as you where the one that said it was racist, not me. Or at least it really sounded like you where saying: "cotton? Southern? Slavery!! So that means this song is racist! That's what I read in your posts. Admittedly I thought you where the guy that said they thought of racism when hear this song, as it was him I was asking the question originally. Still though your posts seem to clearly be siding with him."
**
Reply
35. FemboyPet0, 2022
"I rly do not care enough to keep doing this
You know why ppl would relate it to slavery and AGAIN i never said anything about racism there isnt any "sides" here
Debate lording is trying to get an argumemt out of thin air which is exactly what youre doing
Im not responding again so get some hoes
**
Reply
36. MechaShadowV2, 2022
"So you had to reply just to say your not going to reply? That ... makes little since, and yes, you literally said it was racist in your first comment. Remember you started this, I asked someone else how they thought this was racist and then you replied to me, saying why it was, so you started it, not me. And why would I need a farming tool? If you where referring to a rather derogatory term for women you spelled it wrong and I'd say that's being sexist but you'd probably deny that too.
Ps again I never said it wasn't related, it's just not racist because it has nothing to do with slavery. It's just a song singing about someone named cotton eyed Joe and it's not even southern. Not that the south or cotton = slavery. That's where I have the problem with, as slavery is just one of many things that comes to mind when thinking of the south and isn't even the first thing for me. That that would be like if you heard Germans and the first thing you thought of was holocaust or Nazis or Turkey and the first thing you thought of was Armenian genocide, or something similar. See how that kind of thinking is problematic and prejudiced?
**
Reply
37. Few_Dog_5794, 2022
"Actually the song was written in the US originally around the time of the Civil war. But the band “Rednex” sang the most popular version (which doesn’t have the exact same lyrics as the original) In my opinion, not that my opinion matters but, saying that this song doesn’t have anything to do with racism is just tone deaf.
**
Reply
38. connzerjeeass, 2022
"So it sounds racist because cotton and the South, so much friends pillow cases sound racist now"
**
Reply
39. FemboyPet0, 2022
"Tell me when i ssid the word racist or racism."
**
40. MF_Kenpachi47, 2021
"Cotton eye joe" along with the southern drawl
from a band called the rednex does have a certain connotation."
**
41. jdizzle08, 2021
"How can you not think of slavery when you hear this song"
**
Reply
42. [deleted], 2022
"Yeah, to me it always sounded racist. However, we can't
really assume it is bigoted if there isn't enough data on it."
**
Reply
43. Comprehensive_Home48, 2022
"I also think of slavery when I hear the word
"slavery" is the word " slavery" a connotation"
**
Reply
44. MechaShadowV2, 2022
"I've never thought of slavery, I've just thought of r
southern folk people. If that automatically means slavery or makes you think of
slavery then I'd say that's bigotry in of itself."
**
Reply
45. fijiboy99, 2022
"Bruh, it's an old southern folk song mentioning someone with
some connection to cotton.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make that connection.
That isn't bigotry, it's just looking at the context
surrounding something.
**
Reply
46. MechaShadowV2, 2022
"Bruh, it's from a European band. Is everything from the
south and folky racist? Do you really hear south and think "racist".
That is bigotry."
**
Reply
47. fijiboy99, 2022
"Lmao okay"
**
48. rasonage, 2022
"well it was written by white people so of course it's
racist."
**
Reply
49. Miserable-Form4748, 2022
"incorrect. Check your facts before you speak them."
**
Reply
50. rasonage, 2022
"Sarcasm... Over your head"
****
PANCOCOJAMS EDITOR'S NOTES ABOUT "COTTON EYED JOE" ("COTTON EYE JOE")
A number of commenters in various YouTube discussion threads (and other online discussion threads) about "Cotton Eyed Joe" ("Cotton Eye Joe") state that that song is racist without giving any reason/s for that conclusion.
I believe that some people conflate slavery in the United States with racism. Clearly, racism is a huge component of the enslavement of Black people in the United States and elsewhere. However, every song that was composed during United States slavery (and every person Black or White or another race/ethnicity) that sung those songs and still sings some of those songs wasn't and isn't racist.
Furthermore, a song can refer to slavery without being racist.
From my reading, it appears to be an accepted fact that "Cotton Eyed Joe" originated as a dance song among enslaved Black Americans in the South. For example, here's the version of "Cotton Eyed Joe" that was included in African American professor/folklorist Thomas W. Talley in his 1922 book Negro Folk Rhymes Wise And Otherwise"
Hol' my fiddle an' hol' my bow,
Whilst I knocks ole Cotton Eyed Joe.
I'd a been dead some seben years ago,
If I hadn't a danced dat Cotton Eyed Joe.
Oh, it makes dem ladies love me so,
W'en I comes 'roun' pickin' ole Cotton Eyed Joe!
Yes, I'd a been married some forty years ago,
If I hadn't stay'd 'roun' wid Cotton Eyed Joe.
I hain't seed ole Joe, since was las' Fall;
Dey say he's been sol' down to Guinea Gall.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/27195/27195-h/27195-h.htm page. 32
It should be noted in that example that "Cotton Eyed Joe" is the name of a dance tune and a type of dance. "Cotton Eyed Joe" (who is also referred to as "ole Joe" is also the name of a man who was sold into the deep South (which is referred to as "Guinea Gall" in that example and in some other 19th century southern United States Black plantation songs.
While there is mention of slavery in this song, the main focus was the creation of a tune and song for the purpose of (non-religious) dancing. It seems to me that a lot of contemporary teaching about slavery in the United States and elsewhere minimizes or fails to even acknowledge that Black enslaved people sometimes made music and danced just for their own creative expression and enjoyment, However, I believe that secular music making and dancing helped enslaved people make it through those horrendous times almost as much as composing, singing, and dancing (ring shouts) to religious music
**
One main reason why "Cotton Eyed Joe" songs are considered to be racist is that lyrics in certain versions of those songs are misinterpreted. For example, the first verse in the Thomas W. Talley 1922 version includes the lyrics ""Hol' my fiddle an' hol' my bow/ Whilst I knocks ole Cotton Eyed Joe".
"Cotton Eyed Joe" in those lyrics refers to a particular fiddle song.
**
The Red Clay Ramblers on their 1992 "Rambler" CD includes the lyrics "He
beat the hell out of Cotton Eyed Joe". '"Beating the hell out of "Cotton Eyed Joe"
doesn't mean that a man was physically hit (or lynched as some
commenters erroneously concluded in a fiddlehangout discussion about "Cotton Eyed Joe" https://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/30086.
For a comparison, consider the contemporary African American
Vernacular English terms "killed" and "murdered" (among other superlatives) that
refer to someone doing something exceptionally well (such as She's really killing it" (meaning singing that song really well) or "He really murdering that beat".
**
As pointed out in some Mudcat discussion thread comments given above, the meaning of the lyrics "Daddy had a man" in that 1992 Red Ramblers version of Cotton Eyed Joe" doesn't have to mean that a White man enslaved a Black man. "Daddy" could be any race as could "Mama" and "Cotton Eyed Joe". Also, in the context of that song, the colloquial phrase "had a man" or "got a man" could mean that the man was hired to do a particular job.
**
The lyrics "She [Mama] can't see nothin' but the
Cotton-eyed Joe" [from that same 1992 Red Rambler version of that song] probably mean that "She couldn't see anything but
people dancing to the fiddle tune "Cotton Eyed Joe". These lyrics
aren't a referent to any romantic interest "Mama" may have had toward
the man called "Cotton Eyed Joe".
**
Some people might assume that the first known publication of the "Cotton Eyed Joe" song in 1882 is racist because it was written in so-called Black dialect*. I don't believe that that assumption
is necessarily true. The collector may have simply been trying to document the way the song's contributor/s talked for the folkloric record.
I hasten to say that I don't like so-called Black dialect in part because it
reinforces negative views of Black people- then and now. And I don't recommend that so-called Black dialect be used for 19th century "Cotton Eyed Joe" songs now.
* I use the term "so-called" Black dialect partly
because examples of that language may have been exaggerated and/or incorrectly
documented. I also use that term because some 19th Southern White people also
used that same dialect (i.e. spoke the same way as some Black southerners who
used that dialect.)
**
The YouTube vlog "A Brief History of Cotton-Eye Joe:
The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly", published by Utzig, Nov. 26, 2021
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wBWvbgwczI talks about how the 1882 example of
"Cotton Eyed Joe" is racist, in part, because of the collector's use
of "Black vernacular". That vlogger also noted that the collector of
the earliest known lyrics to "Cotton Eyed Joe" was racist because she
was White and grew up on a Southern plantation and she wrote about how
wonderful it was to grow up on a plantation.
The conclusion that that example was racist because of the
race and societal beliefs of the collector implies that that collector wrote
the complete song or changed some words of that song. That may or may not have
been true for that particular example, but it definitely was true for other
examples just because of the nature of folk music. The question is were words
in 19th century examples of "Cotton Eyed Joe" sometimes changed or
added to fit racist beliefs of White people? Maybe and probably.
**
Some versions of "Cotton Eyed Joe" include what is commonly referred to now as "the n word" .That word may be fully spelled out in those versions or a no longer used abbreviated three letter form of that word ("nig") might be used.
Whether the use of those referents is considered or
perceived as racist or not may depend on the performers' race/s, the audiences'
race/s, and what races these people think the characters in the song had/have.
What a word literally means and its connotations can change
depending on the race of the persons the song is about (and your race/your
experiences). The meanings and connotations of a population referent also can
change over a period of time.
(I'm African American and I definitely don't approve of or
use the n word. However, I don't necessarily
think it's racist when Black people use it, but I am more inclined to consider
it ill advised if not racist when non-Black people use it.)
It should also be noted that African American university
professor/folklorist Thomas W. Talley's 1922 collection Negro Folk Rhymes: Wise & Otherwise includes several examples of songs that include "nig" and
"ni--er" as referents for some other Black people, if not as
self-referents. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/27195/27195-h/27195-h.htm I don't consider those examples to be racist.
**
Some people believe that "Cotton Eyed Joe" is racist because it was sung by White black faced minstrels. However, (as discussed by some commenters in the Mudcat folk music thread given above, "Cotton Eyed Joe" may not have been a part of minstrel shows.
**
I believe that some versions of "Cotton Eyed Joe"
contain subtle racist lyrics. For example, given the history and culture of the
US and the rest of the Western world in the 19th and 20th century, I believe
that the lyrics to the example that is included in Dorothy Scarborough's 1925
On The Trail Of Negro Folksong's book "her skin was black but her teeth
were white has a built in assumption that the color white is/was better than
black.
I wouldn't be surprised if White people added the descriptions of
"Cotton Eyed Joe" as being ugly. Perhaps those descriptions support
the narrative of a jilted lover who is insulting the man who stole his woman
away. But seems weird to me that such an ugly man would have gotten that woman
(not to mention other women).
**
Furthermore, I believe that certain ways that "Cotton
Eyed Joe" songs have been discussed and/or depicted in print and other
media and/or performed are racist.
For example, the Mudcat member with the screen name Lighter,
29 Dec 18 - 12:33 PM, https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=18326 Cotton Eyed
Joe History cited a number of 19th century newspaper reviews about performances
of "Cotton Eyed Joe" including this one:
"Newberry (S. Carolina) Herald and News (Apr. 20, 1892):
"His sable owner rolls his eyes up in gratitude for his
mule's convalescence, leaving only the whites exposed; which reminds us of that
good old song, 'Cotton-eyed Joe.' "
-snip-
The word "sable" in that newspaper review referred
to the person being Black. Rolling ones eyes so that the whites of the eye are
prominent was a 19th century and 20th century custom in the stereotypical
depictions of Black Americans people. I
could ask why that action made the reviewer think of "Cotton Eyed
Joe", but it certainly suggests that White people who sang that song were
known to act like black faced minstrels (even though that song technically may
not have been a staple of black faced minstrel shows.
**
Another much more recent example of "black faced"
and "Cotton Eyed Joe" is a man in the cover photograph of Isaac Payton Sweat-Cotton Eyed
Joe/Schottische, published by sc lawman, Oct. 14, 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ozoJw6fnqQ.
The lyrics for that version of "Cotton Eyed Joe" aren't racist toward Black people, but there's no definitely that the Swedish music group Rednex's
1994 hit version of "Cotton Eye Joe" is stereotypical of White
Americans. Click
https://americansongwriter.com/the-meaning-behind-cotton-eye-joe/ to read
information about the Swedish band Rednex.
**
I believe that a subtle form of racism is the fact that
contemporary online research about the song "Cotton Eye Joe" pay much
more attention to White American folklorist Dorothy Scarborough whose book On
The Trail Of Negro Folk Rhymes was written in 1925 over African American
folklorist Thomas W. Talley whose book Negro Folk Rhymes: Wise And Otherwise
was written in 1922.
For example, Huffington Post's 2015 article Cotton-Eyed Joe:
Where Did He Come From, Where Did He Go? written by Sarah Bolotz https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cotton-eyed-joe-origins_n_55b8ffade4b0a13f9d1b1b15
refers to Dorothy Scarborough's collection of "Cotton Eyed Joe songs in
its third paragraph and devotes three more paragraphs to Scarborough's
examples. In contrast Thomas W. Talley is mentioned in paragraph seven of that
article. His example is only given as a hyperlink.
Also, the example of "Cotton Eyed Joe" that Thomas
W. Talley collected isn't even mentioned in the YouTube vlog "A Brief
History of Cotton-Eye Joe: The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly", published by
Utzig, Nov. 26, 2021 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wBWvbgwczI or in the YouTube vlog "History & Drama behind
Cotton-Eyed Joe" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3n444gbzf8 , published by Emagination
Productions, Feb. 14, 2022. However, both of those YouTube vlogs pay
considerable attention to Dorothy Scarborough's collection of "Cotton Eyed
Joe" songs.
I believe that Thomas W. Talley's example is given short
shrift or is completely overlooked in these contemporary reviews of this song
is because Talley's example is about the "Cotton Eyed Joe tune/dance .
Therefore, the version of "Cotton Eyed Joe" that Talley collected
doesn't fit the narrative that these contemporary reviews/videos focus on with
its story of jilted lovers and its "Where did he come from and where did
he go" mystery.
That 19th century examples of "Cotton Eyed Joe"
that were composed of "floating verses" from African American &
White American folk songs also isn't mentioned in most contemporary reviews of
"Cotton Eyed Joe" songs. Those examples are rarely a part of
contemporary discussions about that song (except on folk music forums such as
Mudcat). That's probably because those examples aren't well known.
**
I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about
these points. Please add them in the comment section below
****
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