Edited by Azizi Powell
Latest revision- August 18, 2023
This pancocojams post presents some comments from Mudcat Discussion Forum* about Anti-Chinese Songs Such As "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" & "The Crazy Baldheaded Chinese".
This post also shares my opinions about whether, when, and how these songs (and songs like them) should be sung.
The content of this post is presented for socio-cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those whose examples are included in this post.
-snip-
This post is part of an ongoing pancocojams series about this song. Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/09/racially-derogatory-variants-of-old.html for the pancocojams post entitled "The Crazy Baldheaded Chinese' Songs" Are Racially Derogatory Variants Of The Song "Old Shoe Boots And Leggings".
Also, click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2023/08/examples-of-crazy-baldheaded-chinese.html. for the pancocojams post entitled "Examples Of "The Crazy Baldheaded Chinese" Song That Include Contributors' Demographic Information".
-snip-
*Mudcat is an online international folk music forum. I was a member of Mudcat from 2004 to 2014. Almost all of the songs that are discussed on that forum are from Anglo-American and Anglo-European cultures. That forum also includes some discussion threads on certain types of Black American songs, on British and American children's rhymes, as well as a small amount of Caribbean folk songs. My main interest at Mudcat was English language children's recreational rhymes.
Both members and guests can post on Mudcat (i.e. add new discussion threads and/or comments to previous discussion threads). Almost all of the discussion threads are open to new comments regardless of how long ago those discussion threads were started.
****
COMMENTS FROM TWO MUDCAT DISCUSSION THREADS ABOUT THE SONGS "ONCE IN CHINA THERE LIVED A GREAT MAN" (or other titles for that song) AND 'THE CRAZY BALDHEADED CHINESE"
Numbers are added for referencing purposes only.
A. https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=6971
1.
Subject: RE: Lyrics requested ... Once in China
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:23 AM
"From the TIME Magazine archive: (with formatting changed a bit by me)
"Chickery Chick
Dec. 3, 1945
In China there lived a little man
His name was Chingery-ri-chan-chan,
His feet were large and his head was small,
And this little man had no brains at all.
Chingery-rico-rico-day ekel tekel Happy man.
Kuan-a-desco cartty-o gallopy-wallopy-china-go.
Last week this old tongue twister, with new and even less intelligible lyrics, was the fast-climbing No. 2 seller in Billboard magazine's poll of record sales. It was well on its way to join Mairzy Doats and the Hut Sut Song in the jabberwocky Valhalla of the jukebox. Twenty-nine-year-old Arkansas-born Jo Proffitt had changed the Chinaman into a chick, and called it Chickery Chick. She sent the lyrics to Tin Pan Alleysmith Sidney Lippman, who added some new notes. Now it describes a chicken who got bored with saying "chick chick" all day, astounds his companions with some jived-up poultry poetry: Chickery-chick cha-la cha-la, Check-a-la-romey in a ba-nan-i-ka... .Tin Pan Alley actuarians estimate that the U.S. will need about three months to get over it.
-Copyright 1945 by Santly-Joy, Inc." "
**
2.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 02:55 PM
"Under the Lilacs," Louisa May Alcott (see Joe Offer post, 26 Apr 05), was serialized in the children's "St. Nicholas Magazine." Chapter 21 with-
In China there lived a little man,
His name was Chingery Wangery Chan,-
appeared in vol. 5, no. 11, 5 Sept 1878.
This long-lived and popular children's magazine would ensure widespread disemination of the little rhyme."
3.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great man
From: GUEST,Hugh
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 05:22 PM
"I remember a song I heard at summer camp in Canada in the 60s. Unthinkable that anyone would sing it now. Clearly of the same origin as many of the other songs mentioned here, but a little different....
"Once in China lived a man
Name was Chickeracka Chee Chi Cho
Arms were long and legs were short
Chinaman could walk nor snort."
And the chorus went something like:
"Hoke chickeracka cheek chickaloro
Bongo loro piggywiggy wango
Hoko poko hit 'im in the coco
Chitterbee chatterbee chee chi cho."
For some reason it really sticks in my head over 40 years later. In fact, I found this thread because it was running through my head today, so I googled "Once in China lived a man". Weird."
**
4.
Subject: Lyr. Add: Chingery Chan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:30 PM
"Jim Dixon posted the first verse of this old Amherst song. Here is the entire song. Many versions and additions since it first appeared in the 1860's.
Lyr. Add: CHINGERY CHAN
1.
In China there lived a little man,
His name was Chingery-ri-chan-chan;
His feet were large and his head was small,
And this little man had no brains at all.
Chorus:
Chingery-rico-rico-day,
Ekel-tekel. Happy man!
Kuan-a-desco-canty-o,
Gallopy-wallopy-china-go.
2.
Miss Sky-high she was short and squat;
She had money, which he had not;
To her he then resolved to go,
And play her a tune on his little banjo.
Chorus:
3.
Miss Sky-high heard his notes of love;
She held his wash-bowl up above;
She poured it on the little man,
And that was the end of Chingery-chan.
Chorus:
Chingery-rico-rico-day,
Ekel-tekel. Injured man!
Kuan-a-desco-canty-o,
Gallopy-wallopy-china-go.
From the section on Songs of Amherst (E. C. Brayton), p.
178-179. No author cited.
H. R. Waite, Coll. and Ed., 1868, "Carmina Collegensia:
A Complete Collection of the Songs of the American Colleges, with Piano-Forte
Accompaniment. To Which Is Added a Compendium of College History." Oliver
Ditson & Co. New York:-C. H. Ditson & Co"
**
5
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:41 PM
"The song was reprinted, without change, in the enlarged "Carmina Collegensia" of 1876."
6.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great man
From: GUEST,R
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 06:47 PM
"Wow! How cool that there is a website on this! My mom was a kindergarden teacher and taught me this song back in the early 70s. I loved it and made her sing it to me over and over and now I sing it to my son...he's only 5 months...unfortunately I won't be able to sing it once he understand and can repeat the words because it has now been deemed politically incorrect, but anyway...here is the version I know:
Once there was a China man
His name was Chicka chalu Chapan
His hair was short, his teeth were long
And this is the way he walked along,
Chicka chalu chalu Chapan
Challapy Allapy, Chicka Challapy
Chicka Chalu, Chalu Chapan
Challapy Allapy China Man
Alas this poor old man he died
And in his coffin did reside
They shipped him back to old Japan
And that was the end of the China Man
Chicka chalu chalu Chapan
Challapy Allapy, Chicka Challapy
Chicka Chalu, Chalu Chapan
Challapy Allapy China Man"
7.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great man...
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:38 AM
"I do hope that "The Fish Cheer & I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die Rag" by Country Joe & the Fish has an equally long life as this politically incorrect ditty. The "Fish" song, in my opinion, has some redeeming value.
I would still hesitate to sing "Once in China there lived a man" to any general audience unless I first characterized it as an anti-Chinese song. And, yes, I can understand why it's so much fun to sing within the family but it is still a song of ethnic if not racial ridicule.
At least mull that over before passing it on to
another generation."
**
8
Subject: Origins: Once in China there lived a little man.
From: GUEST,patchouliaison
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM
"My great grandfather used to sing this song, and it's been
handed down in the family. I find it entirely racist and have asked my parents
to stop singing it to my baby. They, of course, we're horrified I would make
this request. Basically, I'm trying to prove them wrong, that it is a quite
offensive song. Any ideas on where it came from? The version we learned goes
like this:"...
-snip-
This comment continues with the words to that version of the song.
9.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man...
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM
"patchouliaison. I quite agree. I find this song racist and offensive and I woder why anyone would want to bother singing it.
Just for the record, there is a version on CD, but no, I'm not prepared to provide any details."
**
10.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 09:40 AM
"Has anybody here looked closely at the lyrics before jumping on the usual bandwagons?
I've just been looking through the original 5 verse version from c1836 and the full song is definitely about one person and in no way implies this person is in any way typical of any race, in fact quite the opposite. The song is vaguely 19th century comic and there's lots of nonsense employed particularly in the chorus. There is just one hint that it might be a proto-minstrel song. If there is any prejudice implied here might I suggest that it is one of mocking a disabled person?
However, I do agree that one wouldn't want to offend by singing the song in public simply for the reactions and false perceptions it might invoke.
In the early 19th century there were thousands of songs of a
similar nature caricaturing the Irish or a fictional Irishman. Some of these
stage songs eventually were adopted into the Irish traditional repertoire and
are still sung today by the Irish. Is it fine for the Irish to sing them but
nobody else? (A rhetorical question)"
**
11.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 04:59 PM
"This thread is a testament to what can be achieved by a forum such as Mudcat. For a researching folklorist it is a goldmine. A plethora of variants. can I just make my usual plea, if you post a version sung in your family or community can you please tell us where and when at least?
As for any racist allusions, it is worth reading Azizi's
post somewhere in the middle."
-snip-
August 16, 2023 - Here's my statement about Steve Gardham's comment mentioning me (written on August 16, 2023 and posted here on pancocojams with any attempt to re-post it on Mudcat.)
I was a very active member of Mudcat from Sept 2004 to 2011 and was somewhat less active on Mudcat between 2012 to Nov 2014 when I voluntarily withdrew my membership from that forum (by stating that to that forum). When Steve Gardham wrote his comment referring to me in 2020 I hadn’t been active on Mudcat for around five or six years. (I don't recall reading that comment until I started working on this pancocojams post on August 15,2023).
After withdrawing my membership on Mudcat, I wrote a few comments on that folk music forum in 2015 as a guest (with the name GUEST, Azizi and not with any other name). At some point in 2015 I found out that the comments that I attempted to add to Mudcat discussion threads weren't showing up on that forum (without any error message or any other statement) so I stopped trying to post any information or comments on Mudcat.
[Update: August 17, 2023- I tried and successfully added a comment to the Mudcat discussion thread https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=98174&messages=43 about changing the problematic referent "Chinese" in the song "The Crazy Baldheaded Chinese" to the word "neighbor" changing that title and line to "The Crazy Baldheaded Neighbor". That comment that I added to that Mudcat discussion thread is the same as a portion of my editorial notes that are found in this pancocojams post.
-end of August 17, 2023 Update]
The only comments that I wrote on that "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" discussion thread were three comments in 2007. Two of those comments were about how I was re-thinking my guess that the children's rhyme "Stella Ola Ola" came from Spanish sources after reading examples of the "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" song. My third post (comment) on that particular Mudcat discussion thread was welcoming a guest to Mudcat and commenting on his statement that it was weird that he remembered that "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" song after forty years.
I still periodically visit Mudcat to read discussion threads and, as this pancocojams post demonstrates, a lot pancocojams posts include content from Mudcat discussion threads.
As is the case with other members (and former members of that forum), anyone clicking on my name in any Mudcat thread would lead them to hyperlinked list of the dates and titles of all of my Mudcat comments. People can read those comments and judge for themselves whether they are racist or not.
**
12.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 11:09 PM
"This is one of our earliest threads on "Chinaman" songs. And yes, it is still a f—king* racist song. And if you are more disturbed by the word "f—king*" than by the racism of this song, then maybe your head isn't screwed on right. I included the word "f—king*" as a test.
Mudcat is often criticized for allowing the posting of songs that are considered racist. But yet, Mudcat is a Website that studies folk songs, warts and all. It is not a site for cleaning up songs - "euphemization" is more-or-less anathema here. We post songs as they were originally sung, although we may clean them up a bit when we sing them.
But a song like this is pure racism, and can't be cleaned up like "The Cat Came Back" and "I've Been Working on the Railroad" or "Shortnin' Bread." This song is racist to the core. Sometimes, people will sing songs like this to illustrate the racism of the "Good Old Days," but songs like this should never be sung for enjoyment or entertainment. Songs like this may sound cute to some, but they're not. They're f—king* racist.
If you don't like the word "f—king*," get over it. If you're a racist, get over that, too.
Take a look at the Racist Songs** threads. We do not support racism in any way, but we do our best to report it accurately. There's a difference, although it may take a certain level of intelligence to understand that.
Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor"
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.-
**This words are given as a hyperlink. Here’s that link: https://mudcat.org/threadgroup.cfm?threadgroupid=1694
Run Ni—er*** Run - Threads about racial stereotyping, offensive lyrics, coon
songs, etc.
***This word is fully spelled out in this title.
I've decided to use amended spelling on pancocojams for the n word and for profanity because I'm aware that most public schools in the USA prohibit content with those words completely spelled out and I want to increase the possibilities of pancocojams being used as a supplement in those schools.
****
B. https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=98174
1.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:52 PM
"I am sick and tired of all this "Chinaman" crap.
It is all racist drivel.
OK, I get it: you all thought it was "cute" when you learned it. And you are nostalgic for the days when you didn't know any better.
Well, now you do know better. Or you ought to.
It is no longer cute. It is disgusting.
I propose all these "Chinaman" threads be closed immediately.
We already have more versions than anybody could possibly have the patience to read.
Give it a rest. Permanently."
**
2.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:54 PM
"Well, Jim, the message previous to yours has two verses not posted before. This thread has only 18 posts, so we really haven't exhausted the song. I'll admit that songs like this make me cringe, but I think they're the most recent true examples of the folk process, since they're not apt to be affected by publishing. Not many books are going to publish songs like this. Lingenfelter and Dwyer Songs of the West has a number of "Chinaman" songs, but that's about the only printed source I can think of. I share your disgust with this type of song, but I think it's essential to preserve them and worthwhile to see how many versions have developed.
I don't think people have done THIS song to death, but I
can't figure out why so many people have posted to the Once in China thread.
That thread has 218 posts, and has been going since 1998."
**
3.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,betty
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM
"My mom taught it to me as a kid in the 90s.
My mother she told me to open the door
but I didn't wanna
I opened the door, he fell on the floor
the bald headed man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his coat
but I didn't wanna
took off his coat, he smelled like a goat
the bald head man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his hat
but I didn't wanna
I took off his hat, he looked like a rat
the bald head man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his shoes
but I didn't wanna
I took off his shoes, he sang the blues
the bald head man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his pants
but I didn't wanna
I took off his pants, he started to dance
the bald head man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his shirt
but I didn't wanna
I took off his shirt, he fell in the dirt
the bald head man from China
That's all I remember. I always wondered why my mom (born in
the 60s) told me to undress a bald head man from China who showed up at my door"
4.
From: GUEST,Pam A
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:12 PM
"My grandfather taught me this song back in the late 40's
(it was Crazy Baldheaded Chinese). I would sing it at bedtime and it drove my
parents nuts because I had to sing every verse I knew. Would take forever for
me to finish - thus prolonging my bedtime. Great memory."
**
5.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,Pam A
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:23 PM
"Does anyone remember the tune? Did it have it's own or was it from something else?
Looking back at some of the earlier posts - I serioulsy
doubt that there was any intent to insult anyone with this song. No more so
than say - This Little Piggy, etc. Children's songs don't have to do anything
else but entertain. Young children have no bias. They only learn about bias
from the adults and older children around them. Can't they just be silly
without everyone worrying about offending someone or something?"...
**
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,BRoman
Date: 27 May 13 - 11:28 PM
"My grandmother sang this to me when I was a child. Our version is a little different, but as Ive been reading everyone seems to have different verses. To whom ever ridiculously blew their top over a children's song well it's stupid. Im sorry, but when I heard it as a child and even now to this day when I sing it to my children I do not think of it as racist nor do my children. It was a funny song that I remember growing up. Get over yourself. To everyone else thanks for the other versions I have thoroughly enjoyed reading and knowing that other people have had the pleasure of enjoying it as well."
7.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 May 13 - 10:17 PM
"I stand by my previous remarks."
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,Crazy old woman from china
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:09 PM
"Lol Jim Dixon calm the f—k* down
its assholes like you who vote yes to ban soda
racism exists
it always has
and always will
as a child however who sang this
I was not racist - I was a f—king* kid enjoying a funny song"
-snip-
*These words are fully spelled out in this comment.
**
9.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,It's Just For Fun, That's All
Date: 27 May 17 - 11:27 AM
"Jim Dixon told me to close this thread,
But I didn't wanna.
I closed the thread, he filled me with lead,
The P.C. man from China."
10.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 27 May 17 - 12:46 PM
"I think Patrick Sky should have included this song in his Songs That Made America Famous album, it would fit perfectly.
I'm so sick of all these Chinaman sh-t* that I actually
enjoy its sickness. Could drive my fellow Chinamen nuts."
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.
**
11.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:06 PM
"I heard this song performed in concert, probably in the 1980s, as "The Dirty Old Man from Fresno." (The performer had changed it to remove the anti-Chinese slur, which I fully approved of. It doesn't really matter to the song where the old man came from--it just needs two syllables. I kind of like the idea of replacing the placename with "Nowhere.") The performer also sang the English folksong it descended from, which I remember as "Old Shoes and Leggings." "
****
I'm aware that for some people "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" and "The Crazy Baldheaded Chinese" are nostalgic songs, but they are also anti-Chinese songs.
I believe that songs like "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" and The Crazy Baldheaded Chinese" and/or songs like it shouldn't be taught in schools for entertainment or recreational purposes. However, I believe that "The Crazy Baldheaded Chinese" and songs/rhymes like it (such as "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" should be presented as supplements to teaching about racism in the United States and elsewhere, and specifically about anti-Chinese actions, laws, and attitudes in the United States and elsewhere.
I therefore recommend replacing the words China and Chinese in those songs with another word.
An anonymous commenter wrote in 2018 on the Mudcat folk music forum wrote that "I heard this song performed in concert, probably in the 1980s, as "The Dirty Old Man from Fresno." (The performer had changed it to remove the anti-Chinese slur, which I fully approved of. It doesn't really matter to the song where the old man came from--it just needs two syllables."...
That commenter also reminded people that the song "Old Shoes And Leggings" is probably the source song for "The Crazy Baldheaded Chinese" ("The Crazy Man From China").
I'll add that that the song "Old Shoes And Leggings" is a Scottish song that dates from the 18th century. That song ridicules old men who are trying to court young women. The song "Old Shoes And Leggings" doesn't include the word "China" or "Chinese" and doesn't have any other racial, ethnic, or nationality references.
Corresponding to my 1950s childhood memories of this song, people would sing:
"My mother she told me to open the door
The little baldheaded neighbor bor bor
I opened the door. He fell on the floor
The little baldheaded neighbor bor bor"
-snip-
Or people could sing:
My mother she told me to open the door
But I didn't wanna
My crazy baldheaded neighbor.
-snip-
I believe that the word "neighbor" works pretty well as a replacement for the problematic word "Chinese" in that song because 1. the two syllable word "neighbor" isn't offensive and 2. the word 'neighbor" somewhat explains why the mother told her child to open the door for that man who ended up doing those crazy things.
People replaced "the n word" in the "Eeny Meenie Miney Mo" counting out rhyme so successfully that few people even remember that derogatory term used to be a part of that rhyme. So substituting another word for an offensive word can be done if people choose to do it.
For example, here's an excerpt of the lyrics of one version of "Once In China There Lived A Great Man":
From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUOfIdQ45Ck "Grammy: Chickety-Chickety Chan"
published by dinosaursareradical, Jun 12, 2012
"In Chinatown there lived a man
His name was Chickety-Chickety Chan
His feet were long and his toes were short
And this is the way the poor Chinamen talked
CHORUS:
Ooooh, chickety-chee chi-ly chi-lo
chickety-rummo inna-banana-wallya
wallya chi-na-key
inna-banana-ga-watchio"
-snip-
If the lyrics to these anti-Chinese songs were revised (cleaned up) and their racist versions weren't studied in schools/universities then some "history deniers" could claim that any anti-Chinese history ever happened in the USA and elsewhere.
For the record (no pun intended), the tune that my sisters and I used for what we called "The Little Baldheaded Chinese" song closely fits the "Blow The Man Down" shanty (not that we knew that shanty when we were 7, 6, and 5 years old).
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