Edited by Azizi Powell
This pancocojams post features Part I of a YouTube video entitled "Black In Spain" and focuses on selected comments from that video's discussion thread about which is the meanings of the Spanish referents "morena"/"moreno" and "negro"/negra" and which is the most appropriate referent/non-racist term to use for people of Black descent.
The content of this post is presented for socio-cultural and linguistic purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to the publisher of this video and thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
****
SHOWCASE VIDEO:
Black In Spain | Part 1
Somewhere Always Published on May 5, 2016
I'm talking about being Black again- SHOCKER! Some say Spain is racist. I say... well you've got to watch to find out! I was in Spain for over a year. Being Black abroad can be stressful, worrisome and overwhelming at times. *sigh*
-snip-
Click https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSFA8yWcrh8 for Part II of this vlog.
****
SELECTED COMMENTS FROM THIS VIDEO'S DISCUSSION THREAD
Pancocojams Editor's Note:
These comments are given in chronological order with the oldest comments by year presented first, except for replies. Numbers are assigned to these comments for referencing purposes only.
1. Ramón Antonio Parada, 2016
"I'm Spanish (Galician) and I had an African American girlfriend from California. People from Spain would think that American perspective on race is way too complicated if they knew about it, but they don't know about it. I think you reflected this well in the video. I have used the words "American American" because my ex-girlfriend explained that it was the right word to use. She had to explain to me many things about American culture.
I think the reason that we use both negra and morena is because of we don't know what the right word is. There is not right word because 20 years ago there were only black people in a couple of cities in Spain. Most people use a word based on the level of brown of the skin, plain and simple. We also use the same words if a local white person gets a lot of tan. Some other people may have a more complex view like assume that all latin americans are morenas (being mulata a synonym) and americans & african will be negras but much less people than the first ones. But nobody will understand your complex view on this topic.
We are like naive for the good and for the bad. I want to think that most of the time we do well. Sometimes we want to be friendly and say something that would be inappropriate in the states, like if someone asks you "why your hair is that way?". In that case is just curiosity, that person didn't saw a hair like yours in their life. They don't remotely know about what you are thinking about. 99% of the people in Spain won't understand the hair part of this video.
Sadly we sometimes can be racist or too stereotypical and don't event notice. Some people will assume that black people are always the same: poor, foreigner and from african origin and will only be proven wrong if you clearly dress like a money person. That in part is because of our history, we lived in a dictatorship not long ago and we had little communication with other countries so most black people came to Spain less than ten years ago, were poor and started with small jobs or selling in the street. Hopefully this people are starting to have Spanish born children and starting to do well but still rich black people are mostly football players.
When I was a child in the small town were I was born Baltasar Magic King was always played by a white guy with the skin painted so 5 year olds would think it is the real Baltasar King and they would love it without realizing he is painted. Nobody with black skin or long white beard lived there so we did the best we could. And I think the same happened in the big cities like Madrid because I don't remember seein something different on TV. It was only after I was 20 that started seeing Baltasar played by a black guy in big cities. Children now have seen black people so now even 5 year olds can tell a fake Baltasar. Also there is now black people in my little town but Baltasar is still a painted white guy. Why is that? Magic Kings are played by volunteers, it wouldn't be polite to ask somebody to play certain role because of their beard or skin, and we are used to our fake Magic Kings but we have to paint them better.
I hope this helps. For any person who reads this if you are thinking about visiting Spain don't waste your precious time worrying about finding a racist person. Ignore him if you find one, you are better than him, and I hope you have a great time in Spain!"
****
2. sa m, 2016
"About the negro/moreno issue... The word negro/a is just an adjective, and there's nothing wrong with that. When people try to avoid describing you as negro/a is really a red flag cause they think its a bad word when is not.
I've encountered situations when I've said that I'm a black person and they responded me by saying "no, you're just morena", and that's what's really offensive and racist."
**
Reply
3. Sharrif Bey, 2017
"sa m - they are calling you by the name of your ancient ancestors whether they know it or not. Deeply melanin rich people that ruled the world and navigated the 7 seas, the Moors, hence, Moreno y Morena is Kool."
**
4. Luna Ariyadi, 2016
"Idk why are people so pissed off! In Spanish "Negro" is just the name of a color. In America everytime you refer to someone you don't know you probably would say "that tall guy over there" or "the blond one". A white person is called "Blanco" and a black person is called "Negro". If Americans took the word "negro" to use it the wrong way it's not Spain's fault. My boyfriend is black and when we point someone to know who are we talking about if that person is black he would say "el negro" like any other person would. It would be racist if you said something wrong about it or add an insult like "puto negro" that's racist. But the word black alone just means black. Also "moreno" can be anybody with darker skin than pale."
**
Reply
5. Somewhere Always, 2016
"+Luna Ariyadi this is pissed to you? I was extra calm. Also- I'm actually not the color Black, I'm brown. If calling me Negro is acknowledging my race - then Spaniards should acknowledge race in society not just in conversation."
**
Reply
6. Sharrif Bey, 2017
"Luna Ariyadi - Moreno means Moor; lineage of all melanin rich people. Spain during the inquisition took over Al Andalusia which it was called before the defeat of the Moors at Granada."
**
Reply
Luna Ariyadi, 2017
"Moreno doesn't mean moor, MORO means moor and is an offensive word. Moreno means "darker than white" I'm morena, if you see me outside you would call me morena, but I'm not African or from the North of Africa. Indonesian people are morenos, South American people are morenos. In history class we have always learned people who conquered the South of Spain were called "moros" not "morenos" because a lot of people from different ethnicities can be called moreno."
**
Reply
8. Luna Ariyadi, 2017
"I'm not complaining about you, I'm generalizing people who don't fully know the meaning of some words and might have cultural shocks because of it. A person with African origins here are called "Africanos", "negros" or "personas de color". In the US you call an Afroamerican "black" right? here is the same thing. A white person is called white and a black person is called black, it is not racist, it is not meant to be an offensive word, it is in English but not in Spanish. Here even black people call "negro" to other black people, everybody does. Just like someone would call me "morena" and someone would call a white person "blanco". And if you don't like it tell people how would you like to be called instead and comprehensive people will understand."
**
Reply
9. Sharrif Bey, 2017
"Black, and white being used to classify people for supremacy purposes came from Alfred Blumenbach, and Karolus Lineaus; its called a caste system, get it. You're right peoples all over the world that are deeply melanin enriched are also Moors, hence Moreno. Black being a nation of people doesn't exist, nor white. What people have been taught to use is connotative linguistics, instead of denotative. Its about knowing, not feelings."
**
10. Amelia D, 2016
"I've been living in Spain for a month and before I came I saw so many videos about the racism here. I have experienced none of it fortunately. So many people said it would be racist but it actually wasn't. I hadn't even been called Morena. In Barcelona I had a convo about the racism in America and how police brutality was never new in the US. I guess I lived with a good host family. I just heard someone say el negro. That's all. knocks on wood"
**
Reply
11. Amelia, 2016
"Also I don't think being called negro is racist. When I first started learning Spanish we learned that black (race) is negro. That's just what it is. It's a harsher word than Morena which is just like a "shade" but in Spanish id proudly say that I'm "negra" that's what it is. I feel like Asian ppl were highlighted more than blacks anyway. Like many would just refer to Asians as chinos. Which again means Chinese, but my friend who is Chinese, was always referred to as la China and never by her name. No one really bothered to find out her name. That I think was racist"
**
Reply
12. NeccoWecco1, 2016
"You're called morena because you aren't as dark toned as many people who come from africa. It is racism, since you are being singled out for your skin tone, but it isnt necessarily mean they were treating it negatively. I'm a white foreigner in Spain and I have been treated both rudely (being called guiri) and others who treat me as everyone else in the community. I think, just as you stated, people often use words like negra, morena, guiri in a context that they think is non-offensive, but fail to realise that it is inherently offensive."
**
13. NeccoWecco, 2016
"+moonbeeps Guiri is despective. It's saying "filthy foreigner", pointing out that you are different, dont fit in, and don't belong. Obviously, Guiri de mierda, is way worse."
**
Reply
14. moonbeeps, 2016
"No it isnt, its just a way to refer to a very white person that looks german or english. If you say sguiri de mierda then ofcourse its despective..... Or negra de mierda. Ofcourse that despective. But just guiri or just negro is a way to refer to someone's phisical apearance. I know, im spanish. And its certainly doesnt mean filthy foreigner xDDD"
**
15. Hiponakte, 2016
Where I live "morena" is (at least originally) the dark skinned Mediterranean type (moreno=moorish like), whereas "negra" is the subsaharan really black skinned type. Now, "morena" usually have a sexy ring, something like "my pretty dark skinned girl", and I think that black people prefer the word "moreno/a" than "negro/a" . The word "negra" is kind of neutral in Spain (but not always), and the word "negrita" (literally "little black girl"), used as "pretty black girl", may easily sound condescending. So I use "moreno/a" instead of "negro/a": language is always evolving, black people like it, and it sounds well and amicable.
**
16. Hiponakte, 2016
"+SomewhereAlways Tee The problem is that the pair "black/white" was never really Spanish until the English American culture became the culture of the West (in the good and bad things). In Spanish "blanco" is (was?) someone who couldn't get any tan: those who pass from milky-white to crab-red in the sun. And "blanco" was not seen as a race. Now, with the trend of calling "moreno" to black people (something that in Latin America is much more established than in Spain) the meaning of "blanco" is also shifting: it can't be that my younger sister, who is very "blanca" (she can't get any tan, no matter how much she tries), and me, who can get quite a tan, can't be from different "races", and even less from different "ethnicities". Language is evolving, we will see where all this thing ends."
**
Reply
17. SomewhereAlways, 2016
"+Hiponakte which is precisely why I say it's relative. I take everyone as they are with their vocabulary but if I see a trend that Spaniards who are damn near the same color as me (and I've met QUITE a few) are considered morena but you call me negra. It makes me wonder. Especially when I've never heard any Spaniard use negra in a positive tone. In other situations (mainly in America) speaking Spanish- I don't blink an eye. But let's not forget that the concept of race (caucasoid, negroid etc) originated in Europe. slavery perpetuated it in Europe AND America. Its just developed into a different idea in America than in Europe."
**
Reply
18. Hiponakte, 2016
"+SomewhereAlways Tee A dark Spanish woman (or a dark Moroccan woman etc.) is "morena", but not "negra", because traditionally "morena" was "dark Mediterranean", and nobody would mistake you with a native Andalusian, or Moroccan, Sicilian, Tunisian etc. Anyway, I'd like to point out this: the black people that we have in Spain (from Senegal, Mali, Nigeria...) have not experienced the association of race and slavery that the black people in the Americas have suffered, nor the post slavery history of legal segregation or de facto segregation... they have another story and history: they are migrants and unskilled workers in a country where is not easy to find a job. So they have had difficult experiences and traumas... but different from that of the African Americans.
Another interesting difference between the USA and Spain is that in Spain the ethnicities that have been traditionally more discriminated against are not the blacks, but the "gitanos" (gypsies) and "moros" (North African or Middle Eastern Muslims). The Gypsies and the Muslims have been wronged, the Gypsies and Muslims have "persecution paranoia" and integration problems, but the blacks are regarded as peaceful and hardworking (the situation in France is just the same, but with a much older black community)."
**
19. Felicity Martinez, 2016
"I am mixed and Spanish and the word for me is "mulata", but sometimes as an insult i have been called "negra + [insert bad thing]". It depends on the connotation, but normally people refer to my mother (100% black african) as morena and me and my brother are "morenitos/mulatos". In Andalucia, where I'm from, people usually use "africano" for just black people because the majority of the black population are in fact African inmigrants. I hope this helps to clear it ;)"
**
Reply
20. Felicity Martinez, 2016
"Also, in Andalucia they call white people (as in White americans, germans, english, etc) "guiris", which they dont' consider themselves or any mediterranean people to be in the same category."
**
Reply
21. Hiponakte, 2016
"+Felicity Martinez Interesting comment. And I can tell you that the word "guiri", used for foreigners, is originally Basque (I am from the Basque Country): in the Southern Basque Country (Spain) "christian" is said "kristau", whereas in the Northern Basque Country (France) "christian" is said "giristino" (the "g" in Basque is always pronounced soft, "gu"). So the Southern Basques began to refer to the Northern Basques with the derogatory contraction "guiri"(-stino). Nowadays the word is used with the meaning of "noisy and gaudy European (or White American) tourist"... and I would say that the word "guiri" is still derogatory, in the same league as "moro", "ni&&a"*, "spick" etc."
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.
**
Reply
22. Surf Florida, 2016
" "Guiri" is a term used in the whole country and not only in Andalucia. however it is is not synonym for white. Guiri is used to describe a foreigner, usually from northern European countries, who comes to Spain on holidays. A "guiri is a way to describe Europeans vacationing in Spain. If you move there to work or study you do not qualify as a "guiri" anymore :)"
**
Reply
23. Northern Light, 2017
"Well its like that in Finland too. If someone is talking about "tumma tyttö" = dark girl it can mean that the girl has dark hair or that she has darker skin than average Finnish person. There are no official racial terms. So for me if someone called me "white boy" (like they seem to do in US), I would be ready to fight. I find describing me like that very offensive. I also know that if Finnish black person would call me "valkoinen poika" = white boy that he/she would try to offend me."
**
24. Carmen Ferreras Santana, 2016
"I´m Dominican, my family is very diversy... In my home, we all have different skin tones, I have light skin and straight hair sisters and a brother, and black with afro hair sisters and brother... I´m also a black with afro hair... My parents call me "negra", my best friend and she has white skin and she calls me "morena", "negra" and I don´t mind because I know she´s not saying it in a bad way, some guys when they are flirting with me they call me "Negra" and obviesly is not racism... I think this words ain´t an issue until we become it into one. Is not the same to call a person "negra/o" that say "Ese/a negro/a" ... I mean the word by itself is hurtless.... You have to listen the all sentences or evaluate the all context of a conversation to judge the word as a racist instrument. Good bless you all, and remember that we are the same under our skins."
**
25. Rocio, 2016
"It will always depends on how (tone) people say the word "NEGRA" for any hispanics and Spanish people you will be selected as a "Negra" but we don't mean it in a bad way but like a category. You are right people define Jennifer Lopez as a "MORENA" because she has dark skin but not very that dark black. Most of the people (specially hispanics) when they are talking to a black person will always say that you are "MORENA" because it sounds and it feels better to say in order to not feel uncomfortable.
I hope you understood sorry if you didn't get it lol I tried my best english hahaha
greetings!"
**
26. Atheris Nebulosa, 2016
"I'm Spanish and we call black people negros/as and black people call themselves like that as well not only here but also in Latinoamérica. I do the same and even if they call you "negrita" is kind of cute, I don't think it is negative as well as calling white a white girl is not. Simply because there is nothing wrong in being black or white, it's just beautiful that human beings come in different shades and shapes. By the way in from Granada and I appreciate that you enjoyed Andalucía 👍 👋"
**
Reply
27. Somewhere Always, 2016
"+Atheris Nebulosa I loooooooooooooved Granada- except the cold hahaha. Por eso me queda en Malaga!
Negro only bothers me because spain doesn't really acknowledge race. But then they'll call me negra instead of morena and say it's because of my race...🤔"
**
28. Alberto Cano, 2016
"Gracias Guapa! Btw: there is an expression "estar negro" (being black) that only means being "mad" or very upset. It has no racist connotation. In Spanish there are 2 verbs "to be" and this is a bit confusing sometimes. Hasta pronto."
**
Reply
29. Somewhere Always, 2016
"+Alberto Cano Yeah I doubt any racist intent is meant. It's a modern colloquialism. But more often than not linguistically black is bad and negative and white is pure and good. That's not a coincidence."
**
30. Sara Rifat, 2016
"As well, depending on what part of Spain you go to they will call you Negra, Morena etc. I mean, in the South it's much more different that at the north and stuff like that."
**
Reply
31. Rafa Cañizares, 2016
"Actually not. I was born in the South of Spain but currently I live in the North, so I can tell you there is not distinction between different parts of the country. All of the spaniards use words like "negra, mulata, morena, etc" by the context or referring a concrete race."
**
32. DuskSunDawn, 2016
"Well, spanish people don't refer to themselves as "white" (blancos").
They refer to themselves as latins (latinos) or europeans ("europeos"). The social identity of spainish people is 1º) being from in Spain 2º) belonging to a latin country and having the latin culture 3º) belonging to catholic culture (if you don't include "catholic culture" inside the concept of "latin culture").
However, they are used to describe people using worrds like "árabes" (arabs), gitanos (spanish gipsies), gitano del este (easthern gipsies), "negros" (blacks).
Please notice that sometimes "negro"(black) is seen as a sign of racism. Some people prefer to call them "africanos"( african people")."
**
33. DuskSunDawn, 2016
"About "morena". "Morena" is usually means "someone who has black hair".
However, "morena" also means "someone who has tanned skin".
They describe physical appearance, not race.
For example, some spanish people say "En América Latina las personas tienen una piel mas morena""("In Latin America people have darker skin tone")."
**
34. Guido Duh, 2017
"Negro/negra are not really that offensive in the Spanish language in general but they might have some racist connotation sometimes and in some places more than others. Where I live we use negro and moreno almost indistinctly even for people with non obvious African ancestry as "el negro Araiza" (a T. V. presenter) or "el son de la negra" (a folk song). And we tend to add ito/ita diminutive endings that mimic Nahuatl honorific/diminutive ending tzin to make them sound even less racist (at least for our Mexican ears)."
**
35. Ignacio de Puig, 2017
"well I'm from Spain and the word that people use the most to insult or offend black people is `negrata´. if u ever hear this word turn around call ¨la guardia civil and beat that guys but before they arrive."
**
36. Rosario Navío, 2017
"Negra can both be good and racist"
**
37. Ana León Martin, 2017
"it is more racist to say morena instead of negra, because that means being negra its not possitive. A lot of the black-spanish community is trying to show that negro or negra do not need eufemisims. Lots of love from Spain honey❤"
**
38. Bill Asbell, 2017
"Morena means brunette in Spanish, Negra means black, pure and simple."
**
Reply
39. NyFilmmaker32, 2017
"Bill Asbell Moreno is used to describe brunettes and brown skinned people in Spanish. Negro isn't used as much, and depending on the context can be perjorative"
**
40. cilveti, 2017
"Late to the party but I just wanted to clarify that, as you have shown in your example, if someone uses negro as an adjective on you (ese chico negro) there is no problem, but if they use the word negro to DEFINE you (ese negro) then they are being racist, since they treat you as someone different than them just for being black"
****
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
No comments:
Post a Comment