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Tuesday, November 29, 2022

Doja Cat's 2022 Hip Hop/Pop Song "Vegas" & How It Samples Big Mama Thornton's 1953 R&B Song "Hound Dog"



Doja Cat, June 3, 2022
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Total # of views as of Nov. 29, 2022 at 9:08 AM ET - 78,553,088

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Edited by Azizi Powell 

This pancocojams post presents information about Doja Cat and showcases the official YouTube video of for her song "Vegas"*. 

This pancocojams post also includes two online excerpts about Doja Cat's song "Vegas".

The content of this post is presented for cultural, entertainment, and aesthetic purposes.

All copyrights remains with their owners.

Thanks to Doja Cat for her musical accomplishments. Thanks to all those who are associated with this song and this video. 

RIP to singer/actress Shonka Dukureh who portrayed Big Mama Thornton in the movie "Elvis", who is sampled in Doja Cat's song "Vegas", and who appears in the official YouTube video of that song. Shonka Dukureh (age 44 years) died of natural causes on July 22, 2022 https://www.imdb.com/name/nm12860265/
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Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2022/11/big-mama-thorntons-rhythm-blues-song.html for the closely related pancocojams post entitled Big Mama Thornton's Rhythm & Blues Song "Hound Dog" And Elvis Presley's Rock 'N Roll Song "Hound Dog" (YouTube videos & article excerpts).
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WARNING - Doja Cat's song "Vegas"  includes references that may be considered risqué (sexually suggestive).  YouTube features several sound files of 
Doja Cat's song "Vegas" as "clean lyrics". This indicates that some people believe that this song includes lyrics that are "dirty". 

In addition, the official video of Doja Cat's "Vegas" includes what I consider to be sexually suggestive dancing.

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INFORMATION ABOUT DOJA CAT
Source #1
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doja_Cat
"Amala Ratna Zandile Dlamini (born October 21, 1995), known professionally as Doja Cat (…DOH-jə), is an American rapper and singer. Born and raised in Los Angeles, California, she began making and releasing music on SoundCloud as a teenager

[…]

Described by The Wall Street Journal as "a skilled technical rapper with a strong melodic sense and a bold visual presence",[1] Doja Cat is known for creating music videos and songs that achieve popularity on social media websites such as TikTok. She is also well-versed in internet culture herself, and is famed for her absurdly humorous personality and online presence.[2][3][4][5] Doja Cat has received numerous accolades throughout her career, including one Grammy Award from sixteen nominations, five Billboard Music Awards, five American Music Awards, and three MTV Video Music Awards.

[…]

Stage name and persona

As a teenager in 2012, Doja Cat gained her stage name from one of her cats as well as her favorite strain of marijuana, stating, "I was heavily addicted to weed and weed culture, so when I began rapping I thought of the word 'doja' and how it sounds like a girl's name."*[10] She has since expressed slight disdain towards the name and the persona that it carries, stating in November 2021 that "my image was the pothead hippie girl, and I'm not that."[41]

Musical style and themes

Doja Cat's music has been described as hip hop,[187][191] pop,[9] R&B,[191] and pop rap.[195] …

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Source #2
From https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/doja-cat-dr-luke-name-say-so-1270855/ Doja Cat Almost Worked With Billie Eilish, Doesn’t Need to Work With Dr. Luke Again, and 11 Other Things You Didn’t Know About Her" by EJ Dickson, December 16, 2021
..."She’s not a huge fan of her stage name. Doja’s stage name derives from both her love of felines (she has two, Alex and Ray) and a marijuana strain (she has since quit smoking weed). But she says she doesn’t love her name, and has in fact tried to change it a few times over the years. An old manager convinced her not to. “My image was the pothead hippie girl, and I’m not that,” she says. “[SNL] made a joke the other day that Doja Cat sounds like a Pokémon. And, you know, it didn’t hurt my feelings, but it definitely hurt my feelings.” "…

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INFORMATION ABOUT THE SONG "VEGAS" BY DOJA CAT
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegas_(Doja_Cat_song)
"  "Vegas" is a song by American rapper and singer Doja Cat. It was released through Kemosabe Records and RCA Records as the lead single from the soundtrack for Baz Luhrmann's Elvis Presley biopic, Elvis, on May 6, 2022.[1] The song was produced by Rogét Chahayed and Yeti Beats. It interpolates a sample of Shonka Dukureh's recording of the song "Hound Dog", which was written by Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, first recorded by Big Mama Thornton (who Dukureh plays in the film) in 1952 and notably covered by Presley.[2] The official music video for the song was released on June 2, 2022.[3]

Composition

The song's lyrics refer to a man who was an "underwhelming lover"[4] whom Doja Cat feels "never deserved her attention".[5]

[…]

Commercial performance

"Vegas" peaked at number ten on the US Billboard Hot 100, becoming Doja's seventh top-ten single. The song also reached number one on the Pop Songs chart, making it the first solo soundtrack song to reach the top of that chart since Justin Timberlake's "Can't Stop the Feeling!" in 2016. It also makes her the artist with the most number ones on Pop Songs this decade among women.[7]

[…]

Songwriter(s)   

Amala Dlamini, Rogét Chahayed, David Sprecher, Jerry Leiber, Mike Stoller”
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Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller wrote the 1952 Rhythm & Blues song "Hound Dog". That song  was first performed by Big Mama Thornton in 1953. "It ["Hound Dog"] was simultaneously number one on the US pop, country, and R&B charts in 1956, and it topped the pop chart for 11 weeks — a record that stood for 36 years." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hound_Dog_(song)

Click https://genius.com/Doja-cat-vegas-lyrics for the complete lyrics to Doja Cat's song "Vegas". 

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ARTICLE EXCERPT ABOUT DOJA CAT'S SONG "VEGAS"
From  https://www.vulture.com/article/doja-cat-vegas-hound-dog-elvis-big-mama-thornton.html "The Complicated History of ‘Hound Dog’ Converges in Doja Cat’s ‘Vegas’" by Charlie Harding and Nate Sloan, July 28, 2022

But if you’re hearing a lot more “Hound Dog” these days, you might look to Doja Cat’s hit song “Vegas,” which updates — and interpolates — one of Elvis’s signature songs for contemporary listeners. But what the Doja Cat version actually samples is the original Big Mama Thornton rendition from 1953.

Presley is frequently said to have stolen Thornton’s song, which was written by acclaimed songwriting team Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller (whose credits include Presley’s “Jailhouse Rock”). Thornton’s is a sauntering blues song with a raunchy tale about a two-timing man; Presley’s take features tepid lyrics about an actual dog, radically changing the groove.

But in an interview last month with Rolling Stone, Stoller said Presley didn’t steal the song at all. (A number of lawsuits swirled around the record — “Hound Dog” is often cited as one of the most litigated songs in history.) Rather, he adapted one of its many covers — specifically, the version performed by the Las Vegas lounge act Freddie Bell and the Bellboys, whose “Hound Dog” borrows its upbeat rhythm from yet another cover,” Rufus Thomas’s “Bear Cat.” It has a similar rhythm to the one we hear on the contemporary Doja Cat version, “Vegas,” which heavily features samples of Thornton’s vocals — as performed by the late Shonka Dukureh, who portrays Thornton in the film. Listening closely reveals a song that synthesizes the complicated musical history of “Hound Dog” by uniting the best parts of its many versions.

Listen to the latest episode of Switched On Pop as hosts Nate Sloan and Charlie Harding dig into the long legacy of “Hound Dog” and all its echoes through time.

[A sound file of this podcast is given in this article.]

Songs Discussed [in that podcast] 

➼Big Mama Thornton: “Hound Dog”

➼Elvis Presley: “Hound Dog”

➼Doja Cat: “Vegas”

➼Rufus Thomas: “Bear Cat”

➼TLC: “No Scrubs”

➼Jack Harlow: “Dua Lipa””…
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The words given in brackets are written by me for explanatory purposes. 

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Visitor comments are welcome. 


Monday, November 28, 2022

Big Mama Thornton's Rhythm & Blues Song "Hound Dog" And Elvis Presley's Rock 'N Roll Song "Hound Dog" (YouTube videos & article excerpts)



Rock n Roll, July 30, 2020


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Edited by Azizi Powell

This  pancocojams post showcases a YouTube video of Big Mama Thornton and a YouTube video of Elvis Presley performing their versions of the song "Hound Dog".

This pancocojams post presents information about the song "Hound Dog" from its Wikipedia page. This post also presents an excerpt of a 2021 Washington Post article about the song "Hound Dog" .

A link to biographical information about Big Mama Thornton and a link to the lyrics for Big Mama Thornton's version of  that song are included in this post.

A link to biographical information about Elvis Presley and a link to the lyrics for Elvis Presley's  version of  that song are also included in this post.

In addition, this pancocojams post includes a link to the Wikipedia page for Leiber and Stroller, the composers of the original "Hound Dog" song.   

The content of this post is presented for historical, cultural, entertainment, and aesthetic purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, the composers of the song "Hound Dog" and thanks to Big Mama Thornton and Elvis Presley for their musical legacies. Thanks to all those who are associated with these videos and thanks to all those who are quoted in this post. Thanks also to the publishers of these videos on YouTube.
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Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2022/11/doja-cat-vegas-its-sampling-of-big-mama.html for a closely related pancocojams post entitled "Doja Cat's 2022 Hip Hop/Pop Song "Vegas" & How It Samples Big Mama Thornton's 1953 R&B Song "Hound Dog" ".

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SHOWCASE VIDEO #2: Elvis Presley "Hound Dog" (October 28, 1956) on The Ed Sullivan Show



The Ed Sullivan Show,  Sep 9, 2020
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INFORMATION ABOUT THE SONG "HOUND DOG"
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hound_Dog_(song)
"Hound Dog" is a twelve-bar blues song written by Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller. Recorded originally by Big Mama Thornton on August 13, 1952, in Los Angeles and released by Peacock Records in late February 1953, "Hound Dog" was Thornton's only hit record, selling over 500,000 copies, spending 14 weeks in the R&B charts, including seven weeks at number one. Thornton's recording of "Hound Dog" is listed as one of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame's "500 Songs That Shaped Rock and Roll", and was inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame in February 2013.

"Hound Dog" has been recorded more than 250 times. The best-known version is the July 1956 recording by Elvis Presley, which ranked number 19 on Rolling Stone's list of the 500 Greatest Songs of All Time in 2004, but was excluded from the revised list in 2021; it is also one of the best-selling singles of all time. Presley's version, which sold about 10 million copies globally, was his best-selling song and "an emblem of the rock 'n' roll revolution". It was simultaneously number one on the US pop, country, and R&B charts in 1956, and it topped the pop chart for 11 weeks — a record that stood for 36 years. Presley's 1956 RCA recording was inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame in 1988, and it is listed as one of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame's "500 Songs That Shaped Rock and Roll".

"Hound Dog" has been at the center of controversies and several lawsuits, including disputes over authorship, royalties, and copyright infringement by the many answer songs released by such artists as Rufus Thomas and Roy Brown. From the 1970s onward, the song has been featured in numerous films, including Grease, Forrest Gump, Lilo & Stitch, A Few Good Men, Hounddog, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and Nowhere Boy.

[…]

Big Mama Thornton's version (1952/53)

Thornton's recording of "Hound Dog" is credited with "helping to spur the evolution of black R&B into rock music".[7] Brandeis University professor Stephen J. Whitefield, in his 2001 book In Search of American Jewish Culture, regards "Hound Dog" as a marker of "the success of race-mixing in music a year before the desegregation of public schools was mandated" in Brown v. Board of Education.[17] Leiber regarded the original recording by the 350-pound "blues belter" Big Mama Thornton as his favorite version,[15][18] while Stoller said, "If I had to name my favorite recordings, I'd say they are Big Mama Thornton's 'Hound Dog' and Peggy Lee's 'Is That All There Is?'"[19]...
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Click https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mama_Thornton for biographical information about (African American) Big Mama Thornton.(December 11, 1926 – July 25, 1984), 

Click https://genius.com/Big-mama-thornton-hound-dog-lyrics for the lyrics for Big Mama Thornton's Rhythm & Blues version of "Hound Dog".

Click https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley for biographical information about (White American) Elvis Presley (January 8, 1935 – August 16, 1977),

Click https://genius.com/Elvis-presley-hound-dog-lyrics for the lyrics for Elvis Presley's Rock 'N Roll version of "Hound Dog".
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Click https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Leiber_and_Mike_Stoller for information about (White American) song writers and record producing partners  Jerry Leiber (April 25, 1933 – August 22, 2011) and Mike Stroller.(born March 13, 1933).


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EXCERPT OF WASHINGTON POST'S 2021 ARTICLE ABOUT THE SONG "HOUND DOG"
From https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/blues-singer-big-mama-thornton-had-a-hit-with-hound-dog-then-elvis-came-along/2021/02/23/60c36a04-6764-11eb-8468-21bc48f07fe5_story.html Blues singer ‘Big Mama’ Thornton had a hit with ‘Hound Dog.’ Then Elvis came along.

After the “king of rock-and-roll” recorded a version, Thornton’s original was largely forgotten.

By Haben Kelati, February 24, 2021 at 8:00 a.m. EST
"Imagine you have a good idea, but someone copies it and gets more credit. That’s basically what happened to rhythm-and-blues singer Willie Mae “Big Mama” Thornton with her song “Hound Dog.” If you know the song, you might only know “King of Rock-and-Roll” Elvis Presley’s version. But before the song helped Elvis’s career skyrocket, it was a big hit for Thornton.

Wille Mae “Big Mama” Thornton recorded “Hound Dog,” a song written for her, in 1952. It climbed to Number 1 on the Billboard rhythm and blues music charts. When Elvis Presley recorded it a few years later, the song helped his career skyrocket. Decades later, the song is still associated with Elvis. (Michael Ochs Archives/Getty)

Thornton, who was born in Ariton, Alabama, in 1926, signed with Peacock Records in 1951. She stood out when compared with other female singers. Nearly six feet tall and 200 pounds, she got the nickname “Big Mama.”

“She had this tough exterior, and she had this very powerful voice which made her also seem very tough,” says Maureen Mahon, a music professor at New York University. ...

“Sometimes she would wear a dress or gown, but she also liked to wear what people would refer to as men’s clothes,” Mahon says.

Watching Thornton sing inspired Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller to write “Hound Dog” for her in 1952. Thornton recorded it with a growl emphasizing the frustration that the song lyrics suggest — coping with a boyfriend who is also dating someone else.

Thornton had moderate success with the song in 1953. It reached Number 1 on the Billboard rhythm-and-blues chart. Several musicians recorded their own versions, but none had much success until Elvis.

The 21-year-old performer had heard a version of the song in early 1956 with some of the words changed. (It was about a dog, not a man.) Elvis decided to record it. His recording climbed to the top of the Billboard Hot 100 chart and stayed there for 11 weeks.

The song is seen as an important beginning of rock-and-roll, especially in its use of the guitar as the key instrument, according to Mahon.

[...]

 Elvis was able to get his version to wider audiences than Thornton, in part because he was a White man, according to Gayle Wald, professor of American studies and English literature at George Washington University. He had hit songs by 1956, but he also had access to larger, mainstream markets.

…. Because of the way race works in the United States, Elvis got accolades” for “Hound Dog,” Wald says. “He received exposure and celebrity and praise for it.”

[...]

Thornton’s influence on Elvis and American popular music as a whole is an important part of her legacy.”…

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Visitor comments are welcome.


Sunday, November 27, 2022

Solomon Burke - "Cry To Me (1962 Soul music song with a 2002 video, information, and lyrics)



TheGRStars, Jan 24, 2013

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Edited by Azizi Powell This pancocojams post presents information about the American music genre known as Soul music, as well as information about Solomon Burke, a key singer in the emergence of Soul music in the 1960s. This post showcases a YouTube video of Solomon Burke singing his hit song "Cry To Me". Information about the Soul music song "Cry To Me" and information about that song's writer/producer Bert Berns are also included in this post. In addition, this pancocojams post includes the lyrics for "Cry To Me" as sung by Solomon Burke. The content of this post is presented for cultural, historical, entertainment, and aesthetic purposes. All copyrights remain with their owners. Thanks to the musical legacy of Solomon Burke. Thanks also to the musical legacy of Bert Berns. Thanks also to all those who are quoted in this post and thanks to the publisher of this video on YouTube. **** INFORMATION ABOUT SOUL MUSIC
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_music "
Soul music is a popular music genre that originated in the African American community throughout the United States in the late 1950s and early 1960s.[2] It has its roots in African-American gospel music, rhythm and blues.[3] Soul music became popular for dancing and listening, where U.S. record labels such as Motown, Atlantic and Stax were influential during the Civil Rights Movement. Soul also became popular around the world, directly influencing rock music and the music of Africa.[4] It also had a resurgence with artists like Erykah Badu under the genre neo-soul.[5]

According to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, soul is "music that arose out of the black experience in America through the transmutation of gospel and rhythm & blues into a form of funky, secular testifying".[6] Catchy rhythms, stressed by handclaps and extemporaneous body moves, are an important feature of soul music. Other characteristics are a call and response between the lead vocalist and the chorus and an especially tense vocal sound.[7] The style also occasionally uses improvisational additions, twirls and auxiliary sounds.[7] Soul music reflects the African-American identity and it stresses the importance of an African-American culture. The new-found African-American consciousness led to new styles of music, which boasted pride in being black.[8]

Soul music dominated the U.S. R&B chart in the 1960s, and many recordings crossed over into the pop charts in the U.S., Britain, and elsewhere. By 1968, the soul music genre had begun to splinter. Some soul artists developed funk music, while other singers and groups developed slicker, more sophisticated, and in some cases more politically conscious varieties.[9] By the early 1970s, soul music had been influenced by psychedelic and progressive rock, among other genres, leading to psychedelic and progressive soul. The United States saw the development of neo soul around 1994. There are also several other subgenres and offshoots of soul music.

The key subgenres of soul include the Motown style, a more pop-friendly and rhythmic style; deep soul and southern soul, driving, energetic soul styles combining R&B with southern gospel music sounds; Memphis soul, a shimmering, sultry style; New Orleans soul, which came out of the rhythm and blues style; Chicago soul, a lighter gospel-influenced sound; Philadelphia soul, a lush orchestral sound with doo-wop-inspired vocals; as well as psychedelic soul, a blend of psychedelic rock and soul music.

[...]

Writer Peter Guralnick is among those to identify Solomon Burke as a key figure in the emergence of soul music, and Atlantic Records as the key record label. Burke's early 1960s songs, including "Cry to Me", "Just Out of Reach" and "Down in the Valley" are considered classics of the genre. Guralnick wrote:

"Soul started, in a sense, with the 1961 success of Solomon Burke's "Just Out Of Reach". Ray Charles, of course, had already enjoyed enormous success (also on Atlantic), as had James Brown and Sam Cooke — primarily in a pop vein. Each of these singers, though, could be looked upon as an isolated phenomenon; it was only with the coming together of Burke and Atlantic Records that you could begin to see anything even resembling a movement."[24]...

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INFORMATION ABOUT SOLOMAN BURKE
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Burke 
"
Solomon Vincent McDonald Burke (born James Solomon McDonald, March 21, 1936 or 1940 – October 10, 2010) was an American singer who shaped the sound of rhythm and blues as one of the founding fathers of soul music in the 1960s.[2] He has been called "a key transitional figure bridging R&B and soul",[3] and was known for his "prodigious output".[4][5][6]

He had a string of hits including "Cry to Me", "If You Need Me", "Got to Get You Off My Mind", "Down in the Valley", and "Everybody Needs Somebody to Love". Burke was referred to honorifically as "King Solomon", the "King of Rock 'n' Soul", "Bishop of Soul", and the "Muhammad Ali of soul".[7][8][1] Due to his minimal chart success in comparison to other soul music greats such as James Brown, Wilson Pickett, and Otis Redding, Burke has been described as the genre's "most unfairly overlooked singer" of its golden age.[9] Atlantic Records executive Jerry Wexler referred to Burke as "the greatest male soul singer of all time".[1][8][10]

Burke's most famous recordings, which spanned five years in the early 1960s, bridged the gap between mainstream R&B and grittier R&B.[11] Burke was "a singer whose smooth, powerful articulation and mingling of sacred and profane themes helped define soul music in the early 1960s."[12] He drew from his roots—gospel, jazz, country, and blues—as well as developing his own style at a time when R&B, and rock were both still in their infancy.[13] Described as both "Rabelaisian"[14] and also as a "spiritual enigma",[15] "perhaps more than any other artist, the ample figure of Solomon Burke symbolized the ways that spirituality and commerce, ecstasy and entertainment, sex and salvation, individualism and brotherhood, could blend in the world of 1960s soul music."[16]

During the 55 years that he performed professionally, Burke released 38 studio albums on at least 17 record labels and had 35 singles that charted in the US, including 26 singles that made the Billboard R&B charts. In 2001, Burke was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a performer. His album Don't Give Up on Me won the Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Blues Album at the 45th Annual Grammy Awards in 2003. By 2005 Burke was credited with selling 17 million albums.[13][17][18] Rolling Stone ranked Burke as No. 89 on its 2008 list of "100 Greatest Singers of All Time".[19]...
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Solomon Burke was African American.

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INFORMATION ABOUT BERT BERNS
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Berns
"Bertrand Russell Berns (November 8, 1929 – December 30, 1967), also known as Bert Russell and (occasionally) Russell Byrd, was an American songwriter and record producer of the 1960s.[1] His songwriting credits include "Twist and Shout", "Piece of My Heart", "Here Comes the Night", "Hang on Sloopy", "Cry to Me" and "Everybody Needs Somebody to Love", and his productions include "Baby, Please Don't Go", "Brown Eyed Girl" and "Under the Boardwalk"...

[...]

Early life

Born in the Bronx, New York City, to Russian Jewish immigrants, Berns contracted rheumatic fever as a child, an illness that damaged his heart and would mark the rest of his life, resulting in his early death. Turning to music, he found enjoyment in the sounds of his African American and Latino neighbors. As a young man, Berns danced in mambo nightclubs, and made his way to Havana before the Cuban Revolution.[2]: 23 

Music career

Beginnings (1960–1963)

Shortly after his return from Cuba, Berns began a seven-year run from an obscure Brill Building songwriter to owner of his own record labels. He signed as a $50/week (equivalent to $500 in 2021) songwriter with Robert Mellin Music at 1650 Broadway in 1960. His first hit record was "A Little Bit of Soap", performed by the Jarmels on Laurie Records in 1961. Berns himself had a short-lived career as a recording artist, and in 1961, under the name "Russell Byrd", Berns scored his only Billboard Hot 100 appearance with his own composition, "You'd Better Come Home", which peaked at Number 50.[3] That song would later be recorded by the Isley Brothers, and featured as the B-side of their 1962 single "Twistin' With Linda". Also in 1962, the Isley Brothers recorded "Twist and Shout" on Wand Records, written by Berns and Phil Medley.[1] Berns also hit the charts in late 1962 with the Exciters' "Tell Him" on United Artists, and with Solomon Burke's "Cry to Me" on Atlantic Records....

Atlantic Records (1963–1965)

Berns's early work with Solomon Burke brought him to the attention of Atlantic label chiefs Ahmet Ertegun and Jerry Wexler. In 1963, Berns replaced Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller as staff producer at Atlantic, where he wrote and produced hits for Solomon Burke ("Everybody Needs Somebody to Love"), the Drifters ("Under the Boardwalk" and "Saturday Night at the Movies"), Barbara Lewis ("Baby I'm Yours" and "Make Me Your Baby"), Little Esther Phillips ("Hello Walls," written by Willie Nelson), Ben E. King, Wilson Pickett and LaVern Baker.[1]
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Bert Berns was a White American. 

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LYRICS - CRY TO ME
(written by Bert Berns, 1961 and first performed by Solomon Burke, 1962)

[Verse 1]
When your baby leaves you all alone
And nobody calls you on the phone
Don't you feel like crying?
Don't you feel like crying?
Well, here I am, my honey
C'mon, you cry to me

[Verse 2]
When you're all alone in your lonely room
And there's nothing but the smell of her perfume
Don't you feel like crying?
Don't you feel like crying?
Don't you feel like crying?
C'mon, c'mon, cry to me

[Bridge]
Whoa, nothing can be sadder than a glass of wine alone
Loneliness, loneliness, such a waste of time, oh oh yes
You don't ever have to walk alone, you see
Come on take my hand, and baby, won't you walk with me?
Whoa yeah

[Verse 3]
When you're waiting for a voice to come
In the night but there's no one
Don't you feel like crying? (Cry to me)
Don't you feel like crying? (Cry to me)
Don't you feel like cr-cr-cr-cr-cr-cr-cry (Cry to me) cr-cr-cr-cr-cr-cr-crying? (Cry to me)
Don't you feel like cr-cr-cr-cr-cr-cr-cry (Cry to me) cr-cr-cr-cr-cr-cr-crying?


online source: https://genius.com/Solomon-burke-cry-to-me-lyrics

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Visitor comments are welcome. 


What Some Latinos, Indigenous Central Americans, & Others Think About Namor ("Black Panther: Wakanda Forever" Character)



Marvel Entertainment, Nov. 1, 2022

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Edited by Azizi Powell

This pancocojams post showcases a YouTube video that presents a clip of the fictitious character
Namor in the 2022 United States movie Black Panther: Wakanda Forever.

This post also presents some of the comments from that video's discussion thread and another discussion thread about Namor. I'm particularly interested in quoting some of those comments from Indigenous people and/or Latinos which refer to how the character of Namor speaks to and impacts issues of ethnicity, nationality, race, positive self-esteem and group esteem for those populations.

The content of this post is presented for socio-cultural and entertainment purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to all those who are associated with the movie Black Panther: Wakanda Forever and thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
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Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2022/11/black-panther-wakanda-forever-without.html for the related pancocojams post entitled 
"Black Panther: Wakanda Forever" Without T'Challa (selected discussion thread comments) SPOILER ALERT

Also, click https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther:_Wakanda_Forever for information about this movie which was first released on October 26, 2022 (Hollywood) and Nov. 11, 2022 (United States). Here's a brief excerpt of that page:
"
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever is a 2022 American superhero film based on the Marvel Comics character Black Panther. Produced by Marvel Studios and distributed by Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures, it is the sequel to Black Panther (2018) and the 30th film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU). Directed by Ryan Coogler, who co-wrote the screenplay with Joe Robert Cole....

Ideas for a sequel began after the release of Black Panther in February 2018. Coogler negotiated to return as director in the following months, and Marvel Studios officially confirmed the sequel's development in mid-2019. Plans for the film changed in August 2020 when Black Panther star Chadwick Boseman died from colon cancer, with Marvel choosing not to recast his role of T'Challa"...

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SELECTED COMMENTS ABOUT NAMOR

DISCUSSION THREAD #1
from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o77h301-VIE [This is the discussion thread for the video that is showcased in this pancocojams post.]

All of these comments are from November 2022. Numbers are added for referencing purposes only.
 
These comments are given in relative chronological order with the oldest published comments given first except for replies. 

1. mike shaw
"Huge respect to Marvel/Disney and Ryan Coogler for making these films such a beautiful representation of indigenous people in Africa and Central America. More of this, please!"

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2.  Anthony D
"I love that they are changing Namor's origin to this, instead of him being Atlantan.  Also giving Tenoch Huerta this role is going to inspire many people.  Representation matters!"

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3. Carlos Collects Comics
"Can’t wait to see this film!  I’ve been waiting since 2018 to see a Hispanic Superhero introduced and done with dignity and respect.  Means the world to be able to take my son, daughters and nephews and niece to see this movie and see our faces finally represented on the screen."

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4. Marcus Hamner
"One of the original characters in Marvel Comics finally brought to life in the MCU.  I hope he says his war cry: “IMPERIUS REX!”  Tenoch Huerta is perfect as Namor and you can tell he studied Namor very well to play the character.  🤓👊🏾🤍🤍🌊🌊🌊:

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5. Familia Castañeda
"This honestly bring me to tears, im so glad my kids get to see someone who looks like them on the big screen with super powers. Viva mi jente."
-snip-
Google translate from Spanish to English: "Long live my people" [A commenter corrected the word "jente" for "gente"}

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6. Rodrigo Fortis
"As a Mexican Native American with Maya and Aztec blood running in my veins, this make me so emotional. Ryan Coogler and team didn't have to do this, they didn't have the make Namor Mezo Native American and create this beautiful world. Whoever cast Tenoch is brilliant he is perfect. I already knew I was gonna be crying because of Chadwick and the huge hole he left but they added my culture on top I'll be sobbing the whole film. Thank you Ryan Coogler and everyone involve in this film. African American and Hispanics We must stand together!! Chadwick would have love this."

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7. Todd79
"They were in central central too not just in Mexico"

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8. Rodrigo Barba
"As a Mexican and a Marvel fan its awesome to see my heritage represented in such a creative way in the MCU. Shout out to Coogler. I never would of imagined to see Namor and his people mixed with Aztec heritage on the big screen. Super interesting take on his character

Edit:

Dang, didn't mean to trigger so many people 😕.  Social media can really be a toxic environment.

Regardless,  looking forward to the movie. Peace."

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9. pedro Elias
"Its mayan my friend¡  not Aztec¡¡¡   ;)"

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10. Naleen Phimmasone
"I hate that people are trying to gatekeep Namor by saying it's not accurate to the comics. Yet when we have like dozens upon dozens of versions of characters like Superman and Batman they don't bat an eye."

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11. Gamer God
"Honestly i agree too, they made namor way cooler with this mix of aztec mythology, and the aztec myths are awesome as hell"

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12. orgzephplayz newtwinnotzeph
"Same it's great to see a movie about each of our pasts Aztec inca Mayan 3 parts of the past of mexico is awesome"

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13. midoriya _izumi
"@pedro Elias  Oh it is Aztec, Ryan Coogler said so."

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14. C. Nova88
"Mayan not aztec."

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15. Isiah Niyah
"It's for the 1st Indigenous people!!!💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾....wish we could actually get some full native people playing some of the roles in this movie"

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16. chineishon

chineishon
"@orgzephplayz newtwinnotzeph  the incas are from peru not from Mexico"

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17. chineishon
"@midoriya _izumi  they call namor kukulkan thats maya not nahuatl"

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18. midoriya _izumi
"@chineishon  Just searched for it, yes, my apologies, only now I learned that Kukulcán would then be known as Quetzalcoatl by the Aztecs, but chronologically, yes, Mayan."

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19. alex
"Guys it’s both Mayan and Aztec. It’s touching on mesoamerican culture which includes both in a unique mix"

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20. Derek Villegas
"@midoriya _izumi  yeah it does this has a bit of both since the talokan or Tlālōcān as it is actually pronounced is a paradise from Aztec mythology while  the Kukulkan is a Mayan serpent god. It’s kinda how the Roman mythology has very similar mythologies to the Greek. To the point they have their own version Heracles named Hercules."

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20. Paulo Corleone SEP
"O NAMOR É FODA!👍🏼

 TALOKAN FOREVER!👑"

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21. Gabe Casillas
"Very interesting name, sometimes mistaken for  Quetzalcoatl. Essentially, Quetzalcoatl and Kukulcan are different names for the same serpent feathered creator god. Quetzalcoatl is the Aztec name, Kukulcan is the Maya name. He also had other names such as Gucumatz and Ehecatl. Awesome character 💯👍

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22. GINO BLACK OFFICIAL
"I find it so odd and divisive that people are in these comments arguing over Mayan VS Aztec. Why can’t we simply be glad that a person of color gets a starring role in a major motion picture. Just as we black people were happy and proud of BLACK PANTHER 1, I am equally excited to see my brown brothers and sisters being represented as well. This is a HUGE DEAL! Hollywood always says films starring black and/or Latinos “DON’T PERFORM WELL GLOBALLY”, this film will once again prove that Caucasian Myth to be false."

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23. Rodrigo Barba
"@GINO BLACK OFFICIAL  Thanks for this. Never thought my comment would be so divisive. Just happy to see a Mexican representing in the MCU lol"

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24. Todd79
"those cultures weren't exclusively from Mexico but also central America too 😏"

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25. Diiego
" @chineishon  it’s already been confirmed to be a mixture of both. Talocan is an aspect from Aztec mythos while Kukulkan is from Mayan mythos, there’s no need to argue, both the Aztec and Mayan cultures are getting represented."

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26. Diiego
" @midoriya _izumi  no need to apologize to them, you weren’t even wrong about the Aztec influences. They’ve already said they’re doing a mixture of both. Kukulkan is Mayan where as Tlalocan is Aztec. This debate is pointless when coogler himself said it but they’ll keep arguing about it at this point 😂"

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27. morgasm26
"Kulkulkan was white even in the original mythos.. that's how Spain conquered the indigenous Mexicans.. did we forget.?"

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28. GINO BLACK OFFICIAL
"@David-Arthur Muland  BLACK PANTHER along with ALL Marvel films have proven to be “for EVERYONE”. Little white children are and have dressed as T’CHALLA for Halloween every year since 2018. EVERYONE loved and loves BLACK PANTHER! Are you not aware of this!!?! or are you simply being divisive?"

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29. GINO BLACK OFFICIAL
" @Rodrigo Barba  Your original comment/post WAS NOT DIVISIVE. I was referring to all of the other comments that followed."

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30. Edhy H
"Namor se ve increíble

Desde ahora estoy viendo a muchos niños que finalmente se sentirán representados

Si plantas buenas ideas en un niño, cosecharás grandes hombres !"
-snip-
Google translate from Spanish to English

namor looks amazing

From now on I am seeing many children who will finally feel represented

If you plant good ideas in a child, you will reap great men!"

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31. Sol T
"The minute I saw the Maya hieroglyphs on the walls during the 1st teaser trailer I couldn’t believe my eyes and then they name dropped Kukulkan and I burst into tears! 🥹 This such a win for Indigenous representation!! Here’s hoping Tenoch Huerta 🇲🇽 and the beautiful Maya actress, Maria Mercedes Coroy 🇬🇹get so many more roles after this! Viva a los pueblos indígenas! ❤️"

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32. Isiah Niyah
"To the first Indigenous people!!!💪🏾💪🏾"

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33. JulisOfTheMist
"Siempre los indígenas! Un abrazo a todo los Latino Americanos !"
-snip-
Google translate from Spanish to English: "Always the natives! A hug to all Latin Americans".
-snip-
"Indigenous" is a more acceptable referent than "natives".

 
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34. Jazlyn Santos
"As a Mayan and the biggest marvel fan I cry every time this trailer comes on the emotion that gets stirred is unreal, I am in love with this take, and to be able to say the first hero/ anti hero/ mutant is now part of me as well 😊 🇲🇽🇲🇽🇲🇽"

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35. Talesin
"Considering DC allready have made an Aquaman movie, i like that they made him Aztec/Mayan instead, to differentiate him from the DC hero.

I would say this is one of the time a drastic character change might actually work really well."
-snip-
"DC" here refers to DC Comics. Click https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaman_(film) for a Wikipedia page about the 2018 American film entitled  Aquaman

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36. Mauricio Amaral-Vázquez
"This is what healing my inner child looks like 🥹 the amount of times I’ve cried out of joy to see representation in the MCU. Latinos, Mexicanos, and Indígenas — all represented in Namor"

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37. Roberto Montelongo
"I'm so excited to see my culture represented in Namor"

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38. L F
"Thank Ryan Coogler for writing this, that's why  representation matters. Many Latino directors NEVER present indigenous peoples in this majestic light because of Colorism in Latin America. It took a black man to open up that door and Ryan casted this man himself seeing him in Narcos. It's nice to see a brown face playing a king not a farm worker or servant like the telenovelas 🙄"

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39. YouTube account
"@L F  they still making us brown people the bad guys in this movie. 😂"

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40. Jesus
"@YouTube account   wow lets not pretend the Mayans didnt do some shady bad stuff back in the day. Namor will be one of the antagonist of the movie that's it. The comic book character has always been in the gray area."

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41. eliminator173
"@TheDoomer  its true. There are no mainstream Latino Marvel heroes so they just threw us a bone and race swapped one."

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42. TheDoomer
"@eliminator173  "Threw you a bone" What kinda self-defeatist, lowkey anti-blackness is this?

You one of them wannabe white Latinos? Ya'll get real bent out of shape when anyone darker than a lunch bag is cast in anything.

You get this bent out of shape when Oscar Isaac was cast as Moonknight? Because last I checked he isn't Jewish. And to your other "point" there's noteable Latin superheroes in Marvel comics. Sam Alexander Nova, Ghost Rider, White Tiger and America Chavez (We just got her in freaking Dr Strange 2) Freakin Salma Hayek was just in Eternals."

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43. YouTube account
" @Jesus  we're talking about a movie, but since you wanna go there, your name is Jesus your ancestors were Spaniards, and they did a lot of messed up things in the past too, more messed up things than the Mayans ever did."

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44. Jesus
"@YouTube account   yep, the past is a very complicated thing, the reality is that's most Mexicans have ancestry from both sides, mesoamerica's destruction was 500 years ago, very few of them survived, they had to mix in order to survive. I love mesoamerican culture and mythos but that's the reality. Very few can say they have "pure" mesoamerican ancestry, and if that person even exists such person will tell you that on an European language. And the next question would be "so what?""

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45. eliminator173
"@Marksman  naw he got race swapped too. In the comics hes a white guy"

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46. Marksman
"@David-Arthur Muland  they won't, but people go and say "oh Namor is latino representation" nah, he is NATIVE/INDIGENOUS representation, and latino is not a race, anyone can be latino doesnt matter what race, that was my point"

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47. Marksman
"@eliminator173 But latino is not a race tho. Oscar Isaac (Moonknight) is White, Tenoch Huerta (Namor) is Native/Indigenous/Amerindian they are both from Latin America sure, doesnt mean they are the same race lol, that's like saying that Don Cheadle and Chris Evans are the same race just bc they are from North America/Anglo America xD"

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48. Marksman
"@Jesus  Oh yeah, "nopal en la frente" is what people use to say in Mexico when someone clearly looks Indigenous.

The double standards is when people go and call black people from any part of the world as black, white people (anglos-mediterraneans etc) as white, asians as asians, (mixed or not they still have those predominant features of said race) but when it comes to us people like to say or call us "hispanic/latino" even "mestizo" (ugh) when we and the actors who are supposed to be the antlanteans in the movie are clearly Native/Amerindian/Indigenous to the Americas, thats what bothers me. Its like there are always these comments and narratives trying to erase our race or pretend that we no longer exist or that we are something new (lol)"

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49.  Diego
"Ahora nos toca en la vida real preservar la cultura y gente indigena de Mexico y todo latino america."
-snip-
Google translate from Spanish to English

"Now we have the responsibility in real life to preserve the indigenous people and culture of Mexico and all of Latin america"

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50. Katina Draper
"@Diego  don't forget us indigenous people in USA, we have 4 tribes that speak Maya language, creek Seminole Choctaw Chickasaw, they say they derived from Mayans that lived in Georgia USA 4000 years ago"

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51. GEO DA MIGO
"FOR THE CULTURA🇲🇽🇲🇽"

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52. Kevin
"As a Central American, I am beyond excited to see Mesoamerica being introduced both in the MCU and to anyone who’s not quite familiar with that part of the word. Also, seeing another Guatemalan artist being part of the MCU fills me with joy."

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 53. Logdawg
"Fr as a Guatemalan it makes me excited to see a mesoamerican superhero"
-snip-
"Fr" = for real

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54. Otherworldly Beauty
"As an Indigenous woman, this portrayal of an Indigenous people was profound. So beautiful and powerful. Thank you!❤"

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55. 
solblackguy
"I have a lot of Hispanic coworkers and I told them about how badass Namor and his culture is portrayed and they all want to see the movie and never watched anything MCU before"

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56. El Rincón del Amarillo
"@solblackguy  He's not representing Hispanic culture though. That's Mayan culture."

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57. solblackguy
"@El Rincón del Amarillo  shhhhhhh, let people enjoy things."

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58. 
-ana-
"@El Rincón del Amarillo  los mayas son latinos y son una de las culturas latinoamericanas nativas, si nos representan en parte. (Eso si, definitivamente representan a México)"
-snip-
Google translate from Spanish to English
"Mayans are Latino and are one of the native Latin American cultures, if they represent us in part. (Yes, they definitely represent Mexico)"

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59. 
Ray
"Shout out to Marvel and Black Panther for not gentrifying The Great Mayan people with actors from a different hue or region. They kept it authentic with Mexican actors and a Mexican-born lead actor who’s definitely going to have their own movie! So dope! Salute. 🤟🏿🤟🏽"

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60. Neo Saints
"im hispanic 🇵🇷🇬🇹 nd this take on the sub-mariner brought me so close to my 🇬🇹 side and my mayan/mesoamerican roots"

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61. Josué Gonzalez-Pirir
"This movie represented the achievements of our people with lots of love and respect, my mother is of Maya Kaqchikel descent and she was crying of how well presented the Maya were which was also emotional for me to appreciate what our people had to do in order to preserve our lineage."

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62. 
KaonProductions05
"I was very skeptical of how they would do his Latin roots after America Chavez, but after the film. Give this man a solo movie!"

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63. Ivonne A. M.
"Watching my culture represented through Namor was deeply moving.   It gave me so much pride and pretty much brought me to tears. Felicidades Tenoch, eres un orgullo. 🤍 Viva México! 🇲🇽"
-snip-
Google translate from Spanish to EnglishCongratulations Tenoch, you are a pride. 🤍 Long live Mexico! 🇲🇽"
-snip-
alternative translation to standard American English: "Congratulations, Tenoch. You make us proud."

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64. IG Villegas
"n
unca he sido fanatica de Marvel, aparte de Hulk y Pantera Negra siempre he sido de DC. Por primera vez pague un boleto de entrada el día de apertura porque es cuando mas cuenta. Tenoch hizo un papel formidable al igual que los otros paisas, me siento mas que orgullosa. Ya era maldita hora de ser representados!! En hora buena!"
-snip-
Google translate from Spanish to English
"I have never been a fan of Marvel, aside from the Hulk and Black Panther I have always been a DC fan. For the first time, pay for an entrance ticket on opening day because that is when it counts the most. Tenoch played a formidable role like the other countries, I feel more than proud. It was damn time to be represented!! Congratulations!"

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65. -ana-
" No soy mexicana, soy colombiana y siento q también representó a toda latinoamerica 👌"
-snip-
Google translate from Spanish to English
"I am not Mexican, I am Colombian and I feel that he* also represented all of Latin America 👌"
-snip-
*Google translate gave the results as “she” instead of “he”. I changed it since I believe that Ana was referring to Namor in her comment.

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66. 
Ghetto Smasher
" @-ana-  Claro. Latinos Unidos."
-snip-
Google translate from Spanish to English
"@-ana- Sure. Latinos United"

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67. The Medjay
" @-ana-  los Mayas no son latinos, no tienen nada que ver, además no solo representan a México, también a Guatemala y Belice."
-snip-
Google translate  from Spanish to English
'
@-ana- the Mayas are not Latinos, they have nothing to do with it, and they not only represent Mexico, but also Guatemala and Belize."

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68. -ana-
"@The Medjay  los mayas son una civilización mesoamericana milenaria (osea una cultura q tiene miles de años); estaban acentuados en lo q hoy es Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras y otros países (México incluido); y han vivido allí desde entonces, tienes razón no son latinos porq no hablan español pero básicamente son una de las culturas nativas de hispanoamerica por lo cual hacen parte de nosotros, nos representan en cierta forma."
-snip-
Google translate  from Spanish to English
@The Medjay the Mayans are an ancient Mesoamerican civilization (that is, a culture that is thousands of years old); they were accentuated in what is now Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras and other countries (Mexico included); and they've lived there ever since, you're right they're not Latinos because they don't speak Spanish but basically they are one of the native cultures of Hispanic America, which is why they are part of us, they represent us in a certain way.

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69. Gordo Travels
"Thank you to the black community for giving indigenous Mexican culture some lime light on a world scale. Before this movie nobody knew about our culture and after this movie a lot of people will want to explore our culture. As a fellow Mexican American from the Bay Area, I’m hella proud of Ryan Coogler being the one to initiate this historic moment. Solidarity between two of the most powerful people Black and Brown!!"

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70. anomaly
"Sorry but the black community didnt do anything smh…thank disney  and the creator of this comic character wich both have nothing to do with the community and im pretty sure this is maya culture and design wich has nothing to do with to days mexicen culture.."

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71. Jay Guero
"@anomaly  Before Mexico, there were Mayans. Then came the Spaniards and it became the Mexico we know today. A significant number of present day Mexicans (mostly tan colored peoples) can trace their blood to the Mayans. In Mexico, they’re referred to as “color nativos” which is Spanish for “native colored”.

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72. sarai
"I agree!!! A few years back I traced back my ancestry and I found out that my family were Mayan!!!!  I went into this movie knowing NOTHING about the villain and then I saw his headdress and I was SCREAMING on the inside."

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73. Yolee B
"I am so happy for you!  Its great to get representation.  As a Black woman that loves the MCU I felt that way when I saw the original Black Panther movie."

****
DISCUSSION THREAD #2

from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA7PrA-CyMU "Why Namor is WAY More Powerful Than You Realize - Wakanda Forever", published by The Marvelous Wave, Oct. 3, 2022 

All of these comments are from October 2022 and November 2022. Numbers are added for referencing purposes only.
 
These comments are given in relative chronological order with the oldest published comments given first except for replies.

This post doesn't include any explanations about the characters in or plots of  Black Panther or Black Panther:Wakanda Forever or any other movie that is mentioned. 

1. Jeffery Steen
"Brilliant!I've been waiting a long time to see Namor hit the big screen!He's always been my favorite marvel character!"

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2. Rodney Marsden
"Sorry to disappoint but you will not be seeing Namor the Submariner. They have highjacked the name and given it to another character."

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3. Jeffery Steen
"@Rodney Marsden  well I don't expect him to be exactly like the comic book but he's got those wings on this ankles and breathes underwater..sounds like Prince Namor to me!"

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4. Rodney Marsden
"@Jeffery Steen  Not to me. They have put a bone through his nose and they say he is an Aztec whatever the hell that means. Namor was created in 1939 by Bill Everett and he was a prince of Atlantis. We don't want an Aztec or Myan origin for Namor. That goes against Bill Everett's original vision for the character. It also goes against Jack Kirby and Stan Lee's vision and understanding for the character."

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5. Eric Colquitt
"Namor the Sub-mariner is one of my favorite characters in Marvel.I would love to hear Namor yell "IMPERIUS REX" in Black Panther 2 that would be great .😁"

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6. 
 Luc Germain
"It's a Latin term, I doubt he will use it as his background in the movie is aztec"

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7. Rodney Marsden
"@Luc Germain  So sad they have kept the name and threw away  decades of continuity."

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8. Luc Germain
"@Rodney Marsden  true but at this point I've kinda gotten used to the fact that they made him Aztec, I dig the design choices (Not his stache or nose piercing lol) but I'm trying to be as open-minded as possible. I really hope he will at least ACT like Namor and the second trailer gives me hope. But considering how much they butchered T'Challa in the MCU, that's probably not saying much haha. Still looking forward to finally seeing Namor on the big screen. Looooong overdue"

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9. J C
"Name of the city will be 'Tlalocan' based from the Aztec god of the water, rain, and storm 'Tlaloc'.  the mayans having a similar pantheon to the aztecs (same as between Greeks and Romans), had a different name for the same god which ito my liking sounds much cooler and powerful; 'Hurakan' where the word hurricane comes from...

The pre-european cultures of our continent have pretty cool and amazing stories to match the stories form the gods of the Olimpus, Asgard, Ming dinasty, etc.

I'm glad to see that the MCU is starting to develop and explore the idea of those myths of the original people and cultures of our Continent"

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10. Superbikeman
"I think its stupid to change an OG character like Namor. They are just checking of a box on their race list. What they should do is create an original Hispanic character. But we all know they don't have the guts to do that. Just race swap originals. LAME"

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11.Jonathan Magallon
"I loved namor before but with the change!!! WE FINALLY HAVE MAJOR LATIN REPRESENTATION!!! It’s everything I could have asked for the inspiration they took for talocan"

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12. Ogc Constrictors
"Mesoamerican culture"

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13. Superbikeman
"Dude you should not have to steal characters for checking off agenda boxes. They need to create a Latino character from scratch. Sloppy seconds = cant create our own characters.  Stop following and begging and start creating."

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14. Jay Son
"@Superbikeman  No stealing, It’s a Marvel character and they decided to rewrite a character that belongs to them without asking anybody’s permission.  They can do that with a fictional character that doesn’t really exist, fr."

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15. Sebastian Hellawell
"As someone who is half Mexican and growing up all around Mexican culture seeing a Latino take a big role in the MCU like that and bringing in some lineage with it is powerful to me and see some representation finally."

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16. Quincy White
"And I agree it is great to see the culture represented but why did they choose to change Namor's culture from Atlantean Greek to Aztec when they could just have taken a few Mexican superheroes that have already been established in the comic universe and make a movie about them the same way they did Shang Shi"

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17. Enrique G
"No doubt bro, im also proud. I was stunned when i 1st learned of it but i think it works really good they also couldve went the Polynesian route and it also wouldve stuck great BUT i suppose Aquaman already took that. I just hope he doesnt come off as weak or ends up loosing 1 on 1 vs a chic. No offense"

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18. boricua príncipe 🇵🇷
"
bro you seriously need to watch more MCU and even DC read the comic's and mangas as s well I can name latina and Latino superheros"

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19. boricua príncipe 🇵🇷
"
America Chavez: Miss. America

 Angel Salvadore: Tempest. in New X-Men (2001)

 Angela del Toro: White Tiger. in White Tiger (2006)

 Anya Corazon: Araña. in Amazing Fantasy (2004) #1. ...

 Ava Ayala: White Tiger. in Avengers Academy (2010)

 Dante Pertuz: Inferno

 Fabio Medina: Goldballs

 Xolo Maridueña: blue beetle"

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20. Judge Cohen
"Roberto DaCosta: Sunspot (a bunch of X teams)."

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21. Hugo Stiglitz
"@boricua príncipe 🇵🇷  there should be more IMO tho. I hate race swapping of characters but it is weird that there's so many black and white characters but so few Asian and Latino characters in the MCU. It's just not accurate at all to the racial makeup of our country"

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22. BusinessOfFear
"Also as someone who is half Mexican and grew up relating to Latino characters in films, I personally don't like that they changed an established character the way they did.

They could have created a new character for the movie, then put him the comics. This is NOT Namor, and it sucks that fans of him don't have their guy in this universe."

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23. Santy Valens
"@BusinessOfFear  speak for yourself bro, I've been a fan of Namor for years and i think this change is a very refreshing one. So many of his iconic comicbook moments are still possible too"

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24. BusinessOfFear
"@Santy Valens  You're speaking for yourself obviously, but I've seen fans upset with the change, and I would be too if it was a character I was invested with. In fact I have been upset with how Hulk has been handled.

This Namor is as much like his comic book counterpart as Godzilla (1998) is to the original.

Again, I am personally not a fan of stuff like that, especially if the reason was because "Aquaman already has Atlantis in the DCEU"."

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25. Rich Alvarez
"
In the new Dr Strange movie there is that actress Ixchel. Shes mexican american. Oscar Isaac is from Guatemala and he is the moon guy for Marvel. It's not progressive but choosing dope actors. This Kukulkan dude is a good little addition."

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26. Steve Fox
"@BusinessOfFear  what is the race of namor in the fictional marvel comics to be exact? Was he supposed to be Greek? If so, I would love to hear their perspective. As far as I know, I don't hear them whining about it"

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27. BusinessOfFear
"@Steve Fox  I honestly don't care about how anyone who is Greek feels. As I stated, I'm not a fan of when studios do something like this.

It's different when a supporting character like Gordon has been in so many movies that the change doesn't really effect him like when his race was changed in The Batman.

But this was Namor's big debut on the big screen, they made him so different. I'm not super invested in the character, but if I was, I'd be beyond annoyed. And AGAIN if the reason for the change was because Atlantis was used in the DCEU first, them that's just stupid."

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28. Steve Fox
"@BusinessOfFear  may I remind you that namor was a mutant who was born in a atlantean civilization, it was never specificied what race continent he was born into , lol. In terms of marvel comics , the world that he lived in was an Arctic region. Guess where that is ? Argentina,Chile Russia Iceland , canada and others"

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29. Kevin LeMelle
"I'm very glad the MCU  is showing diversity in the movie. There's more to come. By faith,  the Sea Mariner will have movies or a cameo appearance."

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30. kevin Jonhason
"they had to change the character as to not copy jason momoas atlantis based film, and they went ahead and made an amazing connection with mexican cultures that are really old, its amazing cause most people dont really know that us native americans and incans and mayans and aztecs are all related, they are one big nation actually genetically, i hope they adreess this in the upcoming namor movie. its awesome."
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The Jason Momoas film that is referenced in this comment was the 2018 movie Aquaman.

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31. SSPACEGHOST HUITZLAMPA
"This is confusing how they’re combining namor and the legends of Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan as the feathered serpent was the lord of the western sky, bringer of Maiz, he had almost nothing to do with the ocean, that would be Tlaloc. I understand it’s a movie but it would be cool for Hollywood to get our cultura right for once"

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32. Osiris
"Dude, you're talking about Hollywood here. Have they ever got anything right? Especially on an already established story or character? The only way that would happen is either the author or writer of the original work is given creative freedoms by the studio, or the studio buys the original work with certain conditions to meet the expectations of the original creator. Its practically a money grab at this point with them taking creative liberties in changing Namor's origins to fit the current political climate. But in all honesty, I would love to see a fictional depiction of the Aztec Gods on film like they do with Greek and Roman Gods; I think that would be pretty cool, because that would be an original work with great source material straight out of Mayan culture."

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33. SSPACEGHOST HUITZLAMPA
"@Osiris  yeah I get that Hollywood don’t care, a dope movie would be based off the book AZTEC it’s a story of a old man named Mixtli who tells his life story from a boy who’s from a modest family to where he becomes a eagle warrior and pochtecatl for the tlatoani ahuizotl it’s a great book sad but great that would easily be a three part movie trilogy"

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