"My great grandfather used to sing this song, and it's been
handed down in the family. I find it entirely racist and have asked my parents
to stop singing it to my baby. They, of course, we're horrified I would make
this request. Basically, I'm trying to prove them wrong, that it is a quite
offensive song. Any ideas on where it came from? The version we learned goes
like this:"...
-snip-
This comment continues with the words to that version of the song.
**
9.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man...
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM
"patchouliaison. I quite agree. I find this song racist and
offensive and I woder why anyone would want to bother singing it.
Just for the record, there is a version on CD, but no, I'm
not prepared to provide any details."
**
10.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 09:40 AM
"Has anybody here looked closely at the lyrics before jumping
on the usual bandwagons?
I've just been looking through the original 5 verse version
from c1836 and the full song is definitely about one person and in no way
implies this person is in any way typical of any race, in fact quite the
opposite. The song is vaguely 19th century comic and there's lots of nonsense
employed particularly in the chorus. There is just one hint that it might be a
proto-minstrel song. If there is any prejudice implied here might I suggest
that it is one of mocking a disabled person?
However, I do agree that one wouldn't want to offend by
singing the song in public simply for the reactions and false perceptions it
might invoke.
In the early 19th century there were thousands of songs of a
similar nature caricaturing the Irish or a fictional Irishman. Some of these
stage songs eventually were adopted into the Irish traditional repertoire and
are still sung today by the Irish. Is it fine for the Irish to sing them but
nobody else? (A rhetorical question)"
**
11.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 04:59 PM
"This thread is a testament to what can be achieved by a
forum such as Mudcat. For a researching folklorist it is a goldmine. A plethora
of variants. can I just make my usual plea, if you post a version sung in your
family or community can you please tell us where and when at least?
As for any racist allusions, it is worth reading Azizi's
post somewhere in the middle."
-snip-
August 16, 2023 - Here's my statement about Steve Gardham's comment mentioning me (written on August 16, 2023 and posted here on pancocojams with any attempt to re-post it on Mudcat.)
I was a very active member of Mudcat from Sept 2004 to 2011 and was somewhat less active on Mudcat between 2012 to Nov 2014 when I voluntarily withdrew my membership from that forum (by stating that to that forum). When Steve Gardham wrote his comment referring to me in 2020 I hadn’t been active on Mudcat for around five or six years. (I don't recall reading that comment until I started working on this pancocojams post on August 15,2023).
After withdrawing my membership on Mudcat, I wrote a few comments on that folk music forum in 2015 as a guest (with the name GUEST, Azizi and not with any other name). At some point in 2015 I found out that the comments that I attempted to add to Mudcat discussion threads weren't showing up on that forum (without any error message or any other statement) so I stopped trying to post any information or comments on Mudcat.
[Update: August 17, 2023- I tried and successfully added a comment to the Mudcat discussion thread https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=98174&messages=43 about changing the problematic referent "Chinese" in the song "The Crazy Baldheaded Chinese" to the word "neighbor" changing that title and line to "The Crazy Baldheaded Neighbor". That comment that I added to that Mudcat discussion thread is the same as a portion of my editorial notes that are found in this pancocojams post.
-end of August 17, 2023 Update]
The only comments that I wrote on that "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" discussion thread were three comments in 2007. Two of those comments were about how I was re-thinking my guess that the children's rhyme "Stella Ola Ola" came from Spanish sources after reading examples of the "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" song. My third post (comment) on that particular Mudcat discussion thread was welcoming a guest to Mudcat and commenting on his statement that it was weird that he remembered that "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" song after forty years.
I still periodically visit Mudcat to read discussion threads and, as this pancocojams post demonstrates, a lot pancocojams posts include content from Mudcat discussion threads.
I'm not sure what Steve Gardham's comment about me means. My guess is that his comment means that he thinks that a lot of my Mudcat posts were racist. I definitely don't agree with that.
As is the case with other members (and former members of that forum), anyone clicking on my name in any Mudcat thread would lead them to hyperlinked list of the dates and titles of all of my Mudcat comments. People can read those comments and judge for themselves whether they are racist or not.
**
12.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great
man...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 11:09 PM
"This is one of our earliest threads on "Chinaman"
songs. And yes, it is still a f—king* racist song. And if you are more
disturbed by the word "f—king*" than by the racism of this song, then
maybe your head isn't screwed on right. I included the word "f—king*"
as a test.
Mudcat is often criticized for allowing the posting of songs
that are considered racist. But yet, Mudcat is a Website that studies folk
songs, warts and all. It is not a site for cleaning up songs -
"euphemization" is more-or-less anathema here. We post songs as they
were originally sung, although we may clean them up a bit when we sing them.
But a song like this is pure racism, and can't be cleaned up
like "The Cat Came Back" and "I've Been Working on the
Railroad" or "Shortnin' Bread." This song is racist to the core.
Sometimes, people will sing songs like this to illustrate the racism of the
"Good Old Days," but songs like this should never be sung for
enjoyment or entertainment. Songs like this may sound cute to some, but they're
not. They're f—king* racist.
If you don't like the word "f—king*," get over it.
If you're a racist, get over that, too.
Take a look at the Racist Songs** threads. We do not support
racism in any way, but we do our best to report it accurately. There's a
difference, although it may take a certain level of intelligence to understand
that.
Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor"
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.-
**This words are given as a hyperlink. Here’s that link: https://mudcat.org/threadgroup.cfm?threadgroupid=1694
Run Ni—er*** Run - Threads about racial stereotyping, offensive lyrics, coon
songs, etc.
***This word is fully spelled out in this title.
I've decided to use amended spelling on pancocojams for the n word and for profanity because I'm aware that most public schools in the USA prohibit content with those words completely spelled out and I want to increase the possibilities of pancocojams being used as a supplement in those schools.
****
B. https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=98174
1.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:52 PM
"I am sick and tired of all this "Chinaman" crap.
It is all racist drivel.
OK, I get it: you all thought it was "cute" when
you learned it. And you are nostalgic for the days when you didn't know any
better.
Well, now you do know better. Or you ought to.
It is no longer cute. It is disgusting.
I propose all these "Chinaman" threads be closed
immediately.
We already have more versions than anybody could possibly have
the patience to read.
Give it a rest. Permanently."
**
2.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:54 PM
"Well, Jim, the message previous to yours has two verses not
posted before. This thread has only 18 posts, so we really haven't exhausted
the song. I'll admit that songs like this make me cringe, but I think they're
the most recent true examples of the folk process, since they're not apt to be
affected by publishing. Not many books are going to publish songs like this. Lingenfelter
and Dwyer Songs of the West has a number of "Chinaman" songs, but
that's about the only printed source I can think of. I share your disgust with
this type of song, but I think it's essential to preserve them and worthwhile
to see how many versions have developed.
I don't think people have done THIS song to death, but I
can't figure out why so many people have posted to the Once in China thread.
That thread has 218 posts, and has been going since 1998."
**
3.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,betty
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM
"My mom taught it to me as a kid in the 90s.
My mother she told me to open the door
but I didn't wanna
I opened the door, he fell on the floor
the bald headed man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his coat
but I didn't wanna
took off his coat, he smelled like a goat
the bald head man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his hat
but I didn't wanna
I took off his hat, he looked like a rat
the bald head man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his shoes
but I didn't wanna
I took off his shoes, he sang the blues
the bald head man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his pants
but I didn't wanna
I took off his pants, he started to dance
the bald head man from China
My mother, she told me to take off his shirt
but I didn't wanna
I took off his shirt, he fell in the dirt
the bald head man from China
That's all I remember. I always wondered why my mom (born in
the 60s) told me to undress a bald head man from China who showed up at my door"
**
4.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,Pam A
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:12 PM
"My grandfather taught me this song back in the late 40's
(it was Crazy Baldheaded Chinese). I would sing it at bedtime and it drove my
parents nuts because I had to sing every verse I knew. Would take forever for
me to finish - thus prolonging my bedtime. Great memory."
**
5.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,Pam A
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:23 PM
"Does anyone remember the tune? Did it have it's own or was
it from something else?
Looking back at some of the earlier posts - I serioulsy
doubt that there was any intent to insult anyone with this song. No more so
than say - This Little Piggy, etc. Children's songs don't have to do anything
else but entertain. Young children have no bias. They only learn about bias
from the adults and older children around them. Can't they just be silly
without everyone worrying about offending someone or something?"...
**
6.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,BRoman
Date: 27 May 13 - 11:28 PM
"My grandmother sang this to me when I was a child. Our
version is a little different, but as Ive been reading everyone seems to have
different verses. To whom ever ridiculously blew their top over a children's
song well it's stupid. Im sorry, but when I heard it as a child and even now to
this day when I sing it to my children I do not think of it as racist nor do my
children. It was a funny song that I remember growing up. Get over yourself. To
everyone else thanks for the other versions I have thoroughly enjoyed reading
and knowing that other people have had the pleasure of enjoying it as well."
**
7.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 May 13 - 10:17 PM
"I stand by my previous remarks."
**
8.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,Crazy old woman from china
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:09 PM
"Lol Jim Dixon calm the f—k* down
its assholes like you who vote yes to ban soda
racism exists
it always has
and always will
as a child however who sang this
I was not racist - I was a f—king* kid enjoying a funny song"
-snip-
*These words are fully spelled out in this comment.
**
9.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,It's Just For Fun, That's All
Date: 27 May 17 - 11:27 AM
"Jim Dixon told me to close this thread,
But I didn't wanna.
I closed the thread, he filled me with lead,
The P.C. man from China."
**
10.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 27 May 17 - 12:46 PM
"I think Patrick Sky should have included this song in his Songs
That Made America Famous album, it would fit perfectly.
I'm so sick of all these Chinaman sh-t* that I actually
enjoy its sickness. Could drive my fellow Chinamen nuts."
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.
**
11.
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Crazy Old Man From China
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:06 PM
"I heard this song performed in concert, probably in the
1980s, as "The Dirty Old Man from Fresno." (The performer had changed
it to remove the anti-Chinese slur, which I fully approved of. It doesn't
really matter to the song where the old man came from--it just needs two
syllables. I kind of like the idea of replacing the placename with
"Nowhere.") The performer also sang the English folksong it descended
from, which I remember as "Old Shoes and Leggings." "
****