Sunday, June 7, 2015

A Timeline For The Use Of The Saying "The Blacker The Berry, The Sweeter The Juice"

Edited by Azzi Powell

Update: June 3, 2020

This post traces the saying "The blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice" from its inclusion in African American Thomas W. Talley's 1922 book Negro Folk Rhymes: Wise & Otherwise to Kendrick Lamar's 2015 Hip Hop record that has that saying as its title.

The content of this post is presented for historical, sociological, and cultural purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post and thanks to the publishers of these examples on YouTube.
Click for a modified version of this timeline that only includes the dates and the name/title of the book, song, movie, or television show that has "The Blacker The Berry/The Sweeter the Juice as its title or otherwise includes that saying.

These are the examples that I'm aware of. I'd appreciate information about any other examples.

1896 -"Blacker the berry the sweeter the juice" is quoted as a saying in the St. Mary's [Kansas] _Journal_, 12/17/1896. [Hat tip to Joseph Scott for this information. Read his June 2, 2020 comment in this post's comment thread.]

1922 - Thomas W. Talley, editor Negro Folk Rhymes: Wise & Otherwise
You loves yō' gal?
Well, I loves mine.
Yō' gal hain't common?
Well, my gal's fine.
I loves my gal,
She hain't no goose—
Blacker 'an blackberries,
Sweeter 'an juice.

[p. 95] "Negro Folk Songs, Wise And Otherwise"; Gutenberg electronic edition. This collection of rhymes was originally published in 1922.
"Yo gal hain't common/Well, my gal's fine." = Your girlfriend isn't plain. Well, my girlfriend looks good [too]."

December 1923 - Edmonia Henderson's song "Black Man Blues".
The opening line of that song is "The blacker the berry/the sweeter the juice" [Hat tip to Anonymous February 22, 2020 for sharing this information.]
for a sound file of that song.

1929 - [novel] The Blacker The Berry by Wallace Thurman
The Blacker the Berry...
"One of the most widely read and controversial works of the Harlem Renaissance, The Blacker the Berry...was the first novel to openly explore prejudice within the Black community. This pioneering novel found a way beyond the bondage of Blackness in American life to a new meaning in truth and beauty.

Emma Lou Brown's dark complexion is a source of sorrow and humiliation -- not only to herself, but to her lighter-skinned family and friends and to the white community of Boise, Idaho, her home-town. As a young woman, Emma travels to New York's Harlem, hoping to find a safe haven in the Black Mecca of the 1920s. Wallace Thurman re-creates this legendary time and place in rich detail, describing Emma's visits to nightclubs and dance halls and house-rent parties, her sex life and her catastrophic love affairs, her dreams and her disillusions -- and the momentous decision she makes in order to survive.

A lost classic of Black American literature, The Blacker the a compelling portrait of the destructive depth of racial bias in this country."

..."Variations in skin tone has historically related to European and Native American ancestry among African Americans, and the tangled history of slave societies, and benefits that some mixed-race children received from white fathers.* The topic of behavior related to differing skin tones has since been treated by other artists and writers, and the issue of skin bias has been studied as a sociological and psychological issue among academics.[2]

Despite the calls for Black Power and "Black is beautiful" in the mid-twentieth century, studies have found that skin tone bias continues. It is more openly discussed, studied and, at times, mocked.[2] The director Spike Lee has explored this topic, particularly in his film School Daze (1988), about students at a prestigious college (modeled on Spelman College and Morehouse College).

In 2001 Maxine S. Thompson and Verna M. Keith presented the results of a study on gender, skin tone and self efficacy. They found darker skin more problematic for women, for whom skin tone had more effect on self-esteem, especially for lower and working class women. Higher class women could escape the effects of skin color by other accomplishments. Skin tone presented less of a self-esteem issue for men, but did affect their sense of self-efficacy.[2]

...In the 1993 song Keep Ya Head Up by rapper Tupac Shakur, the novel's line "the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice" is referenced. The novel is also referenced in Kendrick Lamar's 2015 song "The Blacker the Berry"."**
*It’s significant that the editors wrote “from their white fathers” and made no reference to the possibility of people who are mixed race having non-Black mothers.

**It's more accurate to say that these Hip Hop examples and other usages of the line "the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice" quote the saying and not necessarily the book with that title. However, the book is an early documented example of the use of Black folk's use of that saying to mean that dark skinned Black females are just as good if not better than other females.

1969 - The Isley Brothers- The Blacker The Berrie (a/k/a Black Berries)
From "The Blacker The Berries (aka Black Berries) The Isley Brothers" AllMusic Review by Andrew Hamilton
"The late '60s and early '70s remain a favorite period in the Isley Brothers evolution. Ronald sung hard, and brothers O'Kelly and Rudolph supplied church-inspired backing whoops to his lead. The tunes had catchy titles and creative, rhyming lyrics. This recording is loaded with that rocking, "It's Your Thing" style. "The Blacker the Berry the Sweeter Juice" isn't about fruit but speaks of the desirability of dark-complexioned women."...

The Isley Brothers- The Blacker The Berrie (a/k/a Black Berries)

#TheIsleyBrothers Published on Nov 6, 2014

April 5, 1974- Foxy Brown movie
U"Pam Grier's character says "the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice" in her starring role in Foxy Brown." [Hat tip to Unknown February 25, 2017] for sharing this information.]

1980 Fame [movie]
The character Coco played by Irene Cara says "The blacker the berry/the sweeter the juice" to a White female dancer, indicating that the Black dancer Leroy doesn't like "vanilla". The White dancer's response was "Yes, but who wants Diabetes."

Warning- This exchange includes profanity. Click Fame (1980)-The Darker The Berry (claws come out).mpg, published by cosmojay, Feb 3, 2012

[Hat tip to Unknown, June 7, 2019 who sent a comment in to this post saying that Leroy said it [The blacker the berry etc.] I don't know if that commenter referred to the character Leroy in the movie Fame or in the television series with that same title.]

1993- Tupac's Hip Hop record Keep Ya Head Up
The first two lines of that rap are:
Some say the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice
I say the darker the flesh then the deeper the roots"
Click for a pancocojams post on this rap.

Here's a response to a question page about the second line of that rap:
"The darker the flesh then the deeper the roots? What do you think this means?" [The question and all responses are from 2008.]
"he was talkin about black people..."the darker you are the closer you are to your ancestors"...the darker the flesh(skin) then the deeper the roots(where it began, ancestors),"
The responder alludes to Tupac's "Keep Ya Head Up" rap. The only other commenter who answered this, a blogger using the tag name "The Evil Genius", wrote "the darker your flesh is the closer you are to your ancestors."
It's important to recognize that Tupac's "the darker the flesh, the deeper the roots" can be considered an expression of colorism, i.e. thinking that darker skinned people have more roots (or recognize and honor their roots-for instance their "blackness"- more than light skinned black people. That's significant because in the late 1960s and 1970s some afrocentric Black people accused light skinned Black people of not being "as black" as brown skinned or darker brown skinned Black people. And in 2008 some Black Americans labeled then candidate for US President Barack Obama as being "not Black enough" because he was mixed race and had no slave ancestors.

Usually colorism is thought of as people favoring light skinned people over dark skinned people, but being prejudiced against a person of color because of their light complexion is also a type of colorism.

January 27, 1995 - The Sweeter the Juice: A Family Memoir in Black and White by Shirlee Taylor Haizlip (Author)
"The Sweeter the Juice is a provocative memoir that goes to the heart of our American identity. Shirlee Taylor Haizlip, in an effort to reconcile the dissonance between her black persona and her undeniably multiracial heritage, started on a journey of discovery that took her over thousands of miles and hundreds of years. While searching for her mother's family, Haizlip confronted the deeply intertwined but often suppressed tensions between race and skin color.

We are drawn in by the story of an African-American family. Some members chose to "cross over" and "pass" for white while others enjoyed a successful black life. Their stories weave a tale of tangled ancestry, mixed blood, and identity issues from the 17th century to the present. The Sweeter the Juice is a memoir, a social history, a biography, and an autobiography. Haizlip gives to us the quintessential American story, unveiling truths about race, about our society, and about the ways in which we all perceive and judge one another."

1995 "blacker the berry" is part of an exchange in the movie Friday
Friday” [1995]
This line is spoken in an exchange between two Black young men [the character played by Ice Cube and the character played by Chris Tucker] after watching a young, dark skin Black woman jog past them.

The character played by Chris Tucker says "The older the berry the sweeter the juice" and the character played by Ice Cube corrected him saying "It’s blacker the berry the sweeter the juice”.
Warning: This exchange includes profanity.

2002- The song "Run Tell That!" from the 2002 Broadway show Hairspray
"Hairspray is an American musical with music by Marc Shaiman, lyrics by Scott Wittman and Shaiman and a book by Mark O'Donnell and Thomas Meehan, based on the 1988 John Waters film Hairspray. The songs include 1960s-style dance music and "downtown" rhythm and blues. In 1962 Baltimore, Maryland, plump teenager Tracy Turnblad's dream is to dance on The Corny Collins Show, a local TV dance program based on the real-life Buddy Deane Show.[1] When Tracy wins a role on the show, she becomes a celebrity overnight, and meets a colorful array of characters. She then launches a campaign to integrate the show. Hairspray is a social commentary on the injustices of parts of American society in the 1960s...

The musical's original Broadway production opened on August 15, 2002."
Excerpt of the song "Run Tell That!"
[singer: Black male character "Seeweed"
I can't see
Why people look at me
And only see the color of my face

And then there's those
That try to help, god knows
But have to always put me in my place

Now i won't ask you to be color blind
'Cause if you pick the fruit
Then girl, you're sure to find...

The blacker the berry
The sweeter the juice

I could say it ain't so
But darlin', what's the use?

The darker the chocolate
The richer the taste
And that's where it's at... run and tell that!!

Run and tell that!

Click for a video clip of "Hairspray - Run And Tell That (with subtitles)"
I believe that the lines quoted above from the song "Run Tell That!" from the 2002 Broadway show Hairspray mark the beginning of the sexualization of the saying "the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice". Prior to that among Black people the saying served as an affirmation about the desirability of dark skinned females.

Another meaning that I've read online* that has been given to "the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice is that it refers to things or people getting better with age. I don't think that was what most Black Americans meant when we use that saying (prior to that song). That meaning is also alluded to in Kendrick Lamar's 2015 Hip Hop record that is highlighted below.

*Here are responses from a question pages about the meaning of "the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice":
"What does this old saying mean the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice?" [The question and all of the responses are from 2008]

"It means that Things improve with age"
"isn't it obvious? Look at a berry, when it is darker in color it tastes better becuase it has ripened. The more "ripened" the berry the better it tastes.."

♥Slim Diva♥™
"It refers to black women too. Whoo hoo!!!!!"

2006 - Field Mob - "Blacker The Berry" [Rap song] in the album Light Poles And Pine Trees

In this song the rapper recollects his experiences and how he felt growing up being very dark skinned. This song includes the "blacker the berry" hook from Tupac's song "Keep Your Head Up".

There's one use of profanity in these lyrics [the word "sh&t"].

Apr 22, 2011 by Ableals - Jimmy Black - Blacker The Berry The Sweeter The Juice hip hop rap music video [video publishing date; This probably isn't the date that this song was released. I don't have any other information about this song.

February 2015 Kendrick Lamar [Hip Hop] - The Blacker The Berry
WARNING: This song contains profanity, sexually explicit language, and the use of a form of the n word.

"Kendrick Lamar's Grammy wins are further proof that he's undoubtedly one of the best artists in the rap game right now, but his latest work also shows that the 27-year-old is using his talent and status in the industry to deliver messages that matter.

The Compton rapper dropped a fiery new single on Monday titled "The Blacker the Berry" (inspired by the old saying "the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice," which was also famously used in Tupac Shakur's "Keep Your Head Up"), and not only does it have a crushing beat that inevitably causes you to head-nod for five minutes straight, but each lyric is laced with a powerful and emotional response to the ongoing race and violence issues in America.

Combine that with Kendrick's aggressive and passionate delivery, and you have a musical gem that evokes the frustrations and thoughts of protesters in the streets after the tragic killings of Trayvon Martin, Mike Brown, Eric Garner and other victims.”

Lyric excerpt from

The blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice
The blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice
The blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice
The blacker the berry, the bigger I shoot

[Hook: Assassin]
I said they treat me like a slave, cah' me black
Woi, we feel a whole heap of pain, cah' we black
And man a say they put me inna chains, cah' we black
Imagine now, big gold chains full of rocks
How you no see the whip, left scars pon' me back
But now we have a big whip parked pon' the block
All them say we doomed from the start, cah' we black
Remember this, every race start from the black*, jus 'member dat
*Correction from a commenter [The onsite transcriber of those lyrics had written “block” instead of "black", but I agree that the word "black" is a much better fit for the meaning of that verse.]

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  1. Yes, you're missing one. Pam Grier's character says "the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice" in her starring role in Foxy Brown.

    1. Thanks for sharing that example, Unknown.

      I appreciate it!

  2. Replies
    1. Thanks for sharing that information with us, Unknown.

  3. My Mama Dot asked me if I knew the rest of the quote "The Blacker the Berry the sweeter the juice" I hadn't so she said, "The Blacker the Berry the Sweeter the juice I got a Black Man for my own personal use"...I have researched this quote today and learned so much about the origins.
    Wallace Thurmond's book "The Blacker the Berry: A story of Negro life 1929

    “Some say, “The blacker the berry the sweeter the juice.” I say, the darker the flesh, the deeper the roots.”- Tupac Shakur Not racist. Its a compliment. It implies that darker skin is more close to its roots and rich history.

    "The Sweeter the Juice" is a provocative memoir that goes to the heart of our American identity. Shirlee Taylor Haizlip.

    I found more references but none about my Mama Dot's (my Maternal Grandmother)quote.

    1. The above was written by me, Donna Sue Johnson, I was born the same day my Maternal Grandfather died, September 5, 1956. I am a retired Social Worker with a LCSW. I am facinated by my Black History and love learning more each day.
      Peace be unto you

    2. Greetings, Donna Sue Johnson.

      I'm re-reading this post and its comments as a result of a new comment that it received today and I realize that I didn't thank you for the information about Shirlee Taylor Haizlip's 1995 book "The Sweeter The Juice". I'll add that to an updated version of this post.

      Also, I'm wondering if you are working on your book about your family. I hope you will publish it in some form or the other.

      Best wishes to you!

  4. This is Donna Sue Johnson, My "Mama Dot" Dorothy T. Gibson my Maternal Grandmother; married Charles F. Gibson,MD. My Grandfather was a physician, he died from tuberculosis from house calls treating folks with TB, and he died the same day I was born September 5, 1956.They raised 2 daughters Sue and Beverly. Sue had 2 children, me and my brother Charles. Aunt Bobby (as a kid I couldn't say Beverly)raised 3; Duane, Mike and Glenn.
    I would love to write a book about my family history! These comments inspire me to write that book.
    Peace be unto you.

    1. Donna Sue Johnson, thanks for sharing the saying "The Blacker the Berry the Sweeter the juice/ I got a Black Man for my own personal use".

      I've never come across the second part at that saying before.

      I hope that you write and publish a book about your family history. It certainly sounds as if it would be interesting and rich with cultural material.

      Bless up!

  5. I've been doing some work transcribing old "race records" (as they were called at the time) that Paramount Records released back in the 1920s and 30s, and I've stumbled across one you might be interested in. Look up "Black Man Blues" by Edmonia Henderson; the opening line is "Blacker the berry, sweeter the juice." Recorded in December of 1923.

    1. Thanks, Anonymous for sharing information about Edmonia Henderson's song "Black Man Blues".

      I see I'm going to have to update this post's time line for that saying.

      Here's a link to a sound file of that song

      Thanks again. Best wishes on your research! Please feel free to share transcriptions or other info that you find by writing me at azizip17 at yahoo dot com

  6. Hi Azizi, “the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice” is quoted as a saying in the St. Mary's [Kansas] _Journal_, 12/17/1896.

    1. Hello, Joseph.

      Thanks for sharing that information about that early date for the saying "the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice."

      I had to look up the reference you cited. Here's some information for others who (like me) might not be familiar with St. Mary's [Kansas] Journal:

      About this Newspaper
      St. Mary's Journal (St. Marys, Kan.) 1894-1908
      Other Title
      Saint Mary's journal
      Of Publication
      Created / Published
      St. Marys, Kan. : Graham & Cooper, 1894-1908.
      Subject Headings
      - United States--Kansas--Pottawatomie--St. Marys
      - Weekly, June 11, 1896-Sept. 25, 1908
      - Vol. 1, no. 1 (June 7, 1894)-v. 15, no. 17 (Sept. 25, 1908).
      - Published by: Graham Pub. Co., Aug. 2, 1894-Jan. 14, 1898; John J. Graham, Jan. 21, 1898-Sept. 25, 1908."...


      I tried to look up that page of that newspaper online to find out the context in which that saying was used, but I didn't know how to do it. Any additional information that you have about how this saying was used in that newspaper would be appreciated.

      Best wishes!

  7. "Some say the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice" is a lyric from Pete Rock & C.L. Smooth's 1992 song 'Lot's of Lovin.

  8. Trick daddy 2005 -
    Orally, I speak the truth
    Cuz the blacker the berry
    The sweeter the juice
    Cuz, Florida oranges and Georgia peaches
    When they nice and ripe, they the best for eatin'
    Southern boys we crave for old slice of pie after they main course

    1. The song is called Sugar (On my tongue)

    2. Anonymous, thanks for adding that quote of 'the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice" lyrics from rapper Trick Daddy's 2005 song "Sugar (On my tongue) song.

      Apparently, this widely known African American saying has been used by us in a number of music genres for some time-which is another reason why it is so well known.