Possible Connections Between African American Versions Of "Ring Around The Rosie" & The African American Singing Game "Green Sally Up" (with sound files for "Green Sally Up" & Moby's "Flowers")

Edited by Azizi Powell

This pancocojams post quotes two comments that I wrote in 2008 in a Mudcat folk music forum discussion thread on the origin of the children's rhyme/singing game "Ring Around The Rosie". These comments focus on the similarities between several African American examples of "Ring Around The Rosie" and the African American singing game "Green Sally Up".

This post also includes other comments about the song "Green Sally Up" (as found in a 1961 field recording by Alan Lomax that was include in the 1993 box set entitled Sound Of The South.

The singing game "Green Sally Up" was recorded by White American musician Moby as "Flowers" and included on the "B" side of his 1999 album "Play". A YouTube sound file of "Green Sally Up" that is included in a 1993 field recording by Alan Lomax and a YouTube sound file of "Flowers" is included in the Addendum to this post. Information about those recordings

The content of this post is presented for folkloric and historical purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post. Thanks also to the publisher of this embedded sound file on YouTube.
-snip-
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2020/03/debunking-still-widely-held-myth-that.html for the closely related pancocojams post entitled "Debunking The Still Widely Held Myth That "Ring Around The Rosie" Refers To The 14th Century and/or 16th Century Plague in Europe".

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TWO OLD AFRICAN AMERICAN VERSIONS OF THE CHILDREN'S RHYME/SINGING GAME THAT IS KNOWN IN THE USA AS "RING AROUND THE ROSIE"
From https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=49672
1) Subject: RE: Origins: Ring around the Rosy / Rosey
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:56 AM

I happened upon this thread last night. After reading some of the old American variants of "Ring Around The Rosie", I got to thinking about the possible connection between these rhymes and the version of "Green Sally Up" that is found on Disc 4 of Alan Lomax's Sounds of the South, A Musical Journey from the Georgia Sea Isles to the Mississippi Delta {Atlantic 787496-2; 1993}.

There's another version of "Green Sally Up" that is included in the book but not the record of African American Georgia Sea Isles children's game songs, Step It Down by Bessie Jones and Bess Lomax Hawes. The "Step It Down" version of "Green Sally Up" is composed by combining floating lines and verses from "Miss Mary Mack", "I Love Coffee, I Love Tea" and other African American children's rhymes. As such, besides their first lines, the "Step It Down" version has very little in common with the "Sounds Of The South" version of "Green Sally Up". For that reason I think that the "Sounds Of The South" version of "Green Sally Up" is older than the "Step It Down" version.

Here are the two versions of these rhymes that I've mentioned:

Version #1- [from "Sounds Of The South" CD]
Green Sally up. Green Sally down.
last one squat got to tear the ground.

Ole {Oh?} Miss Lucy dead and gone.
Left me here to weep and moan.
If you hate it fold your arms.
If you love it clap your hands.

-snip-

Version #2- [from "Step It Down"]
Green Sally up, Green Sally down
Green Sally bake her possum brown.

Asked my mama for fifteen cents
to see the elephant jump the fence.
He jumped so high, he touched the sky
He never got back till the fourth of July.

You see that house upon that hill,
That's where me and my baby live.

Oh the rabbit in the hash come a-stepping in the dash,
With his long-tailed coat and his beaver on.

**

Btw, the song "Flowers" by the pop singer Moby uses the repeated clip of the Sounds of The South recording of "Green Sally Up". Could it be that Moby named his song "Flowers" because he thinks there's a connection between "Green Sally Up" and "Ring Around The Rosie" [particularly those versions of that game song found in Newell's book and posted in Q's 30 Oct 04 - 11:21 PM comment on this thread]?

Maybe...

**

I'll share some additional thoughts about the possible connections between some "Ring Around The Rosie" rhymes and the "Sounds of South" version of "Green Sally Up" in my next post to this thread.

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2) Subject: RE: Origins: Ring around the Rosy / Rosey
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:34 AM

The first rhyme that I think has some similarities with "Green Sally Up" {what I call version #1, The Sounds of South" CD version} is the rhyme that Dicho posted on this thread in 2002

Ring around a rosey, pocket full o' posies,
Light bread, Sweet bread, Squat!
Guess who she told me, tralalalala,
Mister Red was her lover, tralalalala,
If you love him, hug him!
If you hate him, stomp!

-snip-

Source: Lomax and Lomax, 1939 Southern States Collecting Trip, from Wiergate, Texas: (Sec. 13, Merryville, LA and vicinity)

-snip-

I call this version "Louisiana Ring Around The Rosie" because Lomax and Lomax collected it from Louisiana {LA].

The last two lines of that rhyme remind me of the lines "If you hate it fold your arms/ If you love it clap your hands" in version #1 of "Green Sally Up" as given above. Also, version #1 of "Green Sally Up" and that Louisiana version of "Ring Around The Rosie" both include the word "squat".

Actually, as Q has shared with us in this thread, a number of Southern American versions of "Ring Around The Rosie" include the word "squat".

Here are reposts of two of these examples from Q's post above:

Ring around the rosie,
Squat among the posies,
Ring around the roses,
Pockets full of posies,
One, two, three- *squat!
-snip-

Should this be called "Ring Around The Rosie, Squat} to distinquish it from other Ring Around The Rosie" examples?

A Ring, A Ring, A Raney
A ring, a ring, a raney
Buttermilk and tansy,
Flower here and flower there,
And all- squat!

-snip-

I call this version "A Ring, A Ring, A Raney". I know that ring means circle, but what does "raney" mean?

Both of these examples are from the same source: W. W. Newell, Games and Songs of American Children, 1883, (1903), Dover reprint.

If the African American game song "Green Sally Up" originally had as it's source the British game song "Ring Around The Rosie" ,then it eventually became an entirely different song-as seen by the "Step It Down" version. Of course, any "early" connection between these two game songs is speculation on my part. But I believe that it's worth a thought or two.

My thanks to Dicho, Malcolm Douglas, and Q for jump starting my thoughts about a possible connections between "Green Sally Up" and "Ring Around The Rosie". I'm interested in any comments that folks here might have about these speculations."
-snip-
Unfortunately, there were no acknowledgements or replies on that discussion thread to my comments about the possible connections between these African American singing games.

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ADDITIONAL EXCERPT ABOUT THIS SONG
From https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-meaning-behind-the-Bring-Sally-Up-song
Allen Matthew, B.S. Culinary Arts, Johnson & Wales University
Answered Dec 21, 2017
"I found this about “Flower”, hope it helps. I do not know who to credit for the original post though… the lyrics used in "Flower" are sampled from an old African American children's song called "Green Sally Up," which shares similarities with the British children's song, "Ring Around The Rosie." The actual lyrics being sung in the "Flower" sample are "Green Sally up, Green Sally down. Last one squat gotta tear the ground." It is correct to assume that this song is rooted historically in the slave culture of the American South, but it was more a song to entertain and occupy the children out in the fields than it was a commentary on slavery. Like "Ring Around The Rosie," "Green Sally Up" has an accompanying game that's played in time and accordance with the lyrics. 'Green Sally' means 'little girl,' hence the first two lines direct the children to rise up and then squat down in rhythm with the song. "Last one squat gotta tear the ground" means, quite plainly, that the last child to squat has to help the adults with the cotton picking. It's assumed that this was not a literal rule of the game, but a threat of the "last one home is a rotten egg" variety. The lines, "Old Miss Lucy's dead and gone, left me here to weep and moan" is indeed a reference to the death of a slave 'owner', and in the original song is followed by the lines, "If you hate it, fold your arms; if you love it, clap your hands," which was a signal for those listening to indicate their feelings towards their 'master' by either joining in the rhythmic clapping that accompanies the song, or by refraining from doing so, which would indicate a measure of love/respect/complacency that the individual may have had for the 'owner'."

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ADDENDUM: SOUND FILES
Example #1: Green Sally, Up



Jesse Lee Pratcher & Mattie Garder - Topic, Feb 23, 2016

Green Sally, Up · Jesse Lee Pratcher & Mattie Garder

Sounds Of The South

℗ 1993 Atlantic Recording Corporation For the United States and WEA International Inc. for the world outside of the United States.

Series Producer: Alan Lomax
Vocals: Jessie Pratcher
Vocals: Mary Gardner
Vocals: Mattie Gardner
Series Producer: Yves Beauvais
Writer: Jessie Pratcher
-snip-
Here are the comments I posted in response to this comment exchange:
LetsPlaySomeGames, 2019
"Is this the original song!?"

**
REPLY
BlueHen123, 2020
"no"

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REPLY
Azizi Powell, 2020
"@BlueHen123 & LetsPlaySomeGames, here's information about "Green Sally Up" as sung by Jesse Lee Pratcher & Mattie Garder:
From https://www.amazon.com/Sounds-South-Musical-Journey-Mississippi/dp/B000002IVR
..."Alan Lomax received funding from Atlantic Records in 1959 to head into the Southeast with the latest in stereo field recording technology, and this set collects the original eight records issued as a result of that trek in 1961. The sound quality is brilliant, the performances uncompromisingly raw, vibrant, plaintive, and real--everything the Greenwich Village folk movement tried to be is encapsulated on these slices of rural sound. " -Mike McGonigal

**
Azizi Powell, 2020
"If you are asking does this "Sound Of The South" version predates Moby's song "Flowers", yes as it was performed in 1961 and Moby's album "Play" which includes the track "Flowers" was first released in 1999. However, the words to the "Sound of the South" rendition of "Green Sally Up" indicate that it was sung by Black people during United States slavery (oh Miss Lucy dead and gone/left me here to weep and moan). No one knows when during slavery this was composed and who was the person or persons who composed it."

**
Azizi Powell, 2020
A[s] somewhat of an aside, here's a 1939 African American version of "Ring Around The Rosie" that is similar to "Green Sally Up":
"A version from Lomax and Lomax, 1939 Southern States Collecting Trip, from Wiergate, Texas:
Ring around a rosey, pocket full o' posies,
Light bread, Sweet bread, Squat!
Guess who she told me, tralalalala,
Mister Red was her lover, tralalalala,
If you love him, hug him!
If you hate him, stomp!"

****
Example #2: Moby - Flower (Official Audio)



Moby, Aug 1, 2014
-snip-
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play:_The_B_Sides
..."The song "Flower" was featured on the soundtrack for the 2000 film Gone in 60 Seconds[3] and is also used for the Bring Sally Up exercise challenge, with participants doing squats or push-ups up or down along with the lyrics of the song.[4]...
-snip-
The track listings on that page indicate that "All tracks are written by Moby." No mention is made of that the song entitled "Flowers" is lifted from Alan Lomax's 1961 field recordings that were compiled in 1993 in one box set of four records. That box set is entitled Sounds of the South: A Musical Journey from the Georgia Sea Islands to the Mississippi Delta. In that recording "Flowers" is titled "Green Sally Up". Here's information about the Sounds Of The South records from https://www.amazon.com/Sounds-South-Musical-Journey-Mississippi/dp/B000002IVR:
..."Alan Lomax received funding from Atlantic Records in 1959 to head into the Southeast with the latest in stereo field recording technology, and this set collects the original eight records issued as a result of that trek in 1961. The sound quality is brilliant, the performances uncompromisingly raw, vibrant, plaintive, and real--everything the Greenwich Village folk movement tried to be is encapsulated on these slices of rural sound. Because of its high fidelity and the immense character found within the performances, this is the Lomax document to own if you absolutely have to pick a single one. Deep delta slide blues, enthusiastic shape-note singing from the Sacred Harp song book, lined-out hymnody, children's songs, mountain bluegrass music, juke-joint barrelhouse blues--it's all here and much more. This is vibrant, pure American music at its finest. --Mike McGonigal
-snip-
Here's a comment from Wayne Ellis who shared the history of this song in that sound file's discussion thread (given with several responses to that comment, numbers added for referencing purposes only)

1, Wayne Ellis, 2018
"It’s actually “Green Sally up Green Sally down,last done squat gotta tear the ground”
It was originally a game children (usually black children) used to play in the south whilst their parents worked the fields!...In the game,if you were the last one to squat,you had to help the adults work the field (“tear the ground”)"

**
REPLY
2. JOSHUA KANE, 2018
"@Wayne Ellis "till the ground"

**
REPLY
Apryl Caldwell, 2019
"@Wayne Ellis I had no idea. Thanks for the history to the song. I hate that if ever had to be a thing though."

**
REPLY
3. Wayne Ellis, 2019
"Apryl Caldwell...So do I ☹️"
-snip-
Here's a comment that attributes this song to African Americans and my response to that comment:
Ben Long, 2016
..."It was adopted as a workout song, moby wrote it referring to activities developed by slaves in the 1800s"

**
Here's my response to Ben Long's comment:
Azizi Powell, 2020
"@Ben Long Moby didn't write the song he titled "Flowers". He lifted that song from a 1993 field recording of the song (actually an African American children's singing game) called "Green Sally Up". That song is part of a multiple disc album set entitled "Sounds of the South" that can be found on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8QqJwW6a90
-snip-
"Green Sally Up" is also [erroneously] given the title "Bring Sally Up" because some people thought that the singers said "bring" instead of "green".
-snip-
[Added March 15, 2020]
Here's a quote of almost the entire dailykos article about Moby's Green Sally Up (except for the last line about a YouTube version of that song)
From https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/10/5/1577996/-Morning-Open-Thread-Old-slave-children-s-song-Bring-Sally-Up Morning Open Thread - Old slave children's song: "Bring Sally Up." by
Otteray Scribe,2016/10/05
"Welcome to Blues Wednesday on Morning Open Thread. Today, we have a mashup of a centuries old children's song. Not just any children’s song, but one by and for slave children in the old South. The meaning is obscure to most people. The original lyrics varied, because songs by and for children are not static. This is an approximation of the original:

Sometimes it was “Bring Sally Up” and sometimes “Green Sally.” It went on to the next line, “Last one squat gotta tear the ground." That was accompanied by dance like antics, where “Sally" referred to the little girls. They jumped and then squatted in rhythm to the song. Tearing the ground meant the last one to squat had to scrabble in the dirt with their hands.

The line, "Last one squat gotta tear the ground", is similar to the more modern phrase, "Last one to do it is a rotten egg," sort of teasing. The implication being that the last one to squat had to help the adults in the field, although it was a playground tease and not a serious threat.

The song goes on, "Old miss Lucy's dead and gone, left me here to weep alone." That verse meant the slave owner (or his wife), is dead. In the original song that verse is followed with the call, "If you hate it fold your arms, if you love it clap your hands." Obviously the kids who clapped along to the rhythmic beat of the song were glad that Old Miss Lucy has died, and the ones who didn't were showing a measure of respect for her.

During slavery days in the old south, white and black children were not allowed to play together. Kids being kids, they were innovative. From different places in the yard or field, but within eyesight or earshot, both groups of children would sing and play together using Sally as the code name for all to play. Black and White were able to play the same games without being in a mixed group.

The iconoclastic singer, Moby, who is white, manages to capture the rhythm and feel of the old slave song."...
-snip-
The word "green" in "green girl" probably means "young, inexperienced".

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