Jazz Song "Four Or Five Times" by McKinney's Cotton Pickers (1928) and by Sister Rosetta Tharpe with Lucky Millinder & His Orchestra.(1941)

dited by Azizi Powell

This pancocojams post presents a YouTube example of the Jazz song "Four Or Five Times" (also given as "Four Five Times") by McKinney's Cotton Pickers and by Sister Rosetta Tharpe with Lucky Millinder and his Orchestra.

The lyrics for these examples are included in this post along with information about these performers and selected comments from these examples' discussion threads.

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The content of this post is presented for cultural, entertainment, and aesthetic purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to McKinney's Cotton Pickers and Sister Rosetta Tharpe for their musical legacies. Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post and thanks to the publishers of these examples on YouTube.

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SHOWCASE EXAMPLE #1: McKinney's Cotton Pickers- Four Five Times



Richard L., Published on Dec 29, 2010
-snip-
The McKinney's Cotton Pickers' version of "Four Five Times" is the first recorded example of the Jazz scatting words "Bebop".

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INFORMATION ABOUT MCKINNEY'S COTTON PICKERS
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinney%27s_Cotton_Pickers
"McKinney's Cotton Pickers were an African American jazz band, in Detroit, Michigan, United States, in 1926 by William McKinney, who expanded his Synco Septet to ten pieces. Cuba Austin took over for McKinney early on drums. Between 1927 and 1931, they were one of the most popular African-American bands. Many of their records for Victor were bestsellers.

In 1927, Fletcher Henderson's arranger and saxophone player Don Redman was invited to become the Cotton Pickers' musical director,[1] and he assembled a band which rivalled Henderson's and Duke Ellington's.[citation needed] Aiding Redman with arrangements and rehearsals with the band was the talented trumpeter-arranger John Nesbitt. The line-up in 1928 was Cuba Austin (drums and vocals), Prince Robinson (clarinet, tenor saxophone), George Thomas (clarinet, alto saxophone, tenor saxophone, vocals; Redman (arranger, clarinet, alto saxophone, baritone saxophone, vocals, and leader), Dave Wilborn (banjo, vocals), Todd Rhodes (piano, celeste), Ralph Escudero (tuba), Nesbitt, Claude Jones (trombone), Milton Senior, Langston Curl (trumpet).[2]"...

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LYRICS: FOUR FIVE TIMES (as sung by McKinney's Cotton Pickers)
(Composed by Byron Gay / Marco H. Hellman with the title "Four Or Five Times")

[Scatting]
I'm never a flop
[Scatting]
I started on top
[Scatting]
Just keep strolling, keep the ball a-rolling
[Scatting]
This isn't a boast
[Scatting]
But what I like most
[Scatting]
Is to have someone who is true
Who will love me, too!
Four or five times
Four or five times
There is delight
To doing things right
Four or five times
Four or five times!
Maybe I'll sigh
Maybe I'll cry
And if I die
I'm gonna try
Four or five times
Six or seven times!
We like to play
We like to swing
We like to go
Ski-dat-a-dat doh
Four or five times
Four or five times!
Bip-bop one
Bip-bop two
Bip-bop three
Ski-adda-dadda-dee
Four or five times
Four or five times!
[Scatting]
Wow!
[Scatting]
Yes! Sure! Okay!
[Scatting]
What? Yeah!
Four or five times
Four or five times
There is delight
To doing things right
Four or five times
Four or five times!

Source: https://genius.com/Mckinneys-cotton-pickers-four-or-five-times-lyrics

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SELECTED COMMENTS FROM THE YOUTUBE DISCUSSION THREAD FOR THIS EMBEDDED SOUND FILE OF MCKINNEY'S COTTON PICKERS
(numbers added for referencing purposes only)
1. Barry I. Grauman, 2011
"This was recorded on July 11, 1928, and was one of the first McKinney recordings under the baton of Don Redman (who arranged this as well). Don, George Thomas {lead vocalist}, and Dave Wilborn are the vocal trio. The folllowing day, Redman and the Cotton Pickers recorded the definitive version of his jazz classic, "Cherry" [using a similar arrangement]."

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2. Mistermaarten150, 2016
"Absolutely lovely... the term 'bebop' by the way was first used in the scat singing in this song, for example after 0:40"

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Example #2: Sister Rosetta Tharpe ca. 1941 "Four Or Five Times"



harryoakley, Published on Mar 31, 2009

Early footage of Sister Rosetta Tharpe when she was band vocalist with Lucky Millinder and his Orchestra.
-snip-
This video includes footage of African Americans performing jazz (swing) dancing.

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LYRICS: FOUR OR FIVE TIMES (as sung by Sister Rosetta Tharpe with Lucky Millinder and his Orchestra)
(Composed by Byron Gay / Marco H. Hellman with the title "Four Or Five Times")

Four or five times
Four or five times
It's my delight
Doing things right
Four or five times

Now, maybe I'll sigh
And maybe I'll cry
But if I die
I'm gonna try to do it
Four or five times

I said four or five times
(Four or five times)
Ah, four or five times
(Four or five times)
Now he's my king
He makes me sing
Four or five times
(Yes indeed)

I confess
(I confess)
He is the best
(He is the best)
That's the test
That kills that myth
Four or five times

(Four or five times)
Four or five times
(Four or five times)
Oh, four or five times
You find a guy
That sets the world on fire
Four or five times
(Now you're talkin', Sister)

Now maybe I'm wrong
(Maybe I'm wrong)
Then maybe I'm right
(Maybe I'm right)
But right or wrong
I'm gonna swing this song
Four or five

I said four or five times
Oh, four or five times
It's my delight
Doing things right
Four or five times

Now maybe I'll sigh
Then maybe I'll cry
But if I die
I'm gonna try to do it
Four or five times

One, two, three, four
Ah, four or five times

Source: http://lyrics.wikia.com/wiki/Sister_Rosetta_Tharpe:Four_Or_Five_Times

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INFORMATION ABOUT LUCKY MILLINDER AND HIS ORCHESTRA
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Millinder
"Lucius Venable "Lucky" Millinder (August 8, 1910[1][2] – September 28, 1966)[3] was an African American rhythm-and-blues and swing bandleader. Although he could not read or write music, did not play an instrument and rarely sang, his showmanship and musical taste made his bands successful. His group was said to have been the greatest big band to play rhythm and blues,[4] and gave work to a number of musicians who later became influential at the dawn of the rock and roll era. He was inducted into the Alabama Jazz Hall of Fame in 1986.

Early career
Millinder was born Lucius Venables in Anniston, Alabama. He took the surname Millinder as a child,[1] and was raised in Chicago. In the 1920s he worked in clubs, ballrooms, and theatres in Chicago as a master of ceremonies and dancer. He first fronted a band in 1931 for an RKO theater tour, and in 1932 took over the leadership of Doc Crawford's orchestra in Harlem. He also freelanced elsewhere.

In 1933, he took a band to Europe, playing residencies in Monte Carlo and Paris. He returned to New York to take over the leadership of the Mills Blue Rhythm Band, which included Henry "Red" Allen, Charlie Shavers, Harry "Sweets" Edison and J. C. Higginbotham, and which had a regular slot at The Cotton Club.

In 1938 he teamed-up with pianist Bill Doggett to front Doggett's group. By 1940 had formed a completely new orchestra, which included Doggett and the drummer "Panama" Francis. Around this time he discovered the established gospel singer and guitarist Rosetta Tharpe, with whom his ensembles performed for many years and first recorded with on four cuts for Decca in 1938.

He established a residency at New York's Savoy Ballroom and won a contract with Decca Records. Dizzy Gillespie was the band's trumpeter for a while and was featured on Millinder's first charting hit, "When the Lights Go On Again (All Over the World)", which reached number 1 on the R&B chart and number 14 on the pop chart in 1942. The follow-up records "Apollo Jump" and "Sweet Slumber" were also big hits, with vocals by Trevor Bacon.

By the mid-1940s the band was drifting towards what came to be known as rhythm and blues."...

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INFORMATION ABOUT SISTER ROSETTA THARPE
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Rosetta_Tharpe
"Sister Rosetta Tharpe (March 20, 1915 – October 9, 1973) was an American singer, songwriter, guitarist, and recording artist. As a pioneer of mid-20th-century music, she attained popularity in the 1930s and 1940s with her gospel recordings, characterized by a unique mixture of spiritual lyrics and rhythmic accompaniment that was a precursor of rock and roll. She was the first great recording star of gospel music and among the first gospel musicians to appeal to rhythm-and-blues and rock-and-roll audiences, later being referred to as "the original soul sister" and "the Godmother of rock and roll".[1][3][4][5][6] She influenced early rock-and-roll musicians, including Little Richard, Johnny Cash, Carl Perkins, Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley and Jerry Lee Lewis.[7][8][9]

Tharpe was a pioneer in her guitar technique; she was among the first popular recording artists to use heavy distortion on her electric guitar, presaging the rise of electric blues. Her guitar playing technique had a profound influence on the development of British blues in the 1960s; in particular a European tour with Muddy Waters in 1963 with a stop in Manchester is cited by prominent British guitarists such as Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, and Keith Richards.[10]

Willing to cross the line between sacred and secular by performing her music of "light" in the "darkness" of nightclubs and concert halls with big bands behind her, Tharpe pushed spiritual music into the mainstream and helped pioneer the rise of pop-gospel, beginning in 1938 with the recording "Rock Me" and with her 1939 hit "This Train".[11][1] Her unique music left a lasting mark on more conventional gospel artists such as Ira Tucker, Sr., of the Dixie Hummingbirds. While she offended some conservative churchgoers with her forays into the pop world, she never left gospel music.

Tharpe's 1944 release "Down by the Riverside" was selected for the National Recording Registry of the U.S. Library of Congress in 2004, which noted that it "captures her spirited guitar playing and unique vocal style, demonstrating clearly her influence on early rhythm-and-blues performers" and cited her influence on "many gospel, jazz, and rock artists".[12] ("Down by the Riverside" was recorded by Tharpe on December 2, 1948, in New York City, and issued as Decca single 48106.[13]). Her 1945 hit "Strange Things Happening Every Day", recorded in late 1944, featured Tharpe's vocals and electric guitar, with Sammy Price (piano), bass and drums. It was the first gospel record to cross over, hitting no. 2 on the Billboard "race records" chart, the term then used for what later became the R&B chart, in April 1945.[14][15] The recording has been cited as precursor of rock and roll.[8] On December 13, 2017, Tharpe was chosen for induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as an Early Influence."..

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SELECTED COMMENTS FROM THE YOUTUBE DISCUSSION THREAD FOR THIS EMBEDDED VIDEO OF SISTER ROSETTA THARPE AND LUCKY MILLINDER & HIS ORCHESTRA
(numbers added for referencing purposes only)
1. Anders Åborg, 2009
"Wonderful! I love SRT and I check her carrier out.. Where did you find this?..."

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REPLY
2. harryoakley, 2009
"I "found" it in my 16mm jazzfilm collection!"

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3. chrisb1953, 2010
"She can play a pretty mean guitar also - check out "Up Above My Head". Billy Gibbons from ZZ Top was no doubt inspired."

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4. Nostalgico80, 2011
"Where's Sister Rosetta's guitar solo :( ?"

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5. britainluver431, 2012
"She was in her twenties or thirties when this was filmed."

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6. stars2luv, 2012
"Is this a gospel song??"

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REPLY
7. Joseph Scott, 2017
"No, it's a comedy song about sex, written by Byron Gay and Marco Hellman. Tharpe didn't quit singing secular songs until a few years later."

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Sister Rosetta Tharpe - "This Train (Is Bound For Glory)" information, video, & lyrics

Edited by Azizi Powell

Latest Revision - Oct. 2, 2022

This pancocojams post presents information about the Spiritual or Early Black Gospel song "This Train (Is Bound For Glory)".

This post also provides information about Sister Rosetta Tharpe and showcases a video of Sister Rosetta Tharpe and band performing the Gospel song "This Train (Is Bound For Glory).

The content of this post is presented for cultural, religious, and aesthetic purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to Sister Rosetta Tharpe for her musical legacy and thanks to all the musicians that are featured in this video. Thanks also to all those who are quoted in this post and thanks to the publisher of this video on YouTube.

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INFORMATION ABOUT THE SONG "THIS TRAIN (IS BOUND FOR GLORY)

Excerpt #1
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Train
" "This Train", also known as "This Train Is Bound for Glory", is a traditional American gospel song first recorded in 1922. Although its origins are unknown, the song was relatively popular during the 1920s as a religious tune, and it became a gospel hit in the late 1930s for singer-guitarist Sister Rosetta Tharpe.[1] After switching from acoustic to electric guitar, Tharpe released a more secular version of the song in the early 1950s.

The song's popularity was also due in part to the influence of folklorists John A. Lomax and Alan Lomax, who discovered the song while making field recordings in the American South in the early 1930s and included it in folk song anthologies that were published in 1934 and 1960. These anthologies brought the song to the attention of an even broader audience during the folk music revival of the 1950s and 1960s.[2] Another song, called "The Crawdad Song", uses the same melody.

Early history

The earliest known example of "This Train" is a recording by Florida Normal and Industrial Institute Quartette from 1922, under the title "Dis Train".[3] Another one of the earliest recordings of the song is the version made by Wood's Blind Jubilee Singers in August 1925 under the title "This Train Is Bound for Glory". Between 1926 and 1931, three other black religious groups recorded it. During a visit to the Parchman Farm state penitentiary in Mississippi in 1933, Smithsonian Institution musicologist John A. Lomax and his son Alan made a field recording of the song by black inmate Walter McDonald. The next year the song found its way into print for the first time in the Lomaxes' American Folk Songs and Ballads anthology and was subsequently included in Alan Lomax's 1960 anthology Folk Songs of North America.[2]

In 1935, the first hillbilly recording of the song was released by Tennessee Ramblers as "Dis Train" in reference to the song's black roots.[2] Then in the late 1930s, after becoming the first black artist to sign with a major label, gospel singer and guitarist Sister Rosetta Tharpe recorded "This Train" as a hit for Decca. Her later version of the song, released by Decca in the early 1950s, featured Tharpe on electric guitar.

In 1955, the song, with altered lyrics, became a popular single for blues singer-harmonica player Little Walter Jacobs as "My Babe". This secular adaptation has since become a rock standard recorded by many artists, including Dale Hawkins, Bo Diddley, Cliff Richard (three times), and the Remains.”…

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Excerpt #2
From http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=160108
Subject: DTStudy: This Train (is bound for glory)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:14 PM
...."here is the entry from the Traditional Ballad Index:
This Train

DESCRIPTION: "This train is bound for glory... If you ride it, you must be holy." "This train don't pull no gamblers..." (And so forth, through various sinners the train doesn't pull.) "This train don't pull no extras... Don't pull nothin' but the Heavenly Special."
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1922 (recording, Florida Normal Industrial Institute Quartet)

....RECORDINGS:
Biddleville Quintette, "This Train is Bound for Blory" (Paramount 12448, 1927)
Big Bill Broonzy, "This Train" (on Broonzy01)
Florida Normal Industrial Institute Quartet, "Dis Train" (OKeh 40010, 1924; rec. 1922)
Garland Jubilee Singers [pseud. for Bryant's Jubilee Quartet] "This Train" (Banner 32267/Oriole 8098/Romeo 5098, all 1931/Perfect 190, 1932; on RoughWays2)
Lulu Belle & Scotty, "This Train" (OKeh 04910, 1939)
S. E. Mullis Blue Diamond Quartet, "Dis Train" (Champion 16424, 1932)
Southern Plantation Singers, "This Train is Bound for Glory" (Vocalion 1250, 1929; rec. 1928)
Sister Rosetta Tharpe, "This Train" (Decca 2558, 1939) (Down Beat 104 [as Sister Katty Marie], n.d.)

NOTES: Cohen observes that there are two basic forms of this song, the "This Train" version in the description and a type he calls "Same Train": "Same train carry my mother, same train (x2). Same train carry my mother, Same train be back tomorrow, same train."

There isn't much different in age, but Cohen argues that "Same Train" is older because it is much less interesting. I would say he is almost certainly right."...

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From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:23 AM
"FWIW because of his Autobiography, people, understandably, assume Woodie Guthrie wrote it. I have seen a statement by him somewhere to the effect he was putting the record straight. He regarded the song as trad."
-snip-

 "trad" = "traditional", meaning an old song whose composer is unknown
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INFORMATION ABOUT SISTER ROSETTA THARP
From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6L5grLqkA0
"Sister Rosetta Tharpe (March 20, 1915 – October 9, 1973) was an American singer, songwriter, guitarist and recording artist. A pioneer of mid-20th-century music, she attained popularity in the 1930s and 1940s with her gospel recordings, characterized by a unique mixture of spiritual lyrics and rhythmic acompaniment that was a precursor of rock and roll. She was the first great recording star of gospel music and among the first gospel musicians to appeal to rhythm-and-blues and rock-and-roll audiences, later being referred to as "the original soul sister" and "the godmother of rock and roll".[1][3][4][5][6] She influenced early rock-and-roll musicians, including Little Richard, Johnny Cash, Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley and Jerry Lee Lewis.[5][7][8]

Willing to cross the line between sacred and secular by performing her music of "light" in the "darkness" of nightclubs and concert halls with big bands behind her, Tharpe pushed spiritual music into the mainstream and helped pioneer the rise of pop-gospel, beginning with her 1939 hit "This Train".[1] Her unique music left a lasting mark on more conventional gospel artists, such as Ira Tucker, Sr., of the Dixie Hummingbirds. While she offended some conservative churchgoers with her forays into the pop world, she never left gospel music."...
-snip-
This excerpt is reformatted for this post for greater reading clarity.

That folk music forum discussion thread contains additional text (lyric only) examples and additional comments about this religious song."

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SHOWCASE VIDEO: Sister Rosetta Tharpe / "This Train (is bound for Glory)" - (live performance)



Enzo Gianvittorio, Published on Jul 11, 2014

This train is a clean train, this train
This train is a clean train, this train
This train is a clean train, everybody's riding in Jesus' name
This train is a clean train, this train.

This train is bound for Glory, this train
This train is bound for Glory, you know this train
This train is bound for Glory,
Everybody riding here got to be holy
'Cause this train is a clean train, This train

But this train, don't pull no lairs, this train
you got to get off. This train, don't pull no lairs,
no false pretenders, and not bad b..
because this train is a clean train
This Train !

But this train, don't pull no wankers
I said this train don't pull no wankers, this train
no no no no no don't pull no wankers,
no crap shooters and no whiskies drinkers...
It's a clean train
This Train !

You know, this train don't pull no jokers, this train
This train don't pull no jokers, ah ah this train
Hey, this train don't pull no jokers,
no tobacco chewers and no cigar smokers
'Cause this train is a clean train, I said this train.

This train is on the way to Glory, this train.
Yeah this train, is on the way to Glory, ohhh this train.
You know this train is on the way to Glory
everybody riding it it got to be holly holly
'Cause this train is a clean train,
This Train !
-snip-
Here are two comments from that video's discussion thread:
Mrs. Cardenas, 2015
"Lovely! Good'ol music, where are u this days!😕😭😭😭 It's a beautify, soulful song"

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jchbsurf, 2015
"Not so well remembered any longer but Ms Tharpe was a monster talent."
-snip-
Describing a person as being "a monster talent" means that that person is (was) exceptionally talented (has/had super human talent). This is a positive description and is the same as saying that the person is "a beast".

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