Edited by Azizi Powell
This pancocojams post showcases selected comments from a 2012 online discussion thread entitled "Why Do Young White Londoners Talk Black Style?".
The content of this post is presented for folkloric, linguistics, and socio-cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are participated in this discussion and all those who are quoted in this post. YouTube.
-snip-
This is part of an ongoing pancocojams series on "African American Vernacular English", "code switching" and other related linguistics customs.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2017/07/selected-youtube-discussion-thread.html for a closely related pancocojams post entitled "Selected YouTube Discussion Sub-Thread About Whether Black People From Britain "Talk White".
Also, click the tags below to find other posts in this series.
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DISCUSSION EXCERPT
Pancocojams Editor's Note:
The full discussion is seven pages (169 comments).
I recognize that other people compiling excerpts of these comments might choose to highlight some other comments than the ones that I chose.
https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1667825/why-do-young-white-londoners-talk-black-style
radyag
28/05/12 #1
"I've noticed in recent years that the classic cockney accent has now gone. Young people now speak in what I call black style, or gangsta. I can only assume this is the effect of mass immigration in London."
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ladymoanalot
28/05/12 11:45
#2
"When I was in London working I hardly heard anyone talk like that. Well apart from a gang of rough looking ones, in their early teens.."
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flagpole
28/05/12 11:51
#6
radyag wrote:
I've noticed in recent years that the classic cockney accent has now gone. Young people now speak in what I call black style, or gangsta. I can only assume this is the effect of mass immigration in London.
"if you stop calling it black style and refer to it as something like urban youth culture then the question of why the urban youth do it becomes more apparent."
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Talullahmay
28/05/12 11:52
#8
radyag wrote:
I've noticed in recent years that the classic cockney accent has now gone. Young people now speak in what I call black style, or gangsta. I can only assume this is the effect of mass immigration in London.
"I don't think it's just london though tbh, I live in manchester & it's the same with some white guys & girls here!"
**
alisonrose3764
28/05/12 12:15
#20
"Cos they think its SO cool - shame they don't know they look totally stupid!
Its the jeans halfway down their bum that makes me laugh - what a pathetic look!
I'm so glad I am a grown-up!"
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stoatie
28/05/12 12:25
#25
"I think I must have missed the meeting where all the rules changed and adults were supposed to be able to understand why teenagers do stuff."
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https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1667825/why-do-young-white-londoners-talk-black-style/p2
skp20040
28/05/12 13:08
#31
"Its a faux Jamaican patois, and it sounds ridiculous in white people ( I actually have a white Jamaican friend and it still sounds odd ) , especially young ladies ( and I use the word ladies in the loosest possible of terms ) .
But we can all speak in a Jamaican accent if we want, try saying Beer Can and you will find it sounds like Bacon in a Jamaican accent."
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor: The bold font was included in this comment
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pickwick
28/05/12 13:10
#32
flagpole wrote:
if you stop calling it black style and refer to it as something like urban youth culture then the question of why the urban youth do it becomes more apparent.
Heh, yes, this :D
"Anyone who actually thinks accent is tied to race is hilariously ignorant about language. (Not that being ignorant is hilarious in itself, just when they're trying to look down on other people from their lofty perches of ignorance.)"
**
whydoiwatch
28/05/12 13:10
#33
stoatie wrote:
I think I must have missed the meeting where all the rules changed and adults were supposed to be able to understand why teenagers do stuff.
"Same here. You think I would've been issued a manual since I have kids. I guess I'm still waiting on "The Black Person's Guide to Being Black: How You Are All The Same Regardless of Ethnicity, Nationality, Class, Culture or Religion." I've been doing this black thing for almost 35 years but according to DS,I'm doing it wrong."
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Ber
28/05/12 13:27
#38
"All the white kids round here sound just like they were born and raised in Lagos :rolleyes:
(Saying that, I do love the Nigerian / Ghanaian accent)"
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Bex7t6
28/05/12 13:32
#41
"I heard this accent being discussed on the radio recently. Seems more of an influence of environment rather than white kids trying to talk 'black', whatever the f**k that is. I know a fair few black people who don't talk in the way being descibed.
From Wikepedia- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English
Although the street name, "Jafaican", implies that it is "fake" Jamaican, researchers indicate that it is not the language of white kids trying to "play cool" but rather that "[it is] more likely that young people have been growing up in London exposed to a mixture of second-language English and local London English and that this new variety has emerged from that mix"."
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor: That word was written with asterisks in that discussion thread.
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lala
28/05/12 13:53
#49
radyag wrote:
I've noticed in recent years that the classic cockney accent has now gone. Young people now speak in what I call black style, or gangsta. I can only assume this is the effect of mass immigration in London.
" "black style"? Surely you mean AMERICAN street talk?
But hey, let's not blame the other cultures in the west for this now. :rolleyes:"
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https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1667825/why-do-young-white-londoners-talk-black-style/p3
**
skp20040
28/05/12 14:00
#53
pickwick wrote
Yeah, but you only "know" (or assume) that London kids' Jamaican-style accent is put on because of their race, I guess is what I mean, really. I know quite a few people who have "put on" a false accent, but because it was broad Glaswegians or Cornish people "putting on" an Estuary or Standard English accent, nobody thinks it sounds stupid or they're weird fakers. Largely because they're going from low-status accent to higher-status accent, I think. And conversely that's why people think the Jafaikan sounds "wrong" and "stupid" and "unnatural" - because people are choosing to use a lower status accent, and that's just weird ;)
"It's not that the white kids are choosing to use a Jamaican accent though anyone choosing to use an accent other than their own I find a bit sad , no accent to my mind is low-status , an accent is an accent , but its that they are specifically choosing a gangsta aspect of that which is made up and they do it to come across as hard ."
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Ber
28/05/12 14:13
#55
"Thing is, I know quite a few jamaican people and their accents don't sound anything like "street slang" - so I'm not sure why its called "Jafaican" (unless its just because you can insert the word fake into it)"
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SillyBoyBlue
28/05/12 15:34
#70
"It's funny that black kids aren't accused of 'talking white' when their accent is as far removed from their grandparents' native Jamaican accent as white kids' are from theirs.
"Innit" is a "white" cockney word. Both black and white kids have grown up in a multi-cultural environment where the various accents have blended. I agree though that certain words ("Feds" for example) have been picked up from exposure to American rap culture, but this 'Jafaican' thing was obviously invented by someone whose never heard an authentic Jamaican patois."
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https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1667825/why-do-young-white-londoners-talk-black-style/p4
kimotag
28/05/12 16:46
#79
"I think a lot of 'urban' accents have simply evolved out of the 'melting pot' culture that young people in some areas grow up in. Therefore they aren't 'fake' at all for those people. What I do find fake though is the way a lot of young men add extra bass to their voice in order to appear more masculine.
As someone else said, some people do moderate their accents when talking to different people. A guy in my gym speaks to me in standard estuary English, but can switch to Jamaican patois in an instant if a friend of his. who shares this ancestry comes along.
Having been born in Hampshire, but moving to London 30 years ago, my accent has slowly changed to Estuary English, but still with an element of Hampshire in it. I will speak posher (Received Pronunciation) in interview situations, or when giving a presentation, and less-posh when I am talking to people who speak urban English."
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GreenJellyJam
28/05/12 17:12
#81
"How can you talk 'Black'? Skin colour has nothing to do with how you speak.
Language and accents change over time and of course immigration has something to do with it otherwise we would not be speaking this language we are using now, it has nothing to do with the colour of someones skin it's do with kids from different cultures, backgrounds, countries intergrating with each other so the way they speak they develop their own accents and slang. Sure some put it on but most develop naturally, so let's not mock."
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yvier
28/05/12 19:47
#88
:Not sure whether this really is 'black style' way of talking. I was born and raised in London in the Notting Hill area during the 60s and 70s. I went to school and had many friends who were from a West Indian background and was always amazed that when they were all together they spoke with a West Indian accent but when they were with their white friends they spoke a typical London 'cockney' type accent. What I hear now is not a West Indian accent nor an old fashioned 'London' accent but something quite different. I can't really understand a lot of what kids say now but I suppose that's probably how it should be! Even so, I do find it very unattractive to listen to and I'm sure it isn't doing them any favours if they want to get a job. Guess it will change and evolve into something else one day."
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Lain Andrews
28/05/12 20:14
#90
radyag wrote:
I've noticed in recent years that the classic cockney accent has now gone. Young people now speak in what I call black style, or gangsta. I can only assume this is the effect of mass immigration in London.
"I have been in a class when a white teacher asked me,"why are you talking black?; Why don't you just be yourself." Should he be fired?
I grew up with black people and I've always like the way they dress,food culture, it's kool. :)
It is called ebonics and it is a recognized linguistic language, such as asian pronunication (hard time with th "r" sound) or spanish pronunciation (ee comes off as i)."
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John Carter
29/05/12 07:56
#99
....”I don't think this is about just an "accent" , for some people it's a way of identifying, for others it may be a way of being "cool". For some it isn't anything conscious it's just the way they and their friends talk. For some teenagers its a way of differentiating themselves in groups and from adults which is nothing new
The majority of teenagers who talk like this will probably talk differently to their parents, and switch their language to match the setting.
The ones who can't switch can go into youth work or TV or radio presenting;)
I also don't think it is ebonics, Lain.
But to go back to the original post it's not "black" style it's a mix found in urban areas and many urban areas will have their version ( as other posters have said)"
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor: This is a portion of a longer comment.
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https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1667825/why-do-young-white-londoners-talk-black-style/p5
It'saLondonthin
29/05/12 16:15
#107
"Being from London, and being young I can go on record saying that not everyone under the age of 30 speaks black style.
What is black style? Is the the colloquialisms or the way in which these words are pronounced. ANyways this is a joke thread right??"
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Mr.Humphries
29/05/12 17:35
#109
"Most African people in London don't talk with a 'black style'. Most speak with impeccable accents and the rest with their own background patois mixed with a high grasp of English. Education is very important to Africans."
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https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1667825/why-do-young-white-londoners-talk-black-style/p6
AssistedAction
#138
flagpole wrote:
if you stop calling it black style and refer to it as something like urban youth culture then the question of why the urban youth do it becomes more apparent.
It's not urban youth culture. Youths have always lived in urban areas but they haven't spoken in anything other than their regional accents or regionally indistinct accents, not something that owes its pronunciation, inflexions and even some of its vocabulary to West Indian patois. Therefore, though "black style" may not be the best choice of words as it suggests that all black people everywhere speak this way, it isn't in any way an inaccurate description of the way many young people speak these days.
It sounds ridiculous on any young person, whatever their colour, brought up in this country and the saddest thing is that it's costing young people job opportunities. Particularly if they are applying for a role where they will be speaking to the public."
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skipjack79
31/05/12 10:24
#145
"It's funny that these London kids use phrases like "keep it real", or "I'm keeping it real", while talking in a hilarious fake accent using fake mannerisms and pretending they're gangsters, but I'm guessing the irony is lost on them. :D"
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ChristmasCake
31/05/12 11:19
#147
"As someone of Jamaican origin, I can say that this way of talking is as far away from Patois as you can get."
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https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1667825/why-do-young-white-londoners-talk-black-style/p7
Throgmorton1
31/05/12 17:17
#152
"Every generation desperately tries to define itself by developing (or stealing) a new vocabulary and vocal rhythm.
Depending on your age - you all have some individual language that you embraced as both setting you apart from the older generation and allowing you to identify with your own peer group.
Mine was the hippy vocabulary - no more - nor less cringe-worthy than anything used today - and certainly nothing to be proud of. Surely one of the joys of getting older is the ability to laugh at yourself at exactly the point you took yourself the most seriously."
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Youtoo?
31/05/12 17:36
#154
"Where I live we have Asian kids, white kids and black kids all talking in "urban black" accent (no offense, I can't think of a better phrase) with a Yorkshire twang on top. It's very amusing. :D"
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Imperfect Angel
01/06/12 00:15
#160
"What exactly is a black style? so much ignorance in this thread :sleep:"
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor: My guess is that in this comment "sleep" means that the commenter believes that people who use the term “black style” to refer to ways that people talk aren’t socially conscious (i.e. They aren't "woke" (in the contemporary African American originated meaning of that word).
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Prince Monalulu
01/06/12 01:30
#163
ChristmasCake wrote:
As someone of Jamaican origin, I can say that this way of talking is as far away from Patois as you can get.
"You're wasting your time.
Everytime this comes up various FM's point out it's not a (working class) Jamaican patois, nor an attempt to copy it.
If they were attempting to copy it, they'd get closer to it.
They'll just keep banging on about Jafakan (sp)."
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Prince Monalulu
01/06/12 02:41
#166
Mr.Humphries wrote:
I would love to hear standard English come back into vogue. It would be nice to understand what people are saying. It is a pity that no one in power is prepared to do something about the sorry situation that we find ourselves in today. Illiteracy is ruining this country.
"Good luck removing all slang and accents.
What's standard english?
What are 'those in power' supposed to do about it?
Might be my ignorance here, but I thought literacy related to the written word."
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Mr.Humphries
01/06/12 13:39
#168
Prince Monalulu wrote:
Love to know where you've met all these Africans with impeccable accents.
Do you mean impeccable english accents?
What countries do you mean, Africa's a big place.
"I meant most Africans from most of the nations that make up the continent. They make an effort to speak standard English and it is most pleasing to hear it rather than provincial garble. It would be nice if the natives could do the same too."
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pugamo
01/06/12 13:47
#169
"Because they are young and young people are silly. They'll soon drop the pretend accents when they have to do grown up things like go for an interview with the bank manager to arrange a mortgage."
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Thursday, July 27, 2017
Wednesday, July 26, 2017
Selected YouTube Discussion Sub-Thread About Whether Black People From Britain "Talk White"
Edited by Azizi Powell
This pancocojams post showcases selected comments from a YouTube video's discussion thread. Those selected comments are part of a sub-thread in which people discuss whether Black people from Britain speak the same as White people from that country. That topic grew out of larger discussion prompted by the theme of the spoke word composition which addressed the idea of Black people "talking like they are White".
The African American spoken word video that led to this discussion is also featured in this post.
The Addendum to this post quotes two comments from a hyperlinked article entitled "In the U.K., do black people have a distinct dialect in the same way that there is a black dialect in the U.S.?"
The content of this post is presented for folkloric, linguistics, and socio-cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to Ernestine Johnson for her spoken word composition and thanks to Arsenio Hall for featuring that spoken word performance on his television show. Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post and thanks to the publisher of this video on YouTube.
-snip-
This is part of an ongoing pancocojams series on "African American Vernacular English", "code switching" and other related linguistics customs.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2017/07/selected-comments-from-2012-online.html for a closely related pancocojams post entitled "Selected Comments From A 2012 Online Discussion About Young White Londoners "Talking Black" "
Also, click the tags below to find other posts in this series.
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SHOWCASE VIDEO: Ernestine Johnson Performs 'The Average Black Girl' on Arsenio Hall Show
Ernestine Johnson, Published on Apr 14, 2014
Ernestine Johnson kicks off the show with an amazing and moving performance of "The Average Black Girl." You will get chills from this performance.
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PANCOCOJAMS EDITOR'S COMMENT ABOUT THE TERM "EBONICS"
The term "Ebonics" is frequently used in these featured comments to basically mean the same thing as "African American Vernacular English". However, the term "Ebonics" has its own history in the United States and isn't formally used by American linguists and/or American professionals. Furthermore, few African Americans formally or informally use the term "Ebonics" to refer to the ways that individual Black Americans speak or write some of the time or all of the time.
Click http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/AAVE/ebonics/ for information about "Ebonics".
****
SELECTED COMMENTS
These comments are part of the sub-thread that is described above. Comments that were posted to date (July 26, 2017 5:54 PM) that aren't quoted in this post were either entirely made up of profanity abbreviations or were exchanges about religion that have nothing to do with this specific topic.
Numbers are assigned to these comments for referencing purposes only.
1. Qopel, 2015
"How come in England, the blacks talk just the same as the whites? No Ebonics, no accent. I couldn't tell a white from a black British person over the phone. Go figure."
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Reply
2.Thabiso Mhlaba, 2015
"Most British people have much crazier accents than most American ones as far as deciphering the meaning of a sentence."
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Reply
3. tatyee, 2015
"they actually do. You don't live in Britain so i'm not surprised you can't tell the difference. I have black british friends that make fun of black britains that "talk white." britain has plenty different accents. it's just racial divide isn't as severe or outright in britain. less morons there"
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Reply
4. ellensarah, 2015
"I'm from England and I was kind of wondering if the accents differ as much in the UK as they apparently do in the US. I actually grew up around a lot of black people because my school was international but they mostly had Nigerian accents (with some English mixed in depending on how long they'd been at the school). Now I'm in university all the black friends I have seem to speak with the same accent I do, and in the case of the one northern girl she sounds the same as the other white northern girls. We definitely discriminate based on accents but I think it's usually based on a colourless class discrimination, rather than race."
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Reply
5. Javan uHnah, 2015
"Black londoners have created their own ebonics actually. Ignorant."
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Reply
6. Qopel, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
..and they sound American when they sing."
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Reply
7. tatyee, 2015
"+Qopel I've noticed that too. that could be for commercial appeal though. like Iggy Azalea tryna sound like she's from the South when she raps."
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Reply
8. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+Qopel Who are you referring to?...."
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Reply
9. Qopel, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and all other British bands"
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Reply
10. Javan uHnah, 2015
"The beatles and rolling stones do not have american accents (when they sing) liar."
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Reply
11. Qopel, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
Oh, right...they have Chinese accents...my bad."
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Reply
12. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+Qopel The beatles are all Liverpudlian. And yes, although that may have similarities to an American accent. It's still a british accent. The Rolling Stones did sing in american accents quite a lot tho. Thats true. Apologies.
However what does this have to do with black londoners? Who yes, have their own unique idiolect separate from of british people? Just like African Americans have ebonics."
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Reply
13. ellensarah, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
I have plenty of black friends who are from london and they all sound indistinguishable from white londeners."
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Reply
14. pikanoob, 2015
"because its entirely cultural"
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Reply
15. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+ellensarah Listen to grime artist and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Are watch kidulthood. That type of idiolect was pioneered by black brits. Only in recent years, more white londoners have started to speak this way, because just like in America everyone wants to black nowadays."
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Reply
16. ellensarah, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
I listened to some now but it all just kind of sounded like a typical working-class London accent to me, did you have a particular artist in mind?
In fact one video was a list of the best grime artists which included a white artist and a black artist and they both sounded like normal working-class Londoners."
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Reply
17. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+ellensarah There is a difference between cockney and the idiolect used by grime artists. I suppose it might seem similar to an outsider, but the vocabulary gives it away. For example, black people have come up with this phrase "mans just in ends", meaning "I'm at home".
In black londoner idiolect, people refer themselves in the 3rd person time, "mans", which means "I". That's something you wouldn't hear in a cockney accent.
Makes me wonder tho, why they haven't given this language an official name yet."
**
Reply
18. GuYAh Berry, 2015
"+Javan uHnah You can identify me as a black Londoner but I don't speak like the Grime artists. I understand the point you are trying to make that but you are stereotypying in a way that Ernestine Johnson touches on. I think it would be better if you say most black Londoners speak like the Grime artists. However, maybe you haven't met many who don't :-)"
Also, in most Northern England dialects, they refer to themselves in 3rd person too, "Give us that " would be give me that", and they use the phrase "Me mam said you can take us there" meaning "My mum said you can take me there" So not just a black Londoner thing but actually it's colour and geographically-independent.
If you listen to the white Londoners, in East London or South, North or West they all have different accents- especially East London. This has nothing to do with Grime and has been like so for many decades.
"mans just in ends" actually means "I'm in my neighbourhood", "mans at yard" would be "I'm at home"
This just slang picked up over the years by people and it is definitely not limited to black people and I doubt it was solely created by them. Language changes very much over the years and it had done when black people did not live in the UK.
I don't mean any offense but your comments make it sound like you are a Londoner and every black person there speaks in the manner you describe: It is not specific to black people nor is it all black people XD.
Sorry for the long text Javan"
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Reply
19. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+Geraldine Abbey I'm a black londoner too, I don't speak like a grime artist either. This is getting tiresome
Do you know what a "road man" is? That's literally the kind of idiolect I'm talking about.
No any of that "me mam" liverpoolian stuff."
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Reply
20. ellensarah, 2015
"+Steven JG
Britain isn't big enough for different accents??"
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Reply
21. Chloe Calvin, 2015
"+Steven JG Yes they do, funny enough you brought up Jamaica because my parents are from there and Jamaica is Out of Many One People with different backgrounds and have different accents (thanks to SLAVERY). It is hard enough when the mainstream Kingston (the capital of Jamaica) street ghetto slang takes over the country's patios as the "national" language and Jamaica is only recognised for this dialect when the majority of the country speaks plain simple English.
I don't know why I bothered to answer your rhetorical question when clearly the answer is yes the "other small islands" you mean the rest of the WEST INDIES, YES they do have they're own accents as the British, French and the Spanish sold and trade slaves throughout Caribbean, so to answer your question the whole of the Caribbean has many different accents, some may sound the same but they're all different. I can tell difference with a person who speaks in Bajan Creole from a person from Trinidad right back down to Grenada to St Kitts.
Answering your previous comment Steven "Britain isn't large enough for people to for different accents" this statement makes you sound very stupid as Britain has the largest multicultural society in the world here in London where I live. The whole of the UK and Ireland have many different accents nationally and regionally. For an island the UK is a small world.
Ain't America unpopulated for it's size?
I had to educate your small mind and please enlighten me with your next reply I'll be looking forward to reading."
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor: Apparently, a question had been posted in this sub-thread about whether everyone in the West Indies has the same accent. It's likely that that comment was voted down and therefore is no longer part of that sub-thread.
**
Reply
22. tatyee, 20155
"It's like me saying there is no difference between the Canadian and American accent, which I'm sure there is but I just don't hear it because I'm not from America. Or saying someone from Boston sounds like someone from New York or New Orleans or Miami. same way there are differences in the accents in America there are differences in the accents in the UK(Yes, even among the whites there)"
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Reply
23. ellensarah, 2015
"+tatyee
&, in my opinion, in most cities, there really isn't that much of a difference between black & white accents, a girl from liverpool tends to have the same accent, black or white. It's social class that tends to affect accents within the same city or town.
I know you have a different opinion, it's just my experience of all the black people I've met at Uni from different parts of the country, I don't hear a difference."
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Reply
24. Banshee Eighty, 2015
"In America, a certain idea of blacks was pushed. You either embraced this fractured culture or you attempted to assimilate. I don't think in England they had an all out campaign to segregate blacks and whites, but I could be wrong."
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Reply
25. I love nature, 2015
"England have several accents..not everyone speak "posh"."
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Reply
26. Marcus Thompson, 2016
"+Beleza Africana 😍😙 a lot more than several....."
-snip-
This is the end of this discussion sub-thread as of July 26, 2017.
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ADDENDUM
From https://www.quora.com/In-the-U-K-do-black-people-have-a-distinct-dialect-in-the-same-way-that-there-is-a-black-dialect-in-the-U-S
"In the U.K., do black people have a distinct dialect in the same way that there is a black dialect in the U.S.?
Even though there are different regional accents, is there a distinct dialect that is common among black people regardless of region (such as how black people in the south US have a different accent than in California but share a common dialect regardless of region)?"
5 Answers
Ernest W. Adams, lives in The United Kingdom
Answered May 30, 2015
"I would be careful about generalizing about a common black dialect in the United States; there are many black people in the US whose speech is indistinguishable from that of their white neighbors.
That said, the answer is no, and the reason is that black people in Britain are much more ethnically diverse. Some are recent immigrants from Africa, particularly West African nations like Nigeria and Ghana, while others are Afro-Caribbean descendants of people who came to the UK a long time ago and they sound exactly like the white people among whom they live. There was also a big influx of West Indians in the years immediately after the Second World War. The West Indian population has a dialect and an accent, but it's not shared at all with the African immigrants or with the native black British people."
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Angela Mackie-Rutledge, Black British & American expatriot
Answered Jun 2, 2015
"When speaking to people on the phone here in the UK, I cannot discern their race, but I can more easily tell their class.
I talk to a lot of black people both here and in the USA. The only thing with some commonality is a young (under 25), urban, London accent - but I've heard Asians, whites and blacks speak this way, so it's not distinctly black.
The answer provided by Ernest W. Adams seems to be pretty right on."
****
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
This pancocojams post showcases selected comments from a YouTube video's discussion thread. Those selected comments are part of a sub-thread in which people discuss whether Black people from Britain speak the same as White people from that country. That topic grew out of larger discussion prompted by the theme of the spoke word composition which addressed the idea of Black people "talking like they are White".
The African American spoken word video that led to this discussion is also featured in this post.
The Addendum to this post quotes two comments from a hyperlinked article entitled "In the U.K., do black people have a distinct dialect in the same way that there is a black dialect in the U.S.?"
The content of this post is presented for folkloric, linguistics, and socio-cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to Ernestine Johnson for her spoken word composition and thanks to Arsenio Hall for featuring that spoken word performance on his television show. Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post and thanks to the publisher of this video on YouTube.
-snip-
This is part of an ongoing pancocojams series on "African American Vernacular English", "code switching" and other related linguistics customs.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2017/07/selected-comments-from-2012-online.html for a closely related pancocojams post entitled "Selected Comments From A 2012 Online Discussion About Young White Londoners "Talking Black" "
Also, click the tags below to find other posts in this series.
****
SHOWCASE VIDEO: Ernestine Johnson Performs 'The Average Black Girl' on Arsenio Hall Show
Ernestine Johnson, Published on Apr 14, 2014
Ernestine Johnson kicks off the show with an amazing and moving performance of "The Average Black Girl." You will get chills from this performance.
****
PANCOCOJAMS EDITOR'S COMMENT ABOUT THE TERM "EBONICS"
The term "Ebonics" is frequently used in these featured comments to basically mean the same thing as "African American Vernacular English". However, the term "Ebonics" has its own history in the United States and isn't formally used by American linguists and/or American professionals. Furthermore, few African Americans formally or informally use the term "Ebonics" to refer to the ways that individual Black Americans speak or write some of the time or all of the time.
Click http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/AAVE/ebonics/ for information about "Ebonics".
****
SELECTED COMMENTS
These comments are part of the sub-thread that is described above. Comments that were posted to date (July 26, 2017 5:54 PM) that aren't quoted in this post were either entirely made up of profanity abbreviations or were exchanges about religion that have nothing to do with this specific topic.
Numbers are assigned to these comments for referencing purposes only.
1. Qopel, 2015
"How come in England, the blacks talk just the same as the whites? No Ebonics, no accent. I couldn't tell a white from a black British person over the phone. Go figure."
**
Reply
2.Thabiso Mhlaba, 2015
"Most British people have much crazier accents than most American ones as far as deciphering the meaning of a sentence."
**
Reply
3. tatyee, 2015
"they actually do. You don't live in Britain so i'm not surprised you can't tell the difference. I have black british friends that make fun of black britains that "talk white." britain has plenty different accents. it's just racial divide isn't as severe or outright in britain. less morons there"
**
Reply
4. ellensarah, 2015
"I'm from England and I was kind of wondering if the accents differ as much in the UK as they apparently do in the US. I actually grew up around a lot of black people because my school was international but they mostly had Nigerian accents (with some English mixed in depending on how long they'd been at the school). Now I'm in university all the black friends I have seem to speak with the same accent I do, and in the case of the one northern girl she sounds the same as the other white northern girls. We definitely discriminate based on accents but I think it's usually based on a colourless class discrimination, rather than race."
**
Reply
5. Javan uHnah, 2015
"Black londoners have created their own ebonics actually. Ignorant."
**
Reply
6. Qopel, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
..and they sound American when they sing."
**
Reply
7. tatyee, 2015
"+Qopel I've noticed that too. that could be for commercial appeal though. like Iggy Azalea tryna sound like she's from the South when she raps."
**
Reply
8. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+Qopel Who are you referring to?...."
**
Reply
9. Qopel, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and all other British bands"
**
Reply
10. Javan uHnah, 2015
"The beatles and rolling stones do not have american accents (when they sing) liar."
**
Reply
11. Qopel, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
Oh, right...they have Chinese accents...my bad."
**
Reply
12. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+Qopel The beatles are all Liverpudlian. And yes, although that may have similarities to an American accent. It's still a british accent. The Rolling Stones did sing in american accents quite a lot tho. Thats true. Apologies.
However what does this have to do with black londoners? Who yes, have their own unique idiolect separate from of british people? Just like African Americans have ebonics."
**
Reply
13. ellensarah, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
I have plenty of black friends who are from london and they all sound indistinguishable from white londeners."
**
Reply
14. pikanoob, 2015
"because its entirely cultural"
**
Reply
15. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+ellensarah Listen to grime artist and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Are watch kidulthood. That type of idiolect was pioneered by black brits. Only in recent years, more white londoners have started to speak this way, because just like in America everyone wants to black nowadays."
**
Reply
16. ellensarah, 2015
"+Javan uHnah
I listened to some now but it all just kind of sounded like a typical working-class London accent to me, did you have a particular artist in mind?
In fact one video was a list of the best grime artists which included a white artist and a black artist and they both sounded like normal working-class Londoners."
**
Reply
17. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+ellensarah There is a difference between cockney and the idiolect used by grime artists. I suppose it might seem similar to an outsider, but the vocabulary gives it away. For example, black people have come up with this phrase "mans just in ends", meaning "I'm at home".
In black londoner idiolect, people refer themselves in the 3rd person time, "mans", which means "I". That's something you wouldn't hear in a cockney accent.
Makes me wonder tho, why they haven't given this language an official name yet."
**
Reply
18. GuYAh Berry, 2015
"+Javan uHnah You can identify me as a black Londoner but I don't speak like the Grime artists. I understand the point you are trying to make that but you are stereotypying in a way that Ernestine Johnson touches on. I think it would be better if you say most black Londoners speak like the Grime artists. However, maybe you haven't met many who don't :-)"
Also, in most Northern England dialects, they refer to themselves in 3rd person too, "Give us that " would be give me that", and they use the phrase "Me mam said you can take us there" meaning "My mum said you can take me there" So not just a black Londoner thing but actually it's colour and geographically-independent.
If you listen to the white Londoners, in East London or South, North or West they all have different accents- especially East London. This has nothing to do with Grime and has been like so for many decades.
"mans just in ends" actually means "I'm in my neighbourhood", "mans at yard" would be "I'm at home"
This just slang picked up over the years by people and it is definitely not limited to black people and I doubt it was solely created by them. Language changes very much over the years and it had done when black people did not live in the UK.
I don't mean any offense but your comments make it sound like you are a Londoner and every black person there speaks in the manner you describe: It is not specific to black people nor is it all black people XD.
Sorry for the long text Javan"
**
Reply
19. Javan uHnah, 2015
"+Geraldine Abbey I'm a black londoner too, I don't speak like a grime artist either. This is getting tiresome
Do you know what a "road man" is? That's literally the kind of idiolect I'm talking about.
No any of that "me mam" liverpoolian stuff."
**
Reply
20. ellensarah, 2015
"+Steven JG
Britain isn't big enough for different accents??"
**
Reply
21. Chloe Calvin, 2015
"+Steven JG Yes they do, funny enough you brought up Jamaica because my parents are from there and Jamaica is Out of Many One People with different backgrounds and have different accents (thanks to SLAVERY). It is hard enough when the mainstream Kingston (the capital of Jamaica) street ghetto slang takes over the country's patios as the "national" language and Jamaica is only recognised for this dialect when the majority of the country speaks plain simple English.
I don't know why I bothered to answer your rhetorical question when clearly the answer is yes the "other small islands" you mean the rest of the WEST INDIES, YES they do have they're own accents as the British, French and the Spanish sold and trade slaves throughout Caribbean, so to answer your question the whole of the Caribbean has many different accents, some may sound the same but they're all different. I can tell difference with a person who speaks in Bajan Creole from a person from Trinidad right back down to Grenada to St Kitts.
Answering your previous comment Steven "Britain isn't large enough for people to for different accents" this statement makes you sound very stupid as Britain has the largest multicultural society in the world here in London where I live. The whole of the UK and Ireland have many different accents nationally and regionally. For an island the UK is a small world.
Ain't America unpopulated for it's size?
I had to educate your small mind and please enlighten me with your next reply I'll be looking forward to reading."
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor: Apparently, a question had been posted in this sub-thread about whether everyone in the West Indies has the same accent. It's likely that that comment was voted down and therefore is no longer part of that sub-thread.
**
Reply
22. tatyee, 20155
"It's like me saying there is no difference between the Canadian and American accent, which I'm sure there is but I just don't hear it because I'm not from America. Or saying someone from Boston sounds like someone from New York or New Orleans or Miami. same way there are differences in the accents in America there are differences in the accents in the UK(Yes, even among the whites there)"
**
Reply
23. ellensarah, 2015
"+tatyee
&, in my opinion, in most cities, there really isn't that much of a difference between black & white accents, a girl from liverpool tends to have the same accent, black or white. It's social class that tends to affect accents within the same city or town.
I know you have a different opinion, it's just my experience of all the black people I've met at Uni from different parts of the country, I don't hear a difference."
**
Reply
24. Banshee Eighty, 2015
"In America, a certain idea of blacks was pushed. You either embraced this fractured culture or you attempted to assimilate. I don't think in England they had an all out campaign to segregate blacks and whites, but I could be wrong."
**
Reply
25. I love nature, 2015
"England have several accents..not everyone speak "posh"."
**
Reply
26. Marcus Thompson, 2016
"+Beleza Africana 😍😙 a lot more than several....."
-snip-
This is the end of this discussion sub-thread as of July 26, 2017.
****
ADDENDUM
From https://www.quora.com/In-the-U-K-do-black-people-have-a-distinct-dialect-in-the-same-way-that-there-is-a-black-dialect-in-the-U-S
"In the U.K., do black people have a distinct dialect in the same way that there is a black dialect in the U.S.?
Even though there are different regional accents, is there a distinct dialect that is common among black people regardless of region (such as how black people in the south US have a different accent than in California but share a common dialect regardless of region)?"
5 Answers
Ernest W. Adams, lives in The United Kingdom
Answered May 30, 2015
"I would be careful about generalizing about a common black dialect in the United States; there are many black people in the US whose speech is indistinguishable from that of their white neighbors.
That said, the answer is no, and the reason is that black people in Britain are much more ethnically diverse. Some are recent immigrants from Africa, particularly West African nations like Nigeria and Ghana, while others are Afro-Caribbean descendants of people who came to the UK a long time ago and they sound exactly like the white people among whom they live. There was also a big influx of West Indians in the years immediately after the Second World War. The West Indian population has a dialect and an accent, but it's not shared at all with the African immigrants or with the native black British people."
**
Angela Mackie-Rutledge, Black British & American expatriot
Answered Jun 2, 2015
"When speaking to people on the phone here in the UK, I cannot discern their race, but I can more easily tell their class.
I talk to a lot of black people both here and in the USA. The only thing with some commonality is a young (under 25), urban, London accent - but I've heard Asians, whites and blacks speak this way, so it's not distinctly black.
The answer provided by Ernest W. Adams seems to be pretty right on."
****
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
Tuesday, July 25, 2017
Examples Of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" Children's Rhymes, Part II ("Dirty Versions)
Edited by Azizi Powell
This is Part II of a two part pancocojams series on children' rhymes that begin with the lyrics "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" or include those lyrics in that rhyme, and also use the tune of the 1891 vaudeville and music hall song entitled "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay".
Part II includes excerpts of several online articles about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes/songs. Part II also showcases selected examples of "sexualized" ("dirty") examples of ""Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
WARNING: These examples may be considered unsuitable for children.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2017/07/examples-of-ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.html for Part I of this two part pancocojams series. Part I provides information about the song "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" and includes comments about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes. Part I also showcases some examples of "clean" (not sexualized) examples of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
The content of this post is presented for folkloric, socio-cultural, and recreational purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
****
COMMENTS ABOUT WHY CHILDREN CHANT TAUNTING AND/OR ANTI-SOCIAL PARODIES OF SONGS/RHYMES
These excerpts are given in no particular order.
Excerpt #1:
From https://www.bl.uk/playtimes/articles/an-introduction-to-childrens-jokes-and-rude-rhymes
"An introduction to children's jokes and rude rhymes" by Michael Rosen, 26 Oct 2016
"Humour is an important component of children’s play, and nowhere is this more apparent than in their verbal play.
Humour serves a wide range of purposes, allowing children to challenge, undermine and disarm adult power and seriousness, to explore taboo topics as various as sex or toilets, and to experiment with dazzling displays of verbal dexterity. Many funny rhymes are ones which accompany specific games, activities, such as counting out, clapping or skipping. Rude variations of ‘Popeye the Sailor Man’, for example, accompanied clapping games in the mid-20th century. Others are simply performed and passed along for fun. Their humour, their cheek, their rhyme and rhythm, imagery, play on words and frequent parodic trades are all reasons why they appeal to children and why they’re memorable.
An important class of verbal humour is parody. The history of children’s language play abounds in parodic versions of different genres, Christmas carols, pop songs, advertising jingles, Valentine’s Day rhymes, Happy Birthday, football chants, musicals, TV theme songs. The wide variety of genres involved demonstrates a real mixing bowl of popular cultural references, where everything is up for grabs, nothing is sacred and the punch line is all. The sources are equally diverse, other children, adults, comics, books, television, films and the internet."...
****
Excerpt #2
From http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=381283&rel_no=1
Children Revel in Rude Rhymes: Democracy underpinned by the ability to question and mock authority
by Peter Hinchliffe (Hinchy), Published 2007-12-23
...."Judging by their playground chants and rhymes, children are possessed of a rebellious sense of humor. So it has been down the centuries...
While playing skipping and other games children chant rhymes that break taboos by poking fun at the adult world....
Children who challenge authority with a subversive, and often vulgar, rhyme grow up to be ever wary of authority.
And the ability to question, and sometimes, mock those who would run our lives for us is the firm foundation upon which democracy is built."...
****
Excerpt #3: Subject: RE: We Wear Our Hair In Curls
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 08:56 PM
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123101
From Where Texts and Children Meet by Eve Bearne, Victor Watson (London: Routledge, 2000), page 109:
"There were many other examples of games that seemed to reflect the strong influence of the energy and bravado exhibited and promoted by the Spice Girls. There was evidence of a particular confidence and exuberance in the way the girls were playing, which could be a response to the role models offered by pop groups like the Spice Girls. The following text shares many of these features; the girls who played this game felt that it was definitely taboo as far as adults were concerned. It was accompanied by rather gross and comical mime as they acted out the text, and is a good example of one of the many rhymes, many with long ancestry, that allow girls to 'make fun of the still unknown and rather frightening state of adulthood' (Opie 1997: 210)"
We are the teenage girls.
We wear our hair in curls.
We wear our dungarees
Down to our sexy knees.
I met a boy last night.
He gave me 50p
To go behind a bush
And have it off with me.
My mother was surprised
To see my belly rise,
But daddy jumped for joy.
It was a baby boy.
My mother done the splits
And had fifty fits.
What sort of text is this? Where has it come from?
As Iona Opie suggests, these mocking rhymes often have a long ancestry and this one certainly has an ancestry, if not a very long one. There is a version of 'We are the Teenage Girls' in The Singing Game that can be traced back to the 1970s:
-snip-
Jim Dixon quotes a clean example of 'We Are The ___ Girls" from Opie and Opie's book on children's games in the United Kingdom. That example, titled "We Are The Barbie Girls" and "We Are The Teenage Girls" example given above demonstrate the very close relationship between examples of the "We Are The __ Girls" children's rhyme family and the "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhyme family. That relationship is particularly evident in the dirty (sexualized) examples of both of those rhymes which share not only the same tune but also many of the same words.
****
Excerpt #4
From http://www.metafilter.com/88294/Rhymes-with-tararaboomdeay Rhymes with ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay. January 13, 2010 10:16 AM
"One of the research problems that plagues children's folklorists is the fact that kids are reluctant informants. Kids know that adults don't approve of most of their nastier, meaner, dirtier content, and won't share it easily - they don't want to embarass themselves or appear impolite or get in trouble. It's actually one of the hardest cultures for a scholar to penetrate; very insular, and protective of its own knowledge...."
posted by Miko at 11:01 AM on January 13, 2010
[...]
"Side note: A lot of these that are complete song parodies got to kids through the vector of the military. There's some overlap there. WWII generated a ton of popular song parodies that then went everywhere geographically. It doesn't take too many older brothers, big kids, or grandpas singing their off-color songs to pre-teen boys to get that stuff to enter kidlore.
posted by Miko at 1:06 PM on January 13, 2010
****
EXAMPLES OF "TA RA RA BOOM DE AY" CHILDREN'S RHYMES (CLEAN VERSIONS)
These examples are given in no particular order and are numbered for referencing purposes only.
DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a comprehensive compilation of these rhymes.
1.
I grew up in Western Massachusetts and remember learning the following version in the late 1960's
Ta-ra-ra- boom de-ay
How did I get this way
It was the boy next door
He laid me on the floor
He lifted up my skirt
And gave a little squirt
And right before my eyes
I say my belly rise.
-Tinker, 28 Aug 09, http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123101, hereafter known as "Mudcat discussion "We Wear Our Hair In Curls"
****
2.
we are the great meols girls
we wear our hair in curls
we wear our dungarees
down to our sexy knees.
sha la la bum-shi-ka
sha la la bum-shi-ka
you know the boy next door
he got me on the floor
he counted 1 2 3
and stuck it into me
sha la la bum-shi-ka
sha la la bum-shi-ka
then some other stuff about being pregnant and stuff...
i dunno...i forget. was an awesome song though.
sha la la bum-shi-ka
sha la la bum-shi-ka
okay, now i really can't remember any more...
*edit*
my daddy was suprised
to see my belly rise
my mummy jumped for joy, it was a baby boy
Note: A number of females and a few males (around the same age group) on this British forum indicated that they remembered this rhyme, and posted slightly different versions of it.
-quoted by Azizi Powell, 23 Aug 09 on "Mudcat discussion: We Wear Our Hair In Curls", from -Niamh; 18-03-2007, Location: Near Liverpool, Age: 19 on http://board.muse.mu/showthread.php?t=41853 [discussion site no longer available]
****
3.
TAH RAH RAH BOOM DI AY
Tah rah rah bom di ay
I can't come out today
It happened yesterday
The boy across the way
He paid me fifty cents
To go behind the fence
He said it wouldn't hurt
And pushed it up my skirt
My mommy was surprised
To see my belly rise
And hear the baby cry
Tah rah rah bom di ay
-http://mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5648
-snip-
No demographic information is given with this example.
****
4.
I learned one from my dad, who probably learned it in Toronto, circa 1958.
Tra la la boom de yay
Did you have yours today?
I had mine yesterday
That's why I walk this way!
I always thought it was supposed to be about inoculations, but I never actually asked my dad.
-Merav Hoffman December 9, 2009, comment in discussion of http://playgroundjungle.com/2009/12/ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.html "Ta ra ra boom de ay", by thor: Adam Selzer December 7, 2009 (with 74 comments as of July 25, 2017), hereafter given as "playground jungle" article, 2009".
-snip-
I initially included this example in Part I of this series. However, I think that this version has sexual connotations even when this is the entire rhyme. However, that sexualized connotation is "spelled out" in longer versions of this example, as shown below.
****
5.
Mom used to have a little diddy from her school years (Seattle, early 1950's) but cannot remember the last verse… it was:
Tra la la la boom de ay
Have you had yours today?
I had mine yesterday
Thats why I walk this way
He laid me on the couch
All I said was ouch……
Then there were two more lines but she cannot remember them!!! Anyone else know this version?
-Anonymous, October 10, 2011, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
[Reply]
6.
Tra la la boom de ay
have you had yours today
I had mine yesterday
that's why I feel this way
he laid me on the couch
and all I said was ouch
now junior's on the way
tra la la boom de ay
-Anonymous, November 17, 2011, (Bakersfield, CA 1957), comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
7.
Tra la la boom de ay
Did you get yours today?
I got mine yesterday
From the boy across the way
He gave me fifty cents
To go behind the fence
He pulled my panties down
And threw me on the ground
My mommy was surprised
To see my belly rise.
I can't go out to play
'Cause Junior's on the way.
-Anonymous, March 30, 2012, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
8.
I heard this version in Elmhurst, Queens, circa 1946. I learned it from a friend and sang it to my mother, who was not amused.
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay
Did you get yours today?
I got mine yesterday,
from a boy across the way.
My mother was surprised
to see my stomach rise.
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay, Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.
-Anita Gorman, February 12, 2013, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor: "1946" is the earliest date that I've found for "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes , whether they are clean or dirty. I have found other examples dated in the mid to late 1950s. I wonder if this is a typo and the commenter meant to write "1956".
****
9.
from late 50s early 60s MT
ta da da boom de eh
how did I get this way
it was the boy next door
he laid me on the floor
then to my surprise
my tummy began to rise
I remember still how hard
how hard my mommy cried
-la March 17, 2013, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
10.
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay
Have you had yours today?
I had mine yesterday
A girl upon the way
I laid her on the couch
And all she said was ouch!
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay
- Choti Giri March 27, 2014, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
11.
1970s-early 80s metro Boston area:
Tra la la boom de ay
How did I get this way?
It was the boy next door
He pushed me on the floor
He shouted 1 2 3
He stuck it into me
My mother was surprised
To see my belly rise
My father jumped for joy
It was a baby boy!
The baby boy part was always said with a sweet little, cutesy turn of voice. Children celebrating rape – what a world
-naydi April 11, 2014, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
12.
My friends and I grew up outside of Chicago in the early 1960's and we would sing it with these lyrics:
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay
Did you do yours today?
I did mine yesterday
I paid her fifty cents
To walk across the fence
She laid down on the couch
I shoved mine up her pouch
Her mother was surprised
To see her belly rise
Her dad was overjoyed
It was a baby boy
I have to admit that back then and at that age, the song didn't make much sense to me, but we boys all sang it anyway. It's interesting how many similar yet different versions there are… all local colloquialisms, I suppose. I wonder where the original "got her pregnant" version was started.
-AWG, Chicago area September 29, 2015,comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
13.
New York City – LA LA LA Boom Shaday Can’t Come Outside Today What Happened Yesterday A Boy Came Past My Way He Gave Me Fifty Cents To Lay Across The Beach He Said It Didn’t Hurt He Pulled Up My Skirt My Mother Is So Thrilled To Hear Its A Baby Boy My Father’s So Disgusted To See My Cherry Busted LA LA LA Boom Shaday Can’t Come Outside Today
-May, November 11, 2016, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
This concludes Part II of this two part series on "Tra La La Boom De Ay" Children's Rhymes.
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
This is Part II of a two part pancocojams series on children' rhymes that begin with the lyrics "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" or include those lyrics in that rhyme, and also use the tune of the 1891 vaudeville and music hall song entitled "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay".
Part II includes excerpts of several online articles about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes/songs. Part II also showcases selected examples of "sexualized" ("dirty") examples of ""Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
WARNING: These examples may be considered unsuitable for children.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2017/07/examples-of-ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.html for Part I of this two part pancocojams series. Part I provides information about the song "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" and includes comments about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes. Part I also showcases some examples of "clean" (not sexualized) examples of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
The content of this post is presented for folkloric, socio-cultural, and recreational purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
****
COMMENTS ABOUT WHY CHILDREN CHANT TAUNTING AND/OR ANTI-SOCIAL PARODIES OF SONGS/RHYMES
These excerpts are given in no particular order.
Excerpt #1:
From https://www.bl.uk/playtimes/articles/an-introduction-to-childrens-jokes-and-rude-rhymes
"An introduction to children's jokes and rude rhymes" by Michael Rosen, 26 Oct 2016
"Humour is an important component of children’s play, and nowhere is this more apparent than in their verbal play.
Humour serves a wide range of purposes, allowing children to challenge, undermine and disarm adult power and seriousness, to explore taboo topics as various as sex or toilets, and to experiment with dazzling displays of verbal dexterity. Many funny rhymes are ones which accompany specific games, activities, such as counting out, clapping or skipping. Rude variations of ‘Popeye the Sailor Man’, for example, accompanied clapping games in the mid-20th century. Others are simply performed and passed along for fun. Their humour, their cheek, their rhyme and rhythm, imagery, play on words and frequent parodic trades are all reasons why they appeal to children and why they’re memorable.
An important class of verbal humour is parody. The history of children’s language play abounds in parodic versions of different genres, Christmas carols, pop songs, advertising jingles, Valentine’s Day rhymes, Happy Birthday, football chants, musicals, TV theme songs. The wide variety of genres involved demonstrates a real mixing bowl of popular cultural references, where everything is up for grabs, nothing is sacred and the punch line is all. The sources are equally diverse, other children, adults, comics, books, television, films and the internet."...
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Excerpt #2
From http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=381283&rel_no=1
Children Revel in Rude Rhymes: Democracy underpinned by the ability to question and mock authority
by Peter Hinchliffe (Hinchy), Published 2007-12-23
...."Judging by their playground chants and rhymes, children are possessed of a rebellious sense of humor. So it has been down the centuries...
While playing skipping and other games children chant rhymes that break taboos by poking fun at the adult world....
Children who challenge authority with a subversive, and often vulgar, rhyme grow up to be ever wary of authority.
And the ability to question, and sometimes, mock those who would run our lives for us is the firm foundation upon which democracy is built."...
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Excerpt #3: Subject: RE: We Wear Our Hair In Curls
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 08:56 PM
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123101
From Where Texts and Children Meet by Eve Bearne, Victor Watson (London: Routledge, 2000), page 109:
"There were many other examples of games that seemed to reflect the strong influence of the energy and bravado exhibited and promoted by the Spice Girls. There was evidence of a particular confidence and exuberance in the way the girls were playing, which could be a response to the role models offered by pop groups like the Spice Girls. The following text shares many of these features; the girls who played this game felt that it was definitely taboo as far as adults were concerned. It was accompanied by rather gross and comical mime as they acted out the text, and is a good example of one of the many rhymes, many with long ancestry, that allow girls to 'make fun of the still unknown and rather frightening state of adulthood' (Opie 1997: 210)"
We are the teenage girls.
We wear our hair in curls.
We wear our dungarees
Down to our sexy knees.
I met a boy last night.
He gave me 50p
To go behind a bush
And have it off with me.
My mother was surprised
To see my belly rise,
But daddy jumped for joy.
It was a baby boy.
My mother done the splits
And had fifty fits.
What sort of text is this? Where has it come from?
As Iona Opie suggests, these mocking rhymes often have a long ancestry and this one certainly has an ancestry, if not a very long one. There is a version of 'We are the Teenage Girls' in The Singing Game that can be traced back to the 1970s:
-snip-
Jim Dixon quotes a clean example of 'We Are The ___ Girls" from Opie and Opie's book on children's games in the United Kingdom. That example, titled "We Are The Barbie Girls" and "We Are The Teenage Girls" example given above demonstrate the very close relationship between examples of the "We Are The __ Girls" children's rhyme family and the "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhyme family. That relationship is particularly evident in the dirty (sexualized) examples of both of those rhymes which share not only the same tune but also many of the same words.
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Excerpt #4
From http://www.metafilter.com/88294/Rhymes-with-tararaboomdeay Rhymes with ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay. January 13, 2010 10:16 AM
"One of the research problems that plagues children's folklorists is the fact that kids are reluctant informants. Kids know that adults don't approve of most of their nastier, meaner, dirtier content, and won't share it easily - they don't want to embarass themselves or appear impolite or get in trouble. It's actually one of the hardest cultures for a scholar to penetrate; very insular, and protective of its own knowledge...."
posted by Miko at 11:01 AM on January 13, 2010
[...]
"Side note: A lot of these that are complete song parodies got to kids through the vector of the military. There's some overlap there. WWII generated a ton of popular song parodies that then went everywhere geographically. It doesn't take too many older brothers, big kids, or grandpas singing their off-color songs to pre-teen boys to get that stuff to enter kidlore.
posted by Miko at 1:06 PM on January 13, 2010
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EXAMPLES OF "TA RA RA BOOM DE AY" CHILDREN'S RHYMES (CLEAN VERSIONS)
These examples are given in no particular order and are numbered for referencing purposes only.
DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a comprehensive compilation of these rhymes.
1.
I grew up in Western Massachusetts and remember learning the following version in the late 1960's
Ta-ra-ra- boom de-ay
How did I get this way
It was the boy next door
He laid me on the floor
He lifted up my skirt
And gave a little squirt
And right before my eyes
I say my belly rise.
-Tinker, 28 Aug 09, http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123101, hereafter known as "Mudcat discussion "We Wear Our Hair In Curls"
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2.
we are the great meols girls
we wear our hair in curls
we wear our dungarees
down to our sexy knees.
sha la la bum-shi-ka
sha la la bum-shi-ka
you know the boy next door
he got me on the floor
he counted 1 2 3
and stuck it into me
sha la la bum-shi-ka
sha la la bum-shi-ka
then some other stuff about being pregnant and stuff...
i dunno...i forget. was an awesome song though.
sha la la bum-shi-ka
sha la la bum-shi-ka
okay, now i really can't remember any more...
*edit*
my daddy was suprised
to see my belly rise
my mummy jumped for joy, it was a baby boy
Note: A number of females and a few males (around the same age group) on this British forum indicated that they remembered this rhyme, and posted slightly different versions of it.
-quoted by Azizi Powell, 23 Aug 09 on "Mudcat discussion: We Wear Our Hair In Curls", from -Niamh; 18-03-2007, Location: Near Liverpool, Age: 19 on http://board.muse.mu/showthread.php?t=41853 [discussion site no longer available]
****
3.
TAH RAH RAH BOOM DI AY
Tah rah rah bom di ay
I can't come out today
It happened yesterday
The boy across the way
He paid me fifty cents
To go behind the fence
He said it wouldn't hurt
And pushed it up my skirt
My mommy was surprised
To see my belly rise
And hear the baby cry
Tah rah rah bom di ay
-http://mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5648
-snip-
No demographic information is given with this example.
****
4.
I learned one from my dad, who probably learned it in Toronto, circa 1958.
Tra la la boom de yay
Did you have yours today?
I had mine yesterday
That's why I walk this way!
I always thought it was supposed to be about inoculations, but I never actually asked my dad.
-Merav Hoffman December 9, 2009, comment in discussion of http://playgroundjungle.com/2009/12/ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.html "Ta ra ra boom de ay", by thor: Adam Selzer December 7, 2009 (with 74 comments as of July 25, 2017), hereafter given as "playground jungle" article, 2009".
-snip-
I initially included this example in Part I of this series. However, I think that this version has sexual connotations even when this is the entire rhyme. However, that sexualized connotation is "spelled out" in longer versions of this example, as shown below.
****
5.
Mom used to have a little diddy from her school years (Seattle, early 1950's) but cannot remember the last verse… it was:
Tra la la la boom de ay
Have you had yours today?
I had mine yesterday
Thats why I walk this way
He laid me on the couch
All I said was ouch……
Then there were two more lines but she cannot remember them!!! Anyone else know this version?
-Anonymous, October 10, 2011, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
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[Reply]
6.
Tra la la boom de ay
have you had yours today
I had mine yesterday
that's why I feel this way
he laid me on the couch
and all I said was ouch
now junior's on the way
tra la la boom de ay
-Anonymous, November 17, 2011, (Bakersfield, CA 1957), comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
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7.
Tra la la boom de ay
Did you get yours today?
I got mine yesterday
From the boy across the way
He gave me fifty cents
To go behind the fence
He pulled my panties down
And threw me on the ground
My mommy was surprised
To see my belly rise.
I can't go out to play
'Cause Junior's on the way.
-Anonymous, March 30, 2012, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
8.
I heard this version in Elmhurst, Queens, circa 1946. I learned it from a friend and sang it to my mother, who was not amused.
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay
Did you get yours today?
I got mine yesterday,
from a boy across the way.
My mother was surprised
to see my stomach rise.
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay, Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.
-Anita Gorman, February 12, 2013, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor: "1946" is the earliest date that I've found for "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes , whether they are clean or dirty. I have found other examples dated in the mid to late 1950s. I wonder if this is a typo and the commenter meant to write "1956".
****
9.
from late 50s early 60s MT
ta da da boom de eh
how did I get this way
it was the boy next door
he laid me on the floor
then to my surprise
my tummy began to rise
I remember still how hard
how hard my mommy cried
-la March 17, 2013, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
10.
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay
Have you had yours today?
I had mine yesterday
A girl upon the way
I laid her on the couch
And all she said was ouch!
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay
- Choti Giri March 27, 2014, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
11.
1970s-early 80s metro Boston area:
Tra la la boom de ay
How did I get this way?
It was the boy next door
He pushed me on the floor
He shouted 1 2 3
He stuck it into me
My mother was surprised
To see my belly rise
My father jumped for joy
It was a baby boy!
The baby boy part was always said with a sweet little, cutesy turn of voice. Children celebrating rape – what a world
-naydi April 11, 2014, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
12.
My friends and I grew up outside of Chicago in the early 1960's and we would sing it with these lyrics:
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay
Did you do yours today?
I did mine yesterday
I paid her fifty cents
To walk across the fence
She laid down on the couch
I shoved mine up her pouch
Her mother was surprised
To see her belly rise
Her dad was overjoyed
It was a baby boy
I have to admit that back then and at that age, the song didn't make much sense to me, but we boys all sang it anyway. It's interesting how many similar yet different versions there are… all local colloquialisms, I suppose. I wonder where the original "got her pregnant" version was started.
-AWG, Chicago area September 29, 2015,comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
13.
New York City – LA LA LA Boom Shaday Can’t Come Outside Today What Happened Yesterday A Boy Came Past My Way He Gave Me Fifty Cents To Lay Across The Beach He Said It Didn’t Hurt He Pulled Up My Skirt My Mother Is So Thrilled To Hear Its A Baby Boy My Father’s So Disgusted To See My Cherry Busted LA LA LA Boom Shaday Can’t Come Outside Today
-May, November 11, 2016, comment in article "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
This concludes Part II of this two part series on "Tra La La Boom De Ay" Children's Rhymes.
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
Examples Of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" Children's Rhymes, Part I (Clean Versions)
Edited by Azizi Powell
This is Part I of a two part pancocojams series on children' rhymes that begin with the lyrics "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" or include those lyrics in that rhyme, and also use the tune of the 1891 vaudeville and music hall song entitled "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay".
Part I provides information about the song "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" and includes comments about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes. Part I also showcases some examples of "clean" (not sexualized) examples of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
Part I provides information about the song "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" and includes excerpts of several online articles about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes/songs. Part I also showcases some examples of "clean" (not sexualized) examples of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2017/07/examples-of-ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay_25.html for Part II of this series. Part II includes excerpts of several online articles about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes/songs. Part II also showcases selected examples of "sexualized" ("dirty") examples of ""Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
The content of this post is presented for folkloric, socio-cultural, and recreational purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
****
INFORMATION ABOUT THE SONG "TA RA RA BOOM DE AY"
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta-ra-ra_Boom-de-ay
"Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay" is a vaudeville and music hall song. The song's first known public performance was in Henry J. Sayers' 1891 revue Tuxedo, which was performed in Boston, Massachusetts. The song became widely known in the version sung by Lottie Collins in London music halls in 1892.[1] The tune was later used in various contexts, including as the theme song to the television show Howdy Doody.
Background
The song's authorship was disputed for some years.[2] It was originally credited to Sayers, who was the manager of the George Thatcher Minstrels; Sayers used the song in his 1891 production Tuxedo, a minstrel farce variety show in which "Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay" was sung by Mamie Gilroy.[3][4] However, Sayers later said that he had not written the song, but had heard it performed in the 1880s by a black singer, Mama Lou, in a well-known St. Louis brothel run by "Babe" Connors.[1]
Stephen Cooney, Lottie Collins' husband, heard the song in Tuxedo and purchased from Sayers rights for Collins to perform the song in England.[2] Collins worked up a dance routine around it, and, with new words by Richard Morton and a new arrangement by Angelo A. Asher, she first sang the song at the Tivoli Music Hall on The Strand in London in 1891 to an enthusiastic reception; it became her signature tune.[5] She performed it to great acclaim in the 1892 adaptation of Edmond Audran's opérette, Miss Helyett. According to reviews at the time, Collins delivered the suggestive verses with deceptive demureness, before launching into the lusty refrain and her celebrated "kick dance", a kind of cancan in which, according to one reviewer, "she turns, twists, contorts, revolutionizes, and disports her lithe and muscular figure into a hundred different poses, all bizarre".[6]"....
-snip-
Click http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=17453&messages=31 http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=17453&messages=31 for a discussion about the origin of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay", including possible sources for that 19th century vaudeville and music hall song.
****
GENERAL DESCRIPTION ABOUT "TA RA RA BOOM DE AY" CHILDREN'S RHYMES
From http://playgroundjungle.com/2009/12/ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.html "Ta ra ra boom de ay", by thor: Adam Selzer December 7, 2009 (with 74 comments as of July 25, 2017)
"Parodies of the 1890s tune “Ta rah ra boom de ay” come in two distinct versions: one about a dead teacher, and one about sex. If there’s one about bodily functions out there, it’d be a regular trifecta!
I don’t know the REAL “Ta ra ra boom de ay” song at all, but I do know the dead teacher version. It’s because of this that I thought sauerkraut was a type of fish for years."...
-snip-
At least two commenters shared "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children parodies about people farting which fits the "bodily functions" description.
In addition to those three categories, a number of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children rhymes refer to people loosing their "knickers" (panties) or otherwise being naked.
I include the "dead teacher" versions, the bodily function versions, and loosing "knicker" (panties)/naked person versions of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" rhymes as "clean" versions of that rhyme family. The "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" rhymes about a girl being raped by a neighborhood boy and giving birth to a baby boy are categorized as "sexualized"/"dirty" versions of that rhyme family.
Although some articles indicate that "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes were "sung" while skipping, it appears that nowadays (and maybe since at least the 1970s) those rhymes are usually sung without any any accompanying movements.
The children's rhyme "We Are The __ Girls/We Wear Our Hair In Curls" is closely related rhyme to "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" rhymes. "We Are The __ Girls" have the same tune as the "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" [song], and has "clean" and "dirty" versions. The words to the "dirty" (sexualized) versions are very similar if not the same as the words to the "dirty" (sexualized) versions of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay".
Click http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123101 for a Mudcat folk music discussion thread on "We Are The __ Girls" that I started in 2009. Here's a "clean" version of "We Are The __ Girls":
We are the Barbie girls.
We wear our hair in curls.
We wear our dungarees
To hide our dirty knees.
We wear our father's shirt.
We wear our brother's tie,
And when we want a guy,
We simply wink the eye.
(Opie and Opie The Singing Game, 1985: 478)
-snip-
This example was posted in the above mentioned Mudcat discussion thread by Jim Dixon, 07 Sep 09 - 08:56 PM. It has been traced to the 1970s [United Kingdom].
[Added July 26/1017]
Here's an example of "We wear our hair in curls" that mentions mini-skirts and>/i> includes the "toys/boys" line:
we're scoil mhuire girls!
we wear our hair in curls
we wear our dungarees above our sexy knees!
sha la la boom sha la sha la la boom sha la
we're scoil mhuire girls!
we wear our hair in curls
we wear our daddy's shirts over our mini-skirts!
sha la la boom sha la sha la la boom sha la
we're the scoil mhuire girls! we wear our hair in curls
and when it comes to toys
we'd rather play with boys!
sha la la boom sha la sha la la boom sha la
we're scoil mhuire girls!
we wear our hair in curls we don't smoke or drink
that's what our teachers think!
sha la la boom sha la sha la la boom sha la
-snip-
This example is from a website that is no longer available. On August 26, 2017 I quoted this rhyme in the "We Wear Our Hair In Curls" Mudcat discussion thread whose link is given above.
The "sha la la boom sha la" words are a form of "Ta ra ra boom de ay".
****
COMMENTS ABOUT WHY CHILDREN CHANT TAUNTING AND/OR ANTI-SOCIAL PARODIES OF SONGS/RHYMES
These two excerpts are given in no particular order
Excerpt #1:
From https://www.bl.uk/playtimes/articles/an-introduction-to-childrens-jokes-and-rude-rhymes
"An introduction to children's jokes and rude rhymes" by Michael Rosen, 26 Oct 2016
"Humour is an important component of children’s play, and nowhere is this more apparent than in their verbal play.
Humour serves a wide range of purposes, allowing children to challenge, undermine and disarm adult power and seriousness, to explore taboo topics as various as sex or toilets, and to experiment with dazzling displays of verbal dexterity. Many funny rhymes are ones which accompany specific games, activities, such as counting out, clapping or skipping. Rude variations of ‘Popeye the Sailor Man’, for example, accompanied clapping games in the mid-20th century. Others are simply performed and passed along for fun. Their humour, their cheek, their rhyme and rhythm, imagery, play on words and frequent parodic trades are all reasons why they appeal to children and why they’re memorable.
An important class of verbal humour is parody. The history of children’s language play abounds in parodic versions of different genres, Christmas carols, pop songs, advertising jingles, Valentine’s Day rhymes, Happy Birthday, football chants, musicals, TV theme songs. The wide variety of genres involved demonstrates a real mixing bowl of popular cultural references, where everything is up for grabs, nothing is sacred and the punch line is all. The sources are equally diverse, other children, adults, comics, books, television, films and the internet."...
****
Excerpt #2
From http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=381283&rel_no=1
Children Revel in Rude Rhymes: Democracy underpinned by the ability to question and mock authority
by Peter Hinchliffe (Hinchy), Published 2007-12-23
...."Judging by their playground chants and rhymes, children are possessed of a rebellious sense of humor. So it has been down the centuries...
While playing skipping and other games children chant rhymes that break taboos by poking fun at the adult world....
Children who challenge authority with a subversive, and often vulgar, rhyme grow up to be ever wary of authority.
And the ability to question, and sometimes, mock those who would run our lives for us is the firm foundation upon which democracy is built."...
****
EXAMPLES OF "TA RA RA BOOM DE AY" CHILDREN'S RHYMES (CLEAN VERSIONS)
These examples are given in no particular order and are numbered for referencing purposes only.
DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a comprehensive compilation of these rhymes.
1.
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay!
My knickers flew away
They came back yesterday
From a little holiday
-http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=381283&rel_no=1
Children Revel in Rude Rhymes: Democracy underpinned by the ability to question and mock authority
by Peter Hinchliffe (Hinchy), Published 2007-12-23
-snip-
This example is described as a "skipping rhyme that have echoed round many a playground during recent decades"
****
2.
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay,
There is no school today!
The teacher passed away
Because of tooth decay.
We threw her in the bay;
She scared the sharks away.
-http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2795
Subject: RE: Heigh Ho, Heigh Ho, I Bit the Teacher's Toe!, Jerry Friedman, 13 Sep 97,
-snip-
This rhyme is describes as "possibly from San Francisco"
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3.
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay! My Knickers Flew Away
Jump Rope Rhyme
Ta ra ra boom de ay
My knickers flew away
I found them yesterday
On the M6 motorway.
-http://www.mamalisa.com/?t=es&p=5199, Paul
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4. Ta ra ra boom de ay
we had no school today
our teacher passed away
we threw her in the bay
she scared the fish away
she won’t come out
she smells like sauerkraut
ta ra ra boom de ay.
I first heard this the same day I heard “Joy To The World The Teacher’s Dead.” They were sung in a medly by a kid who sat behind me in first grade....
- http://playgroundjungle.com/2009/12/ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.html "Ta ra ra boom de ay", by thor: Adam Selzer December 7, 2009 (with 74 comments as of July 25, 2017), hereafter given as "playground jungle" article, 2009".
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5. Iona Opie collected this on[e] in the 70s:[United Kingdom]
Ta ra ra boom de ay
my knickers flew away
they had a holiday
they came back yesterday
-"playground jungle" article, 2009
****
6. Chicago, early 90's:
Ta ra ra boom de ay
I stole your pants away
and left you standing there
In day-old underwear (or dirty underwear)
Anonymous, August 6, 2011, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
7. Tra la la boom dee day my knickers flew away, they went on holiday,
They came back yesterday.
They said they had some fun,
they found another bum.
…..
My father knows the rest but wont tell me.
-Anonymous December 15, 2011, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
8. Tra la la boom see ay
they took my pants away
they made me sit there
without my underwear.
St Louis 60s
- Anonymous, May 23, 2012, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
9. My grandfather used to sing it Tra La La Boom De A
They took my pants away
They threw me in the air
Without any underwear.
-Jayson Cooper July 4, 2012, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
10. I remember this version from the early 1970's Philadelphia area…
Tra la la boom de ay
We have no school today
Our teacher passed away
We shot her yesterday.
As for the principal
he's in the hospital,
As for the secretary
She's in the cemetery.
As for the janitor
He ran off to Canad(er)
Tra la la boom de ay
We have no school today.
- dalas66, March 8, 2013, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
11. This one was from my grandma; from the 1950’s in Ontario. She came from Germany after the war….so maybe a creative Anglo version? Kids sang a song with the same tune in Europe in the 1930-40’s she said.
Ta ra ra boom de ay
Did you wash your bum today?
I washed it yesterday,
To keep the flies away
It smelled so bad you see
Nobody would sit by me
Now Ii am so happy
Etc.
-Desan November 29, 2015, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
12. ...From Virginia in the ’70s”
Tah Rah Rah Boom Dee Yay
Oh what I ate today!
Gave me a tummy ache
That lasted all the day!
And the rest (there WAS a rest, I’m sure) has blown away in the sands of time.
-Jesse M. December 9, 2016, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
13. Here’s .... as I learned it in Maine circa 1980…
Ta ra ra boom de ay
There is no school today
Our teacher cut a fart
It blew the school apart
-Eric March 2, 2017, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
14. We sang this version on coach day trips in the UK in the 1970s.
I only recollect there being 1 verse, before we kids all dissolved into giggles at saying the “naughty” “kn…” word – LOL!
This song was sung by us kids during the long travel journeys that we were stuck on, in a coach on the motorway/road. This was during coach trips organised for the church/church choir, or maybe even the trips run for us Brownies! It was on journeys with either one or both of these childhood hobbies – I can’t remember exactly which group trip it was: I just remember the coach part! If it was the Brownies, then it would have been pretty daring for girls under 11, in those days anyway! ,-)
"Ta ra ra boom de ay
My knickers flew away
I found them yesterday
Along the motorway “
-Southern Belle May 6, 2017, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
15. This may be very strange, but I remeber kids on the play ground singing
a version of Ta ra ra Boom de ay. I won't say where, but will hint at when (early to middle 1970's), in elementary school. I can't name the tune, but the lryics went something like this:
Ta Ra Ra BOOM De ay,
the took my clothes away.
Any left me standing there
In Playtex underwear.
I can't help that I grew up on an Army base in the South,
Okay??!!?!!??!? (a small hint)
-Lisa Akers, 4/6/00, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.tv.dark_shadows/nXirYD45eY0
****
16.
"... I think those are the last two lines to the version I learned in elementary school:
Ta Ra Ra Boom Dee Ay
We are the CIA
While you're standing there
We'll take your underwear.
-Kate, 4/6/00, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.tv.dark_shadows/nXirYD45eY0
****
17.
TA-RA-RA-BOOM-DE-AY,
I'LL TAKE YOUR PANTS AWAY,
AND WHILE YOU'RE STANDING THERE,
I'LL TAKE YOUR UNDERWEAR.
Submitter comment: SCHOOLBOY "OFFCOLOR" RHYME.
PASSED AROUND DURING GRADES 4-6.
-https://research.udmercy.edu/find/special_collections/digital/cfa/index.php?fl_id=161
The James T. Callow Folklore Archive
****
This concludes Part I of this two part pancocojams series on "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" Children's Rhymes.
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
This is Part I of a two part pancocojams series on children' rhymes that begin with the lyrics "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" or include those lyrics in that rhyme, and also use the tune of the 1891 vaudeville and music hall song entitled "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay".
Part I provides information about the song "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" and includes comments about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes. Part I also showcases some examples of "clean" (not sexualized) examples of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
Part I provides information about the song "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" and includes excerpts of several online articles about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes/songs. Part I also showcases some examples of "clean" (not sexualized) examples of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2017/07/examples-of-ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay_25.html for Part II of this series. Part II includes excerpts of several online articles about the reasons why children chant anti-social and "rude" rhymes/songs. Part II also showcases selected examples of "sexualized" ("dirty") examples of ""Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes.
The content of this post is presented for folkloric, socio-cultural, and recreational purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
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INFORMATION ABOUT THE SONG "TA RA RA BOOM DE AY"
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta-ra-ra_Boom-de-ay
"Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay" is a vaudeville and music hall song. The song's first known public performance was in Henry J. Sayers' 1891 revue Tuxedo, which was performed in Boston, Massachusetts. The song became widely known in the version sung by Lottie Collins in London music halls in 1892.[1] The tune was later used in various contexts, including as the theme song to the television show Howdy Doody.
Background
The song's authorship was disputed for some years.[2] It was originally credited to Sayers, who was the manager of the George Thatcher Minstrels; Sayers used the song in his 1891 production Tuxedo, a minstrel farce variety show in which "Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay" was sung by Mamie Gilroy.[3][4] However, Sayers later said that he had not written the song, but had heard it performed in the 1880s by a black singer, Mama Lou, in a well-known St. Louis brothel run by "Babe" Connors.[1]
Stephen Cooney, Lottie Collins' husband, heard the song in Tuxedo and purchased from Sayers rights for Collins to perform the song in England.[2] Collins worked up a dance routine around it, and, with new words by Richard Morton and a new arrangement by Angelo A. Asher, she first sang the song at the Tivoli Music Hall on The Strand in London in 1891 to an enthusiastic reception; it became her signature tune.[5] She performed it to great acclaim in the 1892 adaptation of Edmond Audran's opérette, Miss Helyett. According to reviews at the time, Collins delivered the suggestive verses with deceptive demureness, before launching into the lusty refrain and her celebrated "kick dance", a kind of cancan in which, according to one reviewer, "she turns, twists, contorts, revolutionizes, and disports her lithe and muscular figure into a hundred different poses, all bizarre".[6]"....
-snip-
Click http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=17453&messages=31 http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=17453&messages=31 for a discussion about the origin of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay", including possible sources for that 19th century vaudeville and music hall song.
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GENERAL DESCRIPTION ABOUT "TA RA RA BOOM DE AY" CHILDREN'S RHYMES
From http://playgroundjungle.com/2009/12/ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.html "Ta ra ra boom de ay", by thor: Adam Selzer December 7, 2009 (with 74 comments as of July 25, 2017)
"Parodies of the 1890s tune “Ta rah ra boom de ay” come in two distinct versions: one about a dead teacher, and one about sex. If there’s one about bodily functions out there, it’d be a regular trifecta!
I don’t know the REAL “Ta ra ra boom de ay” song at all, but I do know the dead teacher version. It’s because of this that I thought sauerkraut was a type of fish for years."...
-snip-
At least two commenters shared "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children parodies about people farting which fits the "bodily functions" description.
In addition to those three categories, a number of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children rhymes refer to people loosing their "knickers" (panties) or otherwise being naked.
I include the "dead teacher" versions, the bodily function versions, and loosing "knicker" (panties)/naked person versions of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" rhymes as "clean" versions of that rhyme family. The "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" rhymes about a girl being raped by a neighborhood boy and giving birth to a baby boy are categorized as "sexualized"/"dirty" versions of that rhyme family.
Although some articles indicate that "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" children's rhymes were "sung" while skipping, it appears that nowadays (and maybe since at least the 1970s) those rhymes are usually sung without any any accompanying movements.
The children's rhyme "We Are The __ Girls/We Wear Our Hair In Curls" is closely related rhyme to "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" rhymes. "We Are The __ Girls" have the same tune as the "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" [song], and has "clean" and "dirty" versions. The words to the "dirty" (sexualized) versions are very similar if not the same as the words to the "dirty" (sexualized) versions of "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay".
Click http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123101 for a Mudcat folk music discussion thread on "We Are The __ Girls" that I started in 2009. Here's a "clean" version of "We Are The __ Girls":
We are the Barbie girls.
We wear our hair in curls.
We wear our dungarees
To hide our dirty knees.
We wear our father's shirt.
We wear our brother's tie,
And when we want a guy,
We simply wink the eye.
(Opie and Opie The Singing Game, 1985: 478)
-snip-
This example was posted in the above mentioned Mudcat discussion thread by Jim Dixon, 07 Sep 09 - 08:56 PM. It has been traced to the 1970s [United Kingdom].
[Added July 26/1017]
Here's an example of "We wear our hair in curls" that mentions mini-skirts and>/i> includes the "toys/boys" line:
we're scoil mhuire girls!
we wear our hair in curls
we wear our dungarees above our sexy knees!
sha la la boom sha la sha la la boom sha la
we're scoil mhuire girls!
we wear our hair in curls
we wear our daddy's shirts over our mini-skirts!
sha la la boom sha la sha la la boom sha la
we're the scoil mhuire girls! we wear our hair in curls
and when it comes to toys
we'd rather play with boys!
sha la la boom sha la sha la la boom sha la
we're scoil mhuire girls!
we wear our hair in curls we don't smoke or drink
that's what our teachers think!
sha la la boom sha la sha la la boom sha la
-snip-
This example is from a website that is no longer available. On August 26, 2017 I quoted this rhyme in the "We Wear Our Hair In Curls" Mudcat discussion thread whose link is given above.
The "sha la la boom sha la" words are a form of "Ta ra ra boom de ay".
****
COMMENTS ABOUT WHY CHILDREN CHANT TAUNTING AND/OR ANTI-SOCIAL PARODIES OF SONGS/RHYMES
These two excerpts are given in no particular order
Excerpt #1:
From https://www.bl.uk/playtimes/articles/an-introduction-to-childrens-jokes-and-rude-rhymes
"An introduction to children's jokes and rude rhymes" by Michael Rosen, 26 Oct 2016
"Humour is an important component of children’s play, and nowhere is this more apparent than in their verbal play.
Humour serves a wide range of purposes, allowing children to challenge, undermine and disarm adult power and seriousness, to explore taboo topics as various as sex or toilets, and to experiment with dazzling displays of verbal dexterity. Many funny rhymes are ones which accompany specific games, activities, such as counting out, clapping or skipping. Rude variations of ‘Popeye the Sailor Man’, for example, accompanied clapping games in the mid-20th century. Others are simply performed and passed along for fun. Their humour, their cheek, their rhyme and rhythm, imagery, play on words and frequent parodic trades are all reasons why they appeal to children and why they’re memorable.
An important class of verbal humour is parody. The history of children’s language play abounds in parodic versions of different genres, Christmas carols, pop songs, advertising jingles, Valentine’s Day rhymes, Happy Birthday, football chants, musicals, TV theme songs. The wide variety of genres involved demonstrates a real mixing bowl of popular cultural references, where everything is up for grabs, nothing is sacred and the punch line is all. The sources are equally diverse, other children, adults, comics, books, television, films and the internet."...
****
Excerpt #2
From http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=381283&rel_no=1
Children Revel in Rude Rhymes: Democracy underpinned by the ability to question and mock authority
by Peter Hinchliffe (Hinchy), Published 2007-12-23
...."Judging by their playground chants and rhymes, children are possessed of a rebellious sense of humor. So it has been down the centuries...
While playing skipping and other games children chant rhymes that break taboos by poking fun at the adult world....
Children who challenge authority with a subversive, and often vulgar, rhyme grow up to be ever wary of authority.
And the ability to question, and sometimes, mock those who would run our lives for us is the firm foundation upon which democracy is built."...
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EXAMPLES OF "TA RA RA BOOM DE AY" CHILDREN'S RHYMES (CLEAN VERSIONS)
These examples are given in no particular order and are numbered for referencing purposes only.
DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a comprehensive compilation of these rhymes.
1.
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay!
My knickers flew away
They came back yesterday
From a little holiday
-http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=381283&rel_no=1
Children Revel in Rude Rhymes: Democracy underpinned by the ability to question and mock authority
by Peter Hinchliffe (Hinchy), Published 2007-12-23
-snip-
This example is described as a "skipping rhyme that have echoed round many a playground during recent decades"
****
2.
Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay,
There is no school today!
The teacher passed away
Because of tooth decay.
We threw her in the bay;
She scared the sharks away.
-http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2795
Subject: RE: Heigh Ho, Heigh Ho, I Bit the Teacher's Toe!, Jerry Friedman, 13 Sep 97,
-snip-
This rhyme is describes as "possibly from San Francisco"
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3.
Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay! My Knickers Flew Away
Jump Rope Rhyme
Ta ra ra boom de ay
My knickers flew away
I found them yesterday
On the M6 motorway.
-http://www.mamalisa.com/?t=es&p=5199, Paul
****
4. Ta ra ra boom de ay
we had no school today
our teacher passed away
we threw her in the bay
she scared the fish away
she won’t come out
she smells like sauerkraut
ta ra ra boom de ay.
I first heard this the same day I heard “Joy To The World The Teacher’s Dead.” They were sung in a medly by a kid who sat behind me in first grade....
- http://playgroundjungle.com/2009/12/ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay.html "Ta ra ra boom de ay", by thor: Adam Selzer December 7, 2009 (with 74 comments as of July 25, 2017), hereafter given as "playground jungle" article, 2009".
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5. Iona Opie collected this on[e] in the 70s:[United Kingdom]
Ta ra ra boom de ay
my knickers flew away
they had a holiday
they came back yesterday
-"playground jungle" article, 2009
****
6. Chicago, early 90's:
Ta ra ra boom de ay
I stole your pants away
and left you standing there
In day-old underwear (or dirty underwear)
Anonymous, August 6, 2011, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
7. Tra la la boom dee day my knickers flew away, they went on holiday,
They came back yesterday.
They said they had some fun,
they found another bum.
…..
My father knows the rest but wont tell me.
-Anonymous December 15, 2011, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
8. Tra la la boom see ay
they took my pants away
they made me sit there
without my underwear.
St Louis 60s
- Anonymous, May 23, 2012, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
9. My grandfather used to sing it Tra La La Boom De A
They took my pants away
They threw me in the air
Without any underwear.
-Jayson Cooper July 4, 2012, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
10. I remember this version from the early 1970's Philadelphia area…
Tra la la boom de ay
We have no school today
Our teacher passed away
We shot her yesterday.
As for the principal
he's in the hospital,
As for the secretary
She's in the cemetery.
As for the janitor
He ran off to Canad(er)
Tra la la boom de ay
We have no school today.
- dalas66, March 8, 2013, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
11. This one was from my grandma; from the 1950’s in Ontario. She came from Germany after the war….so maybe a creative Anglo version? Kids sang a song with the same tune in Europe in the 1930-40’s she said.
Ta ra ra boom de ay
Did you wash your bum today?
I washed it yesterday,
To keep the flies away
It smelled so bad you see
Nobody would sit by me
Now Ii am so happy
Etc.
-Desan November 29, 2015, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
12. ...From Virginia in the ’70s”
Tah Rah Rah Boom Dee Yay
Oh what I ate today!
Gave me a tummy ache
That lasted all the day!
And the rest (there WAS a rest, I’m sure) has blown away in the sands of time.
-Jesse M. December 9, 2016, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
13. Here’s .... as I learned it in Maine circa 1980…
Ta ra ra boom de ay
There is no school today
Our teacher cut a fart
It blew the school apart
-Eric March 2, 2017, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
14. We sang this version on coach day trips in the UK in the 1970s.
I only recollect there being 1 verse, before we kids all dissolved into giggles at saying the “naughty” “kn…” word – LOL!
This song was sung by us kids during the long travel journeys that we were stuck on, in a coach on the motorway/road. This was during coach trips organised for the church/church choir, or maybe even the trips run for us Brownies! It was on journeys with either one or both of these childhood hobbies – I can’t remember exactly which group trip it was: I just remember the coach part! If it was the Brownies, then it would have been pretty daring for girls under 11, in those days anyway! ,-)
"Ta ra ra boom de ay
My knickers flew away
I found them yesterday
Along the motorway “
-Southern Belle May 6, 2017, comment in discussion of "playground jungle" article, 2009
****
15. This may be very strange, but I remeber kids on the play ground singing
a version of Ta ra ra Boom de ay. I won't say where, but will hint at when (early to middle 1970's), in elementary school. I can't name the tune, but the lryics went something like this:
Ta Ra Ra BOOM De ay,
the took my clothes away.
Any left me standing there
In Playtex underwear.
I can't help that I grew up on an Army base in the South,
Okay??!!?!!??!? (a small hint)
-Lisa Akers, 4/6/00, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.tv.dark_shadows/nXirYD45eY0
****
16.
"... I think those are the last two lines to the version I learned in elementary school:
Ta Ra Ra Boom Dee Ay
We are the CIA
While you're standing there
We'll take your underwear.
-Kate, 4/6/00, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.tv.dark_shadows/nXirYD45eY0
****
17.
TA-RA-RA-BOOM-DE-AY,
I'LL TAKE YOUR PANTS AWAY,
AND WHILE YOU'RE STANDING THERE,
I'LL TAKE YOUR UNDERWEAR.
Submitter comment: SCHOOLBOY "OFFCOLOR" RHYME.
PASSED AROUND DURING GRADES 4-6.
-https://research.udmercy.edu/find/special_collections/digital/cfa/index.php?fl_id=161
The James T. Callow Folklore Archive
****
This concludes Part I of this two part pancocojams series on "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" Children's Rhymes.
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