Edited by Azizi Powell
This is Part III of a three part pancocojams series on the popular catchphrases "See You Later. alligator and its usual response "After while, crocodile".
Part III of this pancocojams series includes my editorial comments and some article excerpts that I believe corroborate my position that the sayings "See you later, alligator", and "Afterwhile, crocodile" originated from and were first popularized by Black Americans.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2021/03/two-records-of-see-you-later-alligator.html for Part I of this pancocojams series. Part I showcases two YouTube examples of this song. The first example is a sound file by Bobby Charles, that song's composer and the second is a YouTube video of Bill Hailey & The Comets performing the most popular cover recording of that song.
Information about Bobby Charles and information about Bill Hailey & The Comets are included in Part I along with the lyrics for the song "See You Later Alligator".
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2021/03/two-excerpts-from-online-article-and.html for Part II of this pancocojams series. Part II presents an excerpt of the 2020 article ‘See You Later Alligator ' Originated In U.S. Teenagers' Slang" by Pascal Tréguer and an excerpt of a 2012 National Public Radio (NPR) transcript of a "Fresh Air" segment about Bobby Charles, the composer of the song "See You Later, Alligator".
The content of this post is presented for cultural and linguistic purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
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SOME PANCOCOJAMS EDITOR'S COMMENTS (WITH SOME ONLINE EXCERPTS)
These comments are presented as a series of thoughts and article excerpts that are separated by asterisks.
In Part II of this pancocojams series, I quoted Pascal Tréguer's 2020 article ‘See You Later Alligator Originated In U.S. Teenager's Slang"
From https://wordhistories.net/2017/12/29/see-later-alligator/#:~:text=The%20colloquial%20see%20you%20later,after%2C%20a%20while%2C%20crocodile.
Pascal Tréguer indicates that "The earliest instance of see you later, alligator and its expected response afterwhile crocodile that I have found was from Teenagers’ Slang Expressions Are Explained by Columnists, by “Jackie and Jane, Star-Bulletin Teen Columnists”, published in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin (Honolulu, Hawaii) of 1st May 1952:
[…]
Lots of the Hawaii-style slang can be credited to or blamed on the Mainland. Some of it’s strictly jive talk. And of course there’s the additional “pidgin” and Hawaiian words to dress it up.
[…]
Besides the everyday “slang,” many high school students use expressions such as “toodle-oo tofu,” “so long, dai-kong,” or “see you later, alligator.” "
-end of quote-
The words in italics and the words in bold font were given that way in that article.
-snip-
Notice the use of the word "jive" in that 1952 article.
Here's an excerpt from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_jive_talk#:~:text=Jive%20talk%2C%20Harlem%20jive%20or,in%20African%2DAmerican%20society%2C%20peaking
"Jive talk, Harlem jive or simply Jive (also known as the
argot of jazz, jazz jargon, vernacular of the jazz world, slang of jazz, and
parlance of hip[1]) is an African-American Vernacular English slang that
developed in Harlem, where "jive" (jazz) was played and was adopted
more widely in African-American society, peaking in the 1940s."....
****
If indeed these colloquial rhyming sayings did originate with American teenagers, which population/s of American teenagers were those columnist referring to?
(I ask this question from the standpoint of 2021, knowing that in the early 1950s White people were almost always considered the default population for any good historic events or any positive creations or inventions.)
Instead of the position that "American teenagers" came up with the srhyming sayings "See you later alligator" and "Afterwhile, crocodile", my position is that African Americans were the creators of those sayings. To be even more specific, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those sayings came from the 1950s or earlier African American Jazz culture. And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that African American teenagers help popularize those sayings in the United States and elsewhere.
-snip-
I used italics to highlight these referents.
****
In the 1950s when I heard the rhyming saying "See you later, alligator" and its usual response "Afterwhile crocodile" iad when I used those sayings then and up until fairly recently, I thought that "alligator" and "the crocodile" just referred to the animals with those names. (I wrote that near the end of this comment that I wrote in a Mudcat folk music discussion thread that I started in May 2005 entitled "I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes" https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=81350 )
Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 24 May 05 - 09:09 PM
"Snuffy[name of another Mudcat commenter], when I was growing up in New Jersey in the 1950s I remember hearing and saying: "What's your number? Cucumber".
Here's another rhyme in the pattern of your example posted on 24 May 05 - 07:16 PM.:
Where you live?
In a sieve.
-snip-
This pattern of short rhyming sentences is very much a part
African American [and others] oral tradition.
Here's some additional examples of jive talk used by children, youth,and adults:
See ya later, alligator.
After while, crocodile?
****
What's the word, mocking bird?
What I said, cabbage head.
****
If I'm lyin I'm flyin.
[and] grits aint groceries
and Mona Lisa is a man.
-snip-
Incidentally, Music Slang Expressions* indicates that the
word 'alligator' in the rhyme provided above referred to a jazz musician:
Alligator
Originally, a slang term for "Musician".
Very early in Jazz history, musicians referred
to themselves as "alligators". Now it simply
refers
to any Swing Devotee (abbrev. 'Gator or Gate)
Note: Louis Armstrong is often called 'Gate Mouth',
from the same source.
Ex:
'Cat' #1: See ya later, alligator.
'Cat' #2: After while, crocodile.
loving and warm description of Louis Armstrong.
Folks said his mouth was as large as a "Satchel",
from which came one of his nick-names -"Satchmo".
He was also called "Gate Mouth", referring to an
'Alligator's mouth'
(see Alligator definition above)
from which we get the expression "Gate" or
"Gator" - originally denoting a person as a
musician,
but today it denotes anyone.
Ex: 'Skin me' "Gate". (Shake hands)
Well, if 'alligator' mean a musician, what does 'crocodile'
mean? [Maybe that question belongs in the current 'Imponderable' thread].
Frankly, that definition kinda fishy to me...I'm sticking to
my belief that most people who said "See ya latah alligatah; afta while
crocodile" figured they were talking about the animals with those names-
nothing more and nothing less.
-end of quote-
*The website Music Slang Expressions was given as a hyperlink. Unfortunately, when I tried to access that site on March 10, 2021 that link is no longer active. However, I found several websites that quote the first part of that quote [the part about the early Jazz meaning for the word "alligator", including this website: https://abigpond.com/blog/2006/07/02/later-gator/
"Later Gator
July 2, 2006 By Al Martine
"I have a habit of using the phrase ‘Later Gator’ or the politically correct ‘Later Gatorette’ in
emails/IM. Over the last couple months, I’ve been asked by a couple friends
whose first language isn’t English to explain.
After a little searching on Google, I’ve found a suitable answer. It apparently comes from the Swing/Jazz era in the US:
Popular Music Slang Expressions:
Alligator
Originally, a slang term for ‘Musician’. Very early in Jazz
history, musicians referred to themselves as ‘alligators’. Now it simply refers
to any Swing Devotee (abbrev. ‘Gator or Gate)
Ex: ‘Cat’ #1: See ya later, alligator.
Cat’ #2: After while, crocodile.” "
Here are some other online resources about the Jazz meaning of the words "alligator", "gator", and some other words. Note: I found no Jazz meaning for "crocodile" so I guess in that rhyming saying "crocodile" is just used because it rhymes with the English word while (In a while" and "afterwhile".
Cab Calloway's book Hepster Dictionary Of Jive: Commonly used Jive terms & phrases, [https://www.apassion4jazz.net/jive-terms.html] published by Cab Calloway around 1939 includes this entry "Alligator (n): jitterbug."*
Here's an entry from that Hepster Dictionary for the word
"gate":
"Gate (n): a male person (a salutation), abbr. for
"gate-mouth."
-snip-
*My guess is that "jitterbug" here means a man who
jitterbugs (plays jitterbug music)?
Here's some glossary entries from h
"Alligator - A devotee of jazz or swing music. Perhaps
alludes to sharp-dressing with alligator leather.[10]
Gate - Any man, usually used as a greeting. "Yo, gate, what's the word from the herd?"
Gatemouth - A horn player who has a large mouth or a mouth that is habitually open. Playing brass instruments often results in larger cheeks and a callus on the player's lip. The larger cheeks is the origin of the word "chops". After 1930, however, "Gatemouth" generally referred only to Louis Armstrong.[12]"
Jive- Cab Calloway defines this in the 1930s as "Harlemese speech", meaning the style of slang. In basic terms jive means talk.[13] It can also mean kidding with someone. It is often confused with jibe which means "be in accordance with".
Jive talk - "Whaddya say, gate? Are you in the know, or are you a solid bringer-downer?" —Cab Calloway. "Are you Hep to the Jive" —Cab Calloway."
It wouldn't be surprising if the rhyming sayings "See you later, alligator" and "Afterwhile crocodile" originated from Black Americans since so much of United States' slang came from and still comes from us.
Check out these three excerpts:
1. From https://stacker.com/stories/3361/americas-most-common-slang-words-explained
America's Most Common Slang Words Explained
by Zack Abrams, July 30, 2019
..."Slang has always had a contentious relationship with ordinary English. A century ago, the word was used to describe language that was unseemly and vulgar; only more recently have we accepted slang as a valid alternate lexicon generally used by younger people. Much of today’s slang comes from African American Vernacular English, or AAVE, the English dialect commonly spoken by the African American community and popularized by hip-hop, rap, and R&B artists. Some slang also comes from the African American LGBTQ+ community, particularly drag culture."....
**
2. From https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/african-american-vernacular-english African American Vernacular English
..."
3. From https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/12/30/2018-slang-words-appropriation_a_23629985/
"These Were 2018's Hottest Slang Words — But Should You
Use Them?
Words matter and you can choose to use them thoughtfully.
By Sima Shakeri, December 31, 2018
"Many of the words and phrases that blew up on social media
this year come from Black Twitter, American black culture and African-American
Vernacular English (AAVE).
[…]
What is AAVE?
AAVE is a dialect of English spoken by many African
Americans and some black Canadians. It has its own grammatical structures,
vocabulary, and accents, which makes it just as valid a variant of English as
British English.
[…]
"Every year new slang from Black culture is beat into
the ground by people who just catch wind of it, without any knowledge or care
of its origin. RIP Turnt and Bye Felicia," writer and comedian Luna
Malbroux shared in a blog.
Dominant groups get to decide, for example, when and if certain words are worth appropriation, when and how the words should be used, and then when the word becomes cliché, overused and therefore passé.
Robin Boylorn, communications professor
But some words [from African American Vernacular English] are so ubiquitous in current North American
English, that it's hard to remember they were ever AAVE at all. Terms like
"cool," "my bad," "hater," "24/7,"
"back in the day," "high-five," "lame" and
"rip off" are only a few that started out in black communities but
are now used everywhere and by everyone, according to Vox.
Everyone, including Black people, is erroneously taught
that Black genius is more or less, public property with no clear 'ownership.'
Chaédria LaBouvier
This is linked to the history of slavery in the U.S. The
most accepted theory is that slaves combined their native languages with
English, or invented new words entirely. White people would then hear slaves
use the terms, and would start to use them too, which led to these words
becoming popularized. Even after slavery ended, this pattern continued,
according to Margaret Lee, a linguist and author who spoke to Vox.”….
-snip-
The words in italics are written that way in that article.
Although cultural appropriation is a topic that is worthy of discussion, in this post I'm interested in the comments about the fact that examples of African American Vernacular English have become common terms and sayings in standard American English.
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In the scheme of things, it's not all that important who came up with the rhyming sayings "See you later, alligator", its usual response "Afterwhile, crocodile" and other similar rhyming words.
However, I believe that the failure to credit these sayings to Black folks is another example of the disregarding Black creativity while automatically and perhaps unconsciously crediting White folks with our creativity. Doing so has real harmful consequences to Black people's self esteem and group esteem.
So if I'm asked who created these rhyming sayings (and even if I'm not asked that question), I will say we (African Americans) did. PeriodT.
****
This concludes Part III of this pancocojams series.
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