Edited by Azizi Powell
This post is a continuation of pancocojams' series on the Old Time Music song "Shout Lulu". It contains additional comments about & text examples of "Shout Lula". This post also includes a video of the group Freight Hoppers performance of "Shout Little Lula". The addendum to this post showcases a video of a version of the related song "Hook And Line" performed by Joe Thompson & Odell Thompson.
The content of this post is presented for folkloric, cultural, and educational purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
****
TEXT EXAMPLES & COMMENT ABOUT "SHOUT LULA" SONGS
These examples are posted in chronological order with the oldest dated comments given first.
Two comments from https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.country.old-time/ATTT1UtigL8
posted by Oldtime1 (Joe Wilson) 5/29/97
"Little Lula/Lulu/Lulie
"Paul asked if there are two Lulu songs. Yes. The "Bang Away Lulu" lyric he quoted is not at all like "Shout Lulu.
When I interviewed G. B. Grayson's oldest daughter, Lilly Grayson Sturdivant, in 1972 near Rising Sun, MD (with Ken Irwin and Marian Leighton), she told about his compositions. She said he did not write "Shout Lulu" and that she thought it was "an old song." If it was old when Grayson recorded it in the late 1920s, it may be from minstrelsy. It certainly has the feel and rhythm of a minstrel song:
"Takes a nickle, takes a dime, To see Little Luly, cut a shine." Has anyone checked minstrel texts?"
**
posted by George Conklin (Durham, NC) 5/25/97
..."I also asked Gary [Reid] about Shout Lula, which he always
introduces as the first song his mother ever taught him,
right there on Smith Ridge, and play sit clawhammer style.
Ok, but his mother apparently did NOT teach him the words,
which he got from Reid's 78. Those words include"
It Takes a Nickel
It takes a Dime
To see little Lully's
Body Shine
Ok, so who is Lula? What was the origin of the song? No of
us knows. Gary thought only Dick Spottswood might know, but
do any of you? Was she a prostitute? What words did
Grayson and Whitter NOT record due to the restrictions of
the time?
-snip-
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/grayson-and-whitter-shout-lula-example.html for a example of "Shout Lula" performed by Grayson and Whitter.
****
Three comments from http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=53820 "Lyr Req: Hook and Line (and related songs)"
WARNING: Some comments & some lyrics that are found in that very informative discussion include the fully spelled out "n word". However, none of the comments re-posted below have that content.
posted by Richie; Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:55 PM
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=53820
"From Ceolas: A Fiddler's Companion
SHOUT LULU. AKA - "Shout Lula," "Shout Lou," "Shout Old Lulu." AKA and see "Hook and Line." Old-Time, Breakdown. USA; east Tenn., southwestern Va., north Georgia, north Carolina, Ohio. G Major. GDAD. AABB. Art Rosenbaum (1989) says "this song is much more current in the tradition than its absence from printed collections would suggest." A banjo piece and dance tune, it was the repertoires of Dock Boggs and John Dykes (of the Dykes Magic City Trio) under the title "Hook and Line." Rufus Crisp, Woody Wachtel, Roscoe Holcomb, Pete Steele, Ralph Stanley, and Fiddlin' Cowan Powers 1877-1952? (Russell County, southwest Va.) played it as well as Uncle John Patterson (Carroll County, Ga.), a sometimes Skillet Lickers hanger-on who learned to pick the tune on the banjo "on his mother's {champion banjoist Bessie Patterson} lap when he was three years old" (Rosenbaum)"
-snip-
In another comment to that thread Richie wrote "Since "Shout Lula" seems to related to blues and work "hollers" perhaps the "Lula" originally refers to Lula, Mississippi or the Lula women from that town."
**
From: Stewie; Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:51 AM
"Here is how I hear Uncle Dave's 'Just From Tennessee' - subject, as usual, to confirmation by other ears. I'm not certain of the 'eats greens' stanza, but the remainder should be pretty accurate.
JUST FROM TENNESSEE
Spoken: Hello folks, just as soon as I get the epiglottis and diaphonics of my throat cleared up a little, I'm gonna sing you a song. Now I'm gonna give you (a little of) the variations of 'Cotton-eyed Joe'.
Instrumental
Spoken: Hot dog! Ready and rarin' to go!
Listen, good people, to what I say
Just from Tennessee in my weavin'(?) way
Born(ed) in Warren County, raised in Tennessee
If you don't like my looks, don't look at me
Shout Lula, shout I say
Shout Lula, I'm gwine away
Whooo!
Shout Lula, shout I say
Shout Lula, I'm gwine away
Been to Muscle Shoals and I been to Beaver Dam
I've seen no place like Alabam
Shout Lula, shout I say
Shout Lula, I'm gwine away
I got a girl, says she's so tall
She sits in the parlour with her feet in the hall
Shout Lula, shout I say
Shout Lula, I'm gwine away
I got a girl, says she eats some greens
She shakes her wicked foot and she shakes it mean
Shout Lula, shout I say
Shout Lula, I'm gwine away
Coffee in the pot, there's sugar in the bowl
Papa won't eat without jelly roll
Shout Lula, shout I say
Shout Lula, I'm gwine away
Just one thing, and I don't understand
Why a bow-legged woman likes a pigeon-toed man
Shout Lula, shout I say
Shout Lula, I'm gwine away
Just one thing that makes me unhappy
I haven't got a daughter for to call me pappy
Shout Lula, shout I say
Shout Lula, I'm gwine away
Whooo!
Shout Lula, shout I say
Shout Lula, I'm gwine away
Whooo!
Source: transcription of Uncle Dave Macon 'Just From Tennessee' recorded on 13 April 1925 in NYC and issued as Vo 5075 in February 1927. Reissued on Uncle Dave Macon 'Early Recordings 1924-1925' Old Homestead OHCD 4184.
**
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hook and Line (and related songs)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:23 PM
HOOK AND LINE
Hook and line to catch a shad,
First think I caught was my old dad.
Pole broke and I got mad,
Right to the bottom went my old dad!
Shout a nickel, shout a dime,
Shout little Lulu any old time.
Shout little Lulu, shout your best,
Your old grandmother's in a hornet's nest!
(Spoken:) Yes sir!
Shout, shout, shout, shout!
What in hell are you shoutin' about?
Source: Old-Time Mountain Banjo (p. 11), by Art Rosenbaum
****
EDITORIAL COMMENT
It's very difficult to determine which came first-White minstrel versions of many "minstrel" songs or Black plantation lyrics & tunes for those songs. Like other Old Time tunes & songs, "Shout Lula" was known in Black American & non-Black American communities. This song almost certainly originated among African Americans, given the call & response pattern of some examples of "Shout Lula", its two line rhyming pattern, the inclusion of certain Black vernacular terms, and the floating verses that are also found in other African American originating old time songs.
Also, once a song was sung by Black faced minstrels [both White and Black minstrel performers, that song experienced the folk process of [additional] cross pollination from Black and from White populations.
****
WHAT "SHOUT" MAY MEAN IN THE SONG "SHOUT LULA"
Here's an explanation about the word "shout"
Subject: RE: Lyr. Req: Hook and Line
From:kytrad*
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 05:15 PM
This may be relevant...Bessie Jones and I used to share stages together, from early sixties into seventies, and we used to do play-party games- she'd sing hers and I'd sing one from our family that matched it. She had many "shout" songs, and always explained that the word, "shout" in a game or song meant, "dance." Younger members of her family and community would sometimes be with her, and as she sang they'd sing with her, clap hands and dance or "shout."
-snip-
*"kytrad" is the screen name for White American folk music singer, songwriter, and Appalachian dulcimer player Jean Ritchie (ngwriter, and Appalachian dulcimer player. Click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Ritchie for more information about Jean Ritchie.
Bessie Jones (February 8, 1902 - July 17, 1984) was an African American singer who is best known for forming & performing as soloist for the Georgia Sea Isle Singers, a group whose repertoire consists of Black old time secular & religious songs. Along with Bess Lomax Hawes, Bessie Jones co-authored a collection of Georgia Sea Isle children's recreational songs & rhymes entitled Step It Down. Click http://www.allmusic.com/artist/bessie-jones-mn0000051492/biography for more information about Bessie Jones.
****
SHOWCASE VIDEO: Freight Hoppers "Shout Little Lula" PIP 2010
Joanna Joseph, Uploaded on Oct 10, 2010
Says Frank Lee, "It's a good one to dance to; just let your conscience be your guide." Look at David Bass go!
The Freight Hoppers were headliners at Pickin' In the Pines Bluegrass & Acoustic Music Festival, held Sep 17-19, 2010, at the Pine Mt. Amphitheater in Flagstaff, AZ, organized by Flagstaff Friends of Traditional Music (FFOTM).
The Freight Hoppers
www.thefreighthoppers.com
-snip-
This video is given without a transcription.
****
ADDENDUM: ONE VIDEO OF THE OLD TIME SONG "HOOK AND LINE"
PineCone CD Release Preview: Hook and Line
NCArts, Uploaded on Oct 6, 2009
This a recording from the upcoming PineCone CD Release, "Going Down to Raleigh: Stringband Music in the North Carolina Piedmont 1976-1998," which features 48 old-time regional stringband dance tunes and songs highlighting some of the best traditional music of Piedmont region.
Hook and Line
Joe Thompson - fiddle and vocal, Odell Thompson - banjo and vocal. Recorded 1988 by Wayne Martin and Wes Lachot.
Joe Thompson (b. 1918) and Odell Thompson (1911-1994) were first cousins who grew up on farms near the Alamance-Orange County line north of Mebane. Family stories say that their grandfather, Robert, born into slavery on a Person County plantation, played the fiddle. His sons John Arch, Walter and Jacob played fiddle and banjo. Neighbors, both African American and white, called upon Walter and John Arch Thompson, to provide music for square dances.
As a boy, Odell chose a fiddle as a premium prize for selling forty packs of chewing gum. After playing the fiddle for several years, he gravitated to guitar after his older brother purchased one. Joe had also taken up fiddling at a young age and he and his brothers performed at Saturday-night dances with his father and uncle. He recalls taking his position in the doorway between rooms filled with dancing couples. "We were playing [four- and eight-hand square dance] sets—I was only seven years old. We had straight chairs and my feet couldn't touch the floor. And we were running them folks, man, a half an hour."
-snip-
This song includes the familiar verses to "The Crawdad Song".
****
Thanks to the unknown composers of "Shout Lula" and thanks to all the artists featured in this post for their musical legacy. Thanks also to all those who are quoted in this post.
Thank you for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
Showing posts with label old-time music. Show all posts
Showing posts with label old-time music. Show all posts
Sunday, October 20, 2013
Tuesday, October 15, 2013
Who Was The Lady With The Alligator Purse In The "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" Rhymes?
Edited by Azizi Powell
This is Part II of a three part pancocojams series on the playground rhyme which is called "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and other similar titles. In this post I present seven theories about the role played by the lady with the alligator purse in "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes.
With two exception, the quoted comments in this post are from two Mudcat Cafe discussion threads about this rhyme. The links to those posts are found below.
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/wikepedias-article-about-miss-lucy-had.htmlfor Part I of this series. In that post I critique the Wikipedia article about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby".
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/miss-lucy-had-baby-text-examples-videos.html for Part III of this series. That post features several variant text examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". Two videos of this rhyme are also featured on that post. That post also includes comments about the possible date of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby".
The content of this post is presented for folkloric and sociological purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
WARNING: Some of the content of this post might be considered inappropriate for young children.
PART II
A CONTEMPORARY EXAMPLE OF "MISS LUCY HAD A BABY"
Miss Molly had a baby,
The baby's name was Tim,
She put him in a bathtub,
To see if he could swim.
He ate up all the water,
He drank up all the soap,
He woulda ate the bathtub but it wouldn't fit his throat!
Miss Molly called the doctor,
Miss Molly called the nurse,
Miss Molly called the lady with the alligator purse!
Measles said the doctor,
Measles said the nurse,
Pizza said the lady with the alligator purse!
Miss Molly shot the doctor,
Miss Molly stabbed the nurse,
Miss Molly paid the lady with the alligator purse!
-Guest, http://www.mudcat.org/threads.cfm "Heigh Ho, Heigh Ho, I Bit the Teacher's Toe!"; April 13, 2005
****
THEORIES ABOUT THE IDENTITY & ROLE OF THE LADY WITH THE ALLIGATOR PURSE IN "MISS LUCY HAD A BABY" RHYMES
Note: There are LOTS of different examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". In some of those examples the woman who had a baby is named "Susie" or "Molly" or another female name. In other examples of this rhyme the baby who almost drowns in the bathtub is the brother of the person who is voicing the words of the rhyme. Furthermore, there are other examples of this rhyme in which the "baby" isn't a person but a puppy or a turtle. Other similarities & differences between versions of this rhyme are discussed in Part II of this series.
I'm assigning numbers to those quotes for referencing purposes, although they aren't placed in any order of preference - except that I've assigned my theory about this rhyme as #1 ;o)
1. Alligator Purse Carried By A Herbalist or Another Non-Establishment Health Practitioner
Here's a comment that I wrote on this Mudcat discussion thread:
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418
"Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Kids' songs: Miss Mary Mack & Miss L [hereafter given as Mudcat: Miss Mary Mack & Miss Lucy]
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:04 AM
"I am STILL trying to track down the meaning of reference to "alligator' in the "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" children's rhymes:
Miss Lucy called the Doctor
The doctor called the Nurse
The Nurse called the Lady with the Alligator Purse!
By happen chance I was reading a paperback historical romantic novel-yes I do read these sometimes :O)
And there was mention of a woman who was a herbalist who put her things in an alligator purse when she went to visit someone who was sick..I assumed that "alligator purse" meant a purse made out of alligator skin.
Could it be that an alligator purse was the 'signature' of an herbalist way back when? This would fit well with the central theme of Miss Lucy calling people associated with health care to help her with her baby who almost drowned.
BTW, Iona & Peter Opie mention what they call the strange reference in the USA to "the lady with the alligator purse' in this "Miss Lucy had a baby" rhyme but give no explanation of its origin or meaning.
I remember saying the alligator purse line during my childhood in Atlantic City, New Jersey in the 1950s."...
-snip-
This comment was also posted in 2005 on the Mudcat discussion thread http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418 "Folklore: Lady's alligator purse? Her own thread". That thread is hereafter given as "Mudcat: Alligator Purse".
Clearly Miss Lucy called one person after another to help treat her baby. When the doctor didn't give the right diagnose -or the diagnosis she wanted to hear- Miss Lucy called the nurse. And when the nurse didn't give the diagnosis Miss Lucy wanted to hear, Miss Lucy called the nurse. In most of the examples I've come across the doctor and the nurse didn't recommend the treatment that Miss Lucy wanted to hear, but she was happy with the treatment reecommended by the lady with the alligator purse.
My theory is that this rhyme differentiates between "establishment" healthcare practitioners [the doctor and the nurse] and the non-establishment health care practitioner [the lady with the alligator purse].
It's tempting to wonder if in the days when this rhyme was first composed* people trusted non-traditional health practitioners more than they did establishment health practitioners. Could this rhyme be a reflection of the concerns people had that doctors or nurses were trying to diagnosis serious conditions when the person feeling sick really wasn't that ill?
Some contemporary examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" include the line "Pizza! Said the lady with the alligator purse". The doctor in the 19th century song "Shortnin Bread" also recommends food for ailing children:
Three little children, lyin' in bed
Two was sick and the other 'most dead
Sent for the doctor and the doctor said,
"Feed those children on shortnin' bread."
Could the "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes reflect the suspicions of those times that doctors & nurses were trying to rip "common people" off, charging them money for medicine and treatment when all that the person needed was food?
Or could this rhyme reflect the desire that people have to minimize any illness they or their loved ones have, and/or reflect the desire that people have to hear that nothing is really wrong with them or their loved ones who appear to be ill. If "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes were first composed during epidemics of Diptheria as alluded to in "the bubble in the throat" phrase, people would certainly want to hear that their loved ones had nothing wrong with them rather than to hear that their loved ones had that once deadly disease.
*I haven't yet found any exact date for the earliest documented "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhyme. However, exaiming "Miss Lucy Had A Baby's sister rhyme "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" may provide clues about the probably dates for both of those rhymes. For instance,the line in "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" that goes "Hello Operator, give me #9" suggest that this rhyme was composed between 1878 and the 1920s as the 1920s was when direct dial telephones began in the United States. And since the steamboat era was in the later half of the 19th century, that fact also helps date the "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" rhymes.
Furthermore, 1902 is firmly established as the date of the earliest documented example of "Bang Bang Lulu" [which is "Miss Lucy Had A Baby"'s and "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat"'s "brother song"]. That date is well documented because one "Bang Bang Lulu" verse was included in the Western novel The Virginians which was published in 1902. Because the numerous "Lulu"/"Lula" songs are clearly the core source of those above mentioned rhymes & song, the 1870s or so composition dates also help calculate probable dates for those two playground rhymes.
The Diptheria epidemics in the United States which occured in the the late 1880s and the early 1900s might also have sparked the composition of the "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes.
More comments about the possible earliest date for "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" are found in Part III of this pancocojams series. More comments about the earliest dates for the composition of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" can be found in this pancocojams post: http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/similarities-differences-between-bang.html "Similarities & Differences Between "Bang Bang Lulu" & "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat".
2. Alligator Purse Routinely Carried By Social Workers
This is the position that appears to be held by the author of the Wikipedia article about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". I strongly disagree with most of that article, including the theory that the lady with the alligator purse is a social worker. Here are the reasons why I don't agree with that theory:
a. In "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes, the people are called to the home to diagnosis and physically attend to a person who is in physical distress. That isn't why social workers are called to a home. In many cases, social workers [or "child welfare workers"] come uninvited to a home to investigate alleged child neglect and/or child abuse.
b. In many examples of this rhyme, "Miss Lucy" treats the lady with the alligator purse better than she treats the doctor and the nurse. However, in most communities if a doctor or nurse came to a home, they would likely be treated with much more deference and respect than treatment social workers investigating alleged child abuse or child neglect would be treated. Those social workers are likely to be treated with suspicion and hopefully contained hostility. This isn't how the lady with the alligator purse is treated in those rhymes.
c. To date, I've not found any online documentation that social workers in the past or the present routinely carrying alligator bags as part of their professional "uniform". The two citations that were included in the above linked Wikipedia article are weak sources for reasons I indicated in Part I of this series.
3. Just A Woman Carrying A Purse; That word is used just for rhyming purposes
[Mudcat: Alligator Purse]
From:GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 12:55 PM
"Well, if you've ever tried to compose anything that rhymed, you've probably noticed that it's hard work. So here we have a bunch of kids trying to rhyme something with nurse. How many words rhyme with nurse? Not many.
purse
worse
disburse
disperse
curse
hearse
terse
verse
That's all I can think of. Now look at the list and see how many words can fit into a list of people (doctor - nurse - disburse? No.) Factor in the need for rhythm, and an alligator purse is just the ticket."
**
[Mudcat: Alligator Purse]
From:Azizi
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:02 PM
"But why an alligator purse?
Why don't these rhymes have any other type of purse or description of purses?
I don't know ,leeneia. Your explanation sounds too reasonable.
Maybe that's why it doesn't feel right to me.
[and you can read into that all you want, and you'd probably be right on the money]."
4. The Alligator Purse As Representative of American activist Susan B. Anthony
[Mudcat: Alligator Purse]
From:GUEST,Nancy Silverrod
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 12:30 PM
"I have been trying to verify a claim that the lady with the alligator purse was suffragist Susan B. Anthony who supposedly carried her speeches with her in an alligator purse. The claim is that this dates back to the California woman suffrage campaign of 1896, and that the last line is "Vote! said the lady with the alligator purse."
I have found this ending among the many variations, but, so far, nothing to link it to Susan B. Anthony"....
-snip-
For what it's worth, unlike this commenter, I've not found any examples of this rhyme with the line "Vote! said the lady with the alligator purse." And there doesn't appear to be any other documentation of this theory apart from The Susan B. Anthony House.
-snip-
Here's that comment from The Susan B. Anthony House http://susanbanthonyhouse.org/blog/alligator-purse-rhyme/
"The traveling champion of the women’s rights movement, Susan B. Anthony, was recognized by two trademarks: her red shawl and her alligator “purse.” You can see the famous alligator bag she carried across the United States and to Europe when you visit the Susan B. Anthony House at 17 Madison Street in Rochester, NY. You may recognize this children’s jump-rope rhyme that was recorded by the press when Anthony was campaigning for suffrage in California:
Miss Lulu had a baby, she called him tiny Tim.
She put him in the bathtub, so see if he could swim.
He drank up all the water! He ate up all the soap!
He tried to swallow the bathtub, but it wouldn’t go down his throat!!
Call for the doctor!
Call for the nurse!
Call for the lady with the alligator purse!
“Mumps!” said the doctor. “Measles!” said the nurse.
“Vote!!” said the lady with the alligator purse!!
Anthony used her alligator bag more like a briefcase or backpack than like a purse. In it, she carried her speeches and pamphlets, a copy of the transcript from her 1873 trial in which she was found guilty for having voted “illegally” in the 1872 federal election."
-snip-
It just occured to me that if there really is a 1873 newspaper article that includes this example of "Miss Lulu had a baby" then this would be the earliest documented version of that rhyme. As I wrote as a guest posting on that discussion thread in 2012:
"It might have been a coincidence that Susan B. Anthony's purse was made of alligator skin and there was a pre-existing line in a playground rhyme about "a lady with the alligator purse". And some enterprising, creative reporter could have made up the "vote said the lady with the alligator purse" version. Indeed, I think it's likely that that is what happened."
I'd love to know the name, date, and page number of that newspaper article that included an example of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" AND included a reference to the "lady with the alligator purse".
-snip-
Hat tip to Jon Corelis for his comments in that Mudcat post which questioned the connections between "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes and Susan B. Anthony.
5. The Alligator Purse As A Rich Woman's Accessory
[Mudcat: Miss Mary Mack & Miss Lucy]
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:56 PM
..."As I understand it, shoes (for men) and purses (for women) made from alligator leather were such a status symbol of wealth that it actually contributed to alligators being endangered -- much like ostrich plumes in ladies' hats.
I don't know if there were any magic or symbolic connection between alligators and herbalism, but it might be a clue that the herbalist in question was making a lot of money off her business, and that she wasn't just doing it out of the charity of her heart"...
-snip-
That theory doesn't explain how & why "Miss Lucy" knew to call the rich woman and why the woman was called came to the home to help the baby. However, here's a similar comment:
[Mudcat: Alligator Purse]
From:GUEST,Grishka
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 04:38 PM
What about the alligator purse being an attribute of wealth: expensive, fashionable, and presumably well-filled with cash? The child would be malnourished rather than ill, so that the philantropic rich lady is the only one who can help. "Pizza" has probably been patched in later, but may nevertheless convey the original meaning. Now you may ask why in some versions she is being paid instead of paying - that must be corruption (not of social welfare workers, but of folk verses).
Just a completely uneducated theory."
6.[Mudcat: Alligator Purse] UPDATE 10/16/2013
From:Jon Corelis
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 10:56 AM
I know this is an old thread, but since there's been continuing interest in it, I thought I'd add one piece of information which a search indicates hasn't been included before.
The rhyme occurs at a significant place in Alfred Hitchcock's film Marnie, where a group of girls skipping rope chants it in the following form:
"Mother, Mother, I am ill.
Send for the doctor over the hill.
Call for the doctor.
Call for the nurse.
Call for the lady
with the alligator purse.
Mumps said the doctor.
Measles said the nurse.
Nothing said the lady
with the alligator purse."
The lady, I think, is death.
-snip-
I disagreed with this commenter in that discussion thread & still disagree because in many examples of this rhyme that I have read, including the one given above, the lady with the alligator purse indicates that there's nothing wrong with the baby or recommends some beneficial treatment [such as "Pizza! said the lady with thee alligator purse".
7. A Woman Who Just Happened To Have An Alligator Purse
Maybe this lady was a neighbor of Miss Lucy's. Maybe she had all differnt types of purses, and just happened to carry her purse made out of alligator skin that day wheen she came to that house in response to Miss Lucy's call.
Although alligator purses were considered fashion accessories by wealthy women, maybe that woman in this rhyme wasn't rich. She could have received that purse from someone who caught that alligator, skinned it, and made that purse, and gave it to her as a gift. Maybe the lady with the alligator purse collected anything associated with alligators and had numerous replicas of alligators all throughout her house. Maybe she was known as "the alligator lady" throuhout her neighborhood. Maybe she also was the one who neighbors called when they needed help.
Maybe that's all that rhyme is about.
***
UPDATE: 10/16/2013
Here's a comment and examples from http://www.playgroundjungle.com/2009/12/how-miss-susie-and-tiny-tim-got-cleaner.html "How Miss Suzie and Tiny Tim got clean(er)"
..."Miss Suzie had a baby
she named it tiny Tim
she put it in the bathtub
to see if he could swim
he ate up all the water
he drank up all the soap
now he's home, sick in bed
with a frog in his throat.
She called for the doctor
she called for the nurse
she called for the lady with the alligator purse
mumps, said the doctor
mumps, said the nurse
nothing, said the lady with the alligator purse
"[There are] Plenty of variations of this [line from "Miss Lucy Had A Baby"] such as "he tried to eat the bathtub, but it wouldn't fit his throat." It's been sung in about that way since at least the 1920s in England, but it's actually a variation of a whole series of bawdy drinking songs about a prostitute name Lulu, according to Iona Opie's "The Singing Game." She sites one particular version:
Lulu had a baby, which was an awful shock
she couldn't call it Lulu cause the bastard had a____
You can guess the last word. By the 1920s, it had morphed into a rhyme set-up not unlike the "Steamboat" song:
Lulu Had a baby, she named it sunny Jim
she took it to the bathroom to see if it could swim
it swam to the bottom, it swam to the top
Lulu got excited, and grabbed it by the
cocktails, ginger ale, two and six a glass....
By the 1950s, the lady with the alligator purse was showing up in versions of the song. The "cocktails" line was still being recorded in England in 1950s, and in New York in the late 1970s, though in the states it morphed to "two bits a glass"...
By the 1950s, the lady with the alligator purse was showing up in versions of the song. The "cocktails" line was still being recorded in England in 1950s, and in New York in the late 1970s, though in the states it morphed to "two bits a glass"...
-end of quote-
If it's true that the lady with the alligator purse didn't show up in "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" until the 1950s, maybe those purses were a fashion statement during that time. I was a child in the 1950s, but I can't remember any fashion trends -except patent leather Mary Jane shoes for girls.
****
My thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
Thank you for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
This is Part II of a three part pancocojams series on the playground rhyme which is called "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and other similar titles. In this post I present seven theories about the role played by the lady with the alligator purse in "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes.
With two exception, the quoted comments in this post are from two Mudcat Cafe discussion threads about this rhyme. The links to those posts are found below.
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/wikepedias-article-about-miss-lucy-had.htmlfor Part I of this series. In that post I critique the Wikipedia article about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby".
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/miss-lucy-had-baby-text-examples-videos.html for Part III of this series. That post features several variant text examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". Two videos of this rhyme are also featured on that post. That post also includes comments about the possible date of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby".
The content of this post is presented for folkloric and sociological purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
WARNING: Some of the content of this post might be considered inappropriate for young children.
PART II
A CONTEMPORARY EXAMPLE OF "MISS LUCY HAD A BABY"
Miss Molly had a baby,
The baby's name was Tim,
She put him in a bathtub,
To see if he could swim.
He ate up all the water,
He drank up all the soap,
He woulda ate the bathtub but it wouldn't fit his throat!
Miss Molly called the doctor,
Miss Molly called the nurse,
Miss Molly called the lady with the alligator purse!
Measles said the doctor,
Measles said the nurse,
Pizza said the lady with the alligator purse!
Miss Molly shot the doctor,
Miss Molly stabbed the nurse,
Miss Molly paid the lady with the alligator purse!
-Guest, http://www.mudcat.org/threads.cfm "Heigh Ho, Heigh Ho, I Bit the Teacher's Toe!"; April 13, 2005
****
THEORIES ABOUT THE IDENTITY & ROLE OF THE LADY WITH THE ALLIGATOR PURSE IN "MISS LUCY HAD A BABY" RHYMES
Note: There are LOTS of different examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". In some of those examples the woman who had a baby is named "Susie" or "Molly" or another female name. In other examples of this rhyme the baby who almost drowns in the bathtub is the brother of the person who is voicing the words of the rhyme. Furthermore, there are other examples of this rhyme in which the "baby" isn't a person but a puppy or a turtle. Other similarities & differences between versions of this rhyme are discussed in Part II of this series.
I'm assigning numbers to those quotes for referencing purposes, although they aren't placed in any order of preference - except that I've assigned my theory about this rhyme as #1 ;o)
1. Alligator Purse Carried By A Herbalist or Another Non-Establishment Health Practitioner
Here's a comment that I wrote on this Mudcat discussion thread:
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418
"Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Kids' songs: Miss Mary Mack & Miss L [hereafter given as Mudcat: Miss Mary Mack & Miss Lucy]
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:04 AM
"I am STILL trying to track down the meaning of reference to "alligator' in the "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" children's rhymes:
Miss Lucy called the Doctor
The doctor called the Nurse
The Nurse called the Lady with the Alligator Purse!
By happen chance I was reading a paperback historical romantic novel-yes I do read these sometimes :O)
And there was mention of a woman who was a herbalist who put her things in an alligator purse when she went to visit someone who was sick..I assumed that "alligator purse" meant a purse made out of alligator skin.
Could it be that an alligator purse was the 'signature' of an herbalist way back when? This would fit well with the central theme of Miss Lucy calling people associated with health care to help her with her baby who almost drowned.
BTW, Iona & Peter Opie mention what they call the strange reference in the USA to "the lady with the alligator purse' in this "Miss Lucy had a baby" rhyme but give no explanation of its origin or meaning.
I remember saying the alligator purse line during my childhood in Atlantic City, New Jersey in the 1950s."...
-snip-
This comment was also posted in 2005 on the Mudcat discussion thread http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418 "Folklore: Lady's alligator purse? Her own thread". That thread is hereafter given as "Mudcat: Alligator Purse".
Clearly Miss Lucy called one person after another to help treat her baby. When the doctor didn't give the right diagnose -or the diagnosis she wanted to hear- Miss Lucy called the nurse. And when the nurse didn't give the diagnosis Miss Lucy wanted to hear, Miss Lucy called the nurse. In most of the examples I've come across the doctor and the nurse didn't recommend the treatment that Miss Lucy wanted to hear, but she was happy with the treatment reecommended by the lady with the alligator purse.
My theory is that this rhyme differentiates between "establishment" healthcare practitioners [the doctor and the nurse] and the non-establishment health care practitioner [the lady with the alligator purse].
It's tempting to wonder if in the days when this rhyme was first composed* people trusted non-traditional health practitioners more than they did establishment health practitioners. Could this rhyme be a reflection of the concerns people had that doctors or nurses were trying to diagnosis serious conditions when the person feeling sick really wasn't that ill?
Some contemporary examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" include the line "Pizza! Said the lady with the alligator purse". The doctor in the 19th century song "Shortnin Bread" also recommends food for ailing children:
Three little children, lyin' in bed
Two was sick and the other 'most dead
Sent for the doctor and the doctor said,
"Feed those children on shortnin' bread."
Could the "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes reflect the suspicions of those times that doctors & nurses were trying to rip "common people" off, charging them money for medicine and treatment when all that the person needed was food?
Or could this rhyme reflect the desire that people have to minimize any illness they or their loved ones have, and/or reflect the desire that people have to hear that nothing is really wrong with them or their loved ones who appear to be ill. If "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes were first composed during epidemics of Diptheria as alluded to in "the bubble in the throat" phrase, people would certainly want to hear that their loved ones had nothing wrong with them rather than to hear that their loved ones had that once deadly disease.
*I haven't yet found any exact date for the earliest documented "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhyme. However, exaiming "Miss Lucy Had A Baby's sister rhyme "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" may provide clues about the probably dates for both of those rhymes. For instance,the line in "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" that goes "Hello Operator, give me #9" suggest that this rhyme was composed between 1878 and the 1920s as the 1920s was when direct dial telephones began in the United States. And since the steamboat era was in the later half of the 19th century, that fact also helps date the "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" rhymes.
Furthermore, 1902 is firmly established as the date of the earliest documented example of "Bang Bang Lulu" [which is "Miss Lucy Had A Baby"'s and "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat"'s "brother song"]. That date is well documented because one "Bang Bang Lulu" verse was included in the Western novel The Virginians which was published in 1902. Because the numerous "Lulu"/"Lula" songs are clearly the core source of those above mentioned rhymes & song, the 1870s or so composition dates also help calculate probable dates for those two playground rhymes.
The Diptheria epidemics in the United States which occured in the the late 1880s and the early 1900s might also have sparked the composition of the "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes.
More comments about the possible earliest date for "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" are found in Part III of this pancocojams series. More comments about the earliest dates for the composition of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" can be found in this pancocojams post: http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/similarities-differences-between-bang.html "Similarities & Differences Between "Bang Bang Lulu" & "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat".
2. Alligator Purse Routinely Carried By Social Workers
This is the position that appears to be held by the author of the Wikipedia article about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". I strongly disagree with most of that article, including the theory that the lady with the alligator purse is a social worker. Here are the reasons why I don't agree with that theory:
a. In "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes, the people are called to the home to diagnosis and physically attend to a person who is in physical distress. That isn't why social workers are called to a home. In many cases, social workers [or "child welfare workers"] come uninvited to a home to investigate alleged child neglect and/or child abuse.
b. In many examples of this rhyme, "Miss Lucy" treats the lady with the alligator purse better than she treats the doctor and the nurse. However, in most communities if a doctor or nurse came to a home, they would likely be treated with much more deference and respect than treatment social workers investigating alleged child abuse or child neglect would be treated. Those social workers are likely to be treated with suspicion and hopefully contained hostility. This isn't how the lady with the alligator purse is treated in those rhymes.
c. To date, I've not found any online documentation that social workers in the past or the present routinely carrying alligator bags as part of their professional "uniform". The two citations that were included in the above linked Wikipedia article are weak sources for reasons I indicated in Part I of this series.
3. Just A Woman Carrying A Purse; That word is used just for rhyming purposes
[Mudcat: Alligator Purse]
From:GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 12:55 PM
"Well, if you've ever tried to compose anything that rhymed, you've probably noticed that it's hard work. So here we have a bunch of kids trying to rhyme something with nurse. How many words rhyme with nurse? Not many.
purse
worse
disburse
disperse
curse
hearse
terse
verse
That's all I can think of. Now look at the list and see how many words can fit into a list of people (doctor - nurse - disburse? No.) Factor in the need for rhythm, and an alligator purse is just the ticket."
**
[Mudcat: Alligator Purse]
From:Azizi
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:02 PM
"But why an alligator purse?
Why don't these rhymes have any other type of purse or description of purses?
I don't know ,leeneia. Your explanation sounds too reasonable.
Maybe that's why it doesn't feel right to me.
[and you can read into that all you want, and you'd probably be right on the money]."
4. The Alligator Purse As Representative of American activist Susan B. Anthony
[Mudcat: Alligator Purse]
From:GUEST,Nancy Silverrod
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 12:30 PM
"I have been trying to verify a claim that the lady with the alligator purse was suffragist Susan B. Anthony who supposedly carried her speeches with her in an alligator purse. The claim is that this dates back to the California woman suffrage campaign of 1896, and that the last line is "Vote! said the lady with the alligator purse."
I have found this ending among the many variations, but, so far, nothing to link it to Susan B. Anthony"....
-snip-
For what it's worth, unlike this commenter, I've not found any examples of this rhyme with the line "Vote! said the lady with the alligator purse." And there doesn't appear to be any other documentation of this theory apart from The Susan B. Anthony House.
-snip-
Here's that comment from The Susan B. Anthony House http://susanbanthonyhouse.org/blog/alligator-purse-rhyme/
"The traveling champion of the women’s rights movement, Susan B. Anthony, was recognized by two trademarks: her red shawl and her alligator “purse.” You can see the famous alligator bag she carried across the United States and to Europe when you visit the Susan B. Anthony House at 17 Madison Street in Rochester, NY. You may recognize this children’s jump-rope rhyme that was recorded by the press when Anthony was campaigning for suffrage in California:
Miss Lulu had a baby, she called him tiny Tim.
She put him in the bathtub, so see if he could swim.
He drank up all the water! He ate up all the soap!
He tried to swallow the bathtub, but it wouldn’t go down his throat!!
Call for the doctor!
Call for the nurse!
Call for the lady with the alligator purse!
“Mumps!” said the doctor. “Measles!” said the nurse.
“Vote!!” said the lady with the alligator purse!!
Anthony used her alligator bag more like a briefcase or backpack than like a purse. In it, she carried her speeches and pamphlets, a copy of the transcript from her 1873 trial in which she was found guilty for having voted “illegally” in the 1872 federal election."
-snip-
It just occured to me that if there really is a 1873 newspaper article that includes this example of "Miss Lulu had a baby" then this would be the earliest documented version of that rhyme. As I wrote as a guest posting on that discussion thread in 2012:
"It might have been a coincidence that Susan B. Anthony's purse was made of alligator skin and there was a pre-existing line in a playground rhyme about "a lady with the alligator purse". And some enterprising, creative reporter could have made up the "vote said the lady with the alligator purse" version. Indeed, I think it's likely that that is what happened."
I'd love to know the name, date, and page number of that newspaper article that included an example of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" AND included a reference to the "lady with the alligator purse".
-snip-
Hat tip to Jon Corelis for his comments in that Mudcat post which questioned the connections between "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes and Susan B. Anthony.
5. The Alligator Purse As A Rich Woman's Accessory
[Mudcat: Miss Mary Mack & Miss Lucy]
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:56 PM
..."As I understand it, shoes (for men) and purses (for women) made from alligator leather were such a status symbol of wealth that it actually contributed to alligators being endangered -- much like ostrich plumes in ladies' hats.
I don't know if there were any magic or symbolic connection between alligators and herbalism, but it might be a clue that the herbalist in question was making a lot of money off her business, and that she wasn't just doing it out of the charity of her heart"...
-snip-
That theory doesn't explain how & why "Miss Lucy" knew to call the rich woman and why the woman was called came to the home to help the baby. However, here's a similar comment:
[Mudcat: Alligator Purse]
From:GUEST,Grishka
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 04:38 PM
What about the alligator purse being an attribute of wealth: expensive, fashionable, and presumably well-filled with cash? The child would be malnourished rather than ill, so that the philantropic rich lady is the only one who can help. "Pizza" has probably been patched in later, but may nevertheless convey the original meaning. Now you may ask why in some versions she is being paid instead of paying - that must be corruption (not of social welfare workers, but of folk verses).
Just a completely uneducated theory."
6.[Mudcat: Alligator Purse] UPDATE 10/16/2013
From:Jon Corelis
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 10:56 AM
I know this is an old thread, but since there's been continuing interest in it, I thought I'd add one piece of information which a search indicates hasn't been included before.
The rhyme occurs at a significant place in Alfred Hitchcock's film Marnie, where a group of girls skipping rope chants it in the following form:
"Mother, Mother, I am ill.
Send for the doctor over the hill.
Call for the doctor.
Call for the nurse.
Call for the lady
with the alligator purse.
Mumps said the doctor.
Measles said the nurse.
Nothing said the lady
with the alligator purse."
The lady, I think, is death.
-snip-
I disagreed with this commenter in that discussion thread & still disagree because in many examples of this rhyme that I have read, including the one given above, the lady with the alligator purse indicates that there's nothing wrong with the baby or recommends some beneficial treatment [such as "Pizza! said the lady with thee alligator purse".
7. A Woman Who Just Happened To Have An Alligator Purse
Maybe this lady was a neighbor of Miss Lucy's. Maybe she had all differnt types of purses, and just happened to carry her purse made out of alligator skin that day wheen she came to that house in response to Miss Lucy's call.
Although alligator purses were considered fashion accessories by wealthy women, maybe that woman in this rhyme wasn't rich. She could have received that purse from someone who caught that alligator, skinned it, and made that purse, and gave it to her as a gift. Maybe the lady with the alligator purse collected anything associated with alligators and had numerous replicas of alligators all throughout her house. Maybe she was known as "the alligator lady" throuhout her neighborhood. Maybe she also was the one who neighbors called when they needed help.
Maybe that's all that rhyme is about.
***
UPDATE: 10/16/2013
Here's a comment and examples from http://www.playgroundjungle.com/2009/12/how-miss-susie-and-tiny-tim-got-cleaner.html "How Miss Suzie and Tiny Tim got clean(er)"
..."Miss Suzie had a baby
she named it tiny Tim
she put it in the bathtub
to see if he could swim
he ate up all the water
he drank up all the soap
now he's home, sick in bed
with a frog in his throat.
She called for the doctor
she called for the nurse
she called for the lady with the alligator purse
mumps, said the doctor
mumps, said the nurse
nothing, said the lady with the alligator purse
"[There are] Plenty of variations of this [line from "Miss Lucy Had A Baby"] such as "he tried to eat the bathtub, but it wouldn't fit his throat." It's been sung in about that way since at least the 1920s in England, but it's actually a variation of a whole series of bawdy drinking songs about a prostitute name Lulu, according to Iona Opie's "The Singing Game." She sites one particular version:
Lulu had a baby, which was an awful shock
she couldn't call it Lulu cause the bastard had a____
You can guess the last word. By the 1920s, it had morphed into a rhyme set-up not unlike the "Steamboat" song:
Lulu Had a baby, she named it sunny Jim
she took it to the bathroom to see if it could swim
it swam to the bottom, it swam to the top
Lulu got excited, and grabbed it by the
cocktails, ginger ale, two and six a glass....
By the 1950s, the lady with the alligator purse was showing up in versions of the song. The "cocktails" line was still being recorded in England in 1950s, and in New York in the late 1970s, though in the states it morphed to "two bits a glass"...
By the 1950s, the lady with the alligator purse was showing up in versions of the song. The "cocktails" line was still being recorded in England in 1950s, and in New York in the late 1970s, though in the states it morphed to "two bits a glass"...
-end of quote-
If it's true that the lady with the alligator purse didn't show up in "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" until the 1950s, maybe those purses were a fashion statement during that time. I was a child in the 1950s, but I can't remember any fashion trends -except patent leather Mary Jane shoes for girls.
****
My thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
Thank you for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
Wikipedia's Article About "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" Is A BIG Fail
Edited by Azizi Powell
[Editor's comments was slightly revised onDecember 28, 2018.
Note that the Wikipedia article on "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" that I read on December 28, 2018 isn't the same as the page that I'm critiquing in this pancocojams post. For example, the December 28, 2018 version doesn't include what I believe is an erroneous statement that "Miss Lucy" (similar to Miss Suzy), is the name of an American schoolyard rhyme and clapping game in which emancipated African American culture is mocked."
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This is Part I of a three part series on the playground rhyme which is called "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and other similar titles. In this post I critique the Wikipedia article about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby".
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/who-was-lady-in-alligator-purse.html for Part II of this series. In Part II I present five theories about the role played by the lady with the alligator purse in "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes. Comments from two Mudcat Cafe discussion threads about this rhyme are reposted to present these theories.
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/miss-lucy-had-baby-text-examples-videos.html for Part III of this series. That post features several variant text examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". Two videos of this rhyme are also featured on this post. That post also includes comments about the possible date of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby".
PART I
This post serves as a critique of the Wikipedia article on "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" that I read on October 14, 2013. All quotes from that article were retrieved on that date. Note that I'm aware from a comment in a box which prefaces that Wikipedia article dated June 2013 that "This article possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research may be removed."
I've chosen to write this blog post rather than using the format Wikipedia presents, partly because I prefer writing on this blog and partly because I tried but can't figure out Wikipedia's format for critiquing and suggesting changes in existing articles.
Prior to beginning this critique, I'm showcasing a rather "standard" example of "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat".
The content of this post is presented for folkloric and sociological purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
****
EXAMPLE OF "MISS LUCY HAD A BABY"
Note: There are LOTS of different examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". In some of those examples the woman who had a baby is named "Susie" or "Molly" or another female name. In other examples of this rhyme the baby who almost drowns in the bathtub is the brother of the person who is voicing the words of the rhyme. Furthermore, there are other examples of this rhyme in which the "baby" isn't a person but a puppy. Other similarities & differences between versions of this rhyme are discussed in Part II of this series.
Here's one text example of this rhyme from http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081031194743AAQf7oV "Miss Susie had a baby..." How does the song/rhyme go?".
Miss Susie had a bady She named him Tiny Tim
She put him in a bathtub To see if he could swim
He drank up all the water He ate up all the soap
He tried to eat the bathtub But it wouldn't fit down his throat
Miss Lucy called the doctor
The Doctor call the nurse
The Nurse called the lady
With the alligator purse.
In walked the doctor.
In walked the nurse
In walked the lady
With the alligator purse.
"Measles," said the doctor.
"Mumps," said the nurse.
"Nothing," said the lady
With the alligator purse.
Miss Lucy kicked the doctor.
Miss Lucy punched the nurse.
Miss Lucy paid the lady
With the alligator purse.
-Chyna114, 2008
-snip-
That page features additional examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and examples of "Miss Susie Had A Steamboat". The playground rhymes "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and "Miss Susie Had A Steamboat" both come from the same "Lula Gal" Old Time Music sources. Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/grayson-and-whitter-shout-lula-example.html for my comment about the sources for those playground rhymes.
****
EDITORIAL COMMENTS
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Lucy_had_a_baby
The statements from that article are presented in italics and my comments about those quotes are presented below those particular quotes. I'm assigning numbers to those quotes for referencing purposes.
1."Miss Lucy" (similar to Miss Suzy), is the name of an American schoolyard rhyme and clapping game in which emancipated African American culture is mocked.
I assume that by "emancipated African American culture" the author of this article means the way African Americans lived post-United States slavery. The author doesn't explain how this rhyme mocks post-African American culture/s [note my plural and the author's use of singular with its assumption that there is only one African American cultural experience].
2. The mother's name is Miss Lucy. So she is not married but has a baby.
The author of this page assumes that the woman who had a baby in that rhyme had to a single mother because the title "Miss" prefaces her name. My position is that the title "Miss" was used out of respect to & for young girls and/or young women.
Note that "Miss Mary Mack" is another very widely known playground rhyme in which a title almost always prefaces the female name. The fact that in that rhyme "Miss Mary Mack" asks her mother for 15 cents [or 50 cents] substantiates my position that the title "Miss" prefaced the names of young girls.
Historically, an alternative theory could be offerred that the title "Miss" in this rhyme refers to a White girl or a White woman.
Prior to the end of slavery in the USA in the Southern regions of that country, the titles "Miss" and "Mr" were reserved for White people only. Instead, of those titles, "Aunt" and "Uncle" were used for old & [somewhat] respected Black folks. Examples of that usage are "Uncle Remus" [folktales], "Uncle Ben's" [These are still brand names for rice products] and "Aunt Jemima" [These are still brand names for pancake mix products and syrup products].
Also note that the title "Miss" was used during the 19th century if not earlier by Black folks if not by other people as a referent not just for young White women-married or unmarried-but also for young White girls. The referents "Little Miss" and "Young Missy" permeate fiction and non-fiction writings about the "Old South".
However, I believe that these Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes are of post-emancipation origin, perhaps as late as the 1940s or 1950s*. Because of that, my bet is on the first explanation that I gave for the title "Miss".
*I've not yet been able to find any documentation of when these "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes were first chanted.
I believe that this rhyme originated among African Americans, as is the case with the other songs & rhyme examples from the same "Lula Gal" sources. Because enslaved Black people rarely had access to doctors or nurses, and particularly not at their homes as is described in the story line of these "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes, the conclusion can logically be reached that these rhymes were of post-emancipation origin.
And if the words of these rhymes originally reflected people's anxiety about Diptheria epidemics in the United States, then the dates of those post-emancipation epidemics would help pinpoint probable early dates for these rhymes. That would put that rhyme's composition between the late 1880s and the early 1900s.
http://library.thinkquest.org/11170/epidemics/diphtheria.htmlprovides the information that "In the late 1800's, diphtheria epidemics spread throughout the United States and Europe until 1920, when a vaccine was developed.
Also, the line in "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" that goes "Hello Operator, give me #9" suggest that this rhyme was composed between 1878 and the 1920s as the 1920s was when direct dial telephones began in the United States.
And since the steamboat era was in the later half of the 19th century, that fact also helps date the "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" rhymes.
3.The name [Lucy] is typical to that of a young slave woman of African origin...
Tiny Tim as 'Miss Lucy' also mocks the African American short common names, such as Jim (the slave in Tom Sawyer) and Tom (in Uncle Tom's Cabin).
These statements are so simplistic that I believe that they don't deserve any comment.
4. Miss Lucy call's the "white" team, consisting of the Doctor, Nurse, and Social worker, with the "alligator purse".[5]
First of all, Black people and other People of Color were and are doctors, nurses, and social workers. It's racist to call those professionals "the 'white' team".
In my theory about the meaning of "the lady with the alligator purse", I differentiate between the "establishment" healthcare practitioners [the doctor and the nurse] and the non-establishment health care practitioner [the lady with the alligator purse]. I'm not sure if this is what the author of that Wikipedia article meant by what I consider to be her [or his] problematic and socially incorrect [as in "politically incorrect"] description of these characters.
The citation #5 that is given in this quote is from a lecture entitled "How not to appear as a social workerat the Australian College of Social Work". While a few lines from "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" are quoted, unless I missed it, those lines were given as examples of child neglect and abuse [??] and only [to me] obliquely referred to social workers carrying alligator purses.
Visit Part II of this series for more comments about the depiction of these three characters. Also, read quote #5 below...
5. An alligator purse was typical dress code for the social worker in the 1950s[6]
The citation given as #6 in that Wikipedia article is "Take me to Connie [sic] Island", Miriam Packer, Guernica Editions, 1993, Page 35.
I believe this book whose title is actually Take Me To Coney Island is fiction. I've read the page that was indicated via Google Books. That page includes a description of "Miss Robb...all clothed in professsional garb-dark velvet suit, alligator purse and shoes, Italian scarf with impressionist images of birds in flight"....
Having been a child welfare caseworker & supervisor for 15 years and a social services director at a residential facility for homeless women & children for three years [all in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area], I know a thing or two about how social workers dress. That book's description of that attire isn't even close. Furthermore, to date, I've not found any other online descriptions of social workers in the past or the present routinely carrying alligator bags as part of their professional "uniform".
Also, read my comments immediately below about citation #7 in that Wikipedia article.
6. According to folklore, bubbles stuck in the babies throat may refer to symptoms of Black Diphtheria, and the bathtub is a version changed for children.[7]
7. [This portion of this post include slight revisions for grammatical purposes made on December 28, 2018.]
Citation #7 is given as a "discussion on the folklore of the Miss Lucy rhyme". That link leads to http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418 "Folklore: Lady's alligator purse? Her own thread".
I'm very much familiar with that discussion as I posted more comments on that discussion thread than any other participant. Furthermore, as a once very active member of that discussion forum, I'm aware of the race of the other members who posted comments on that thread. I know that all of the participants in that discussion -except for me-are White [I'm African American]*. This is pertinent because, given her/his conclusions in this article, I gather that the author of the Wikipedia page erroneously assumed that both of the commenters who mentioned social workers in regards to that "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhyme were African American. However, for the record, both of these commenters were White men:
GUEST,Neighmond [Chaz]* Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:03 AM wrote "We always thought the lady with the aligator purse was the social worker!"
*Chaz was writing as a Guest because he hadn't logged in, but he was [and maybe still is] a member of that forum.
M Ted wrote on 21 Apr 06 - 06:06 PM "My neighborhood was not one of the better ones, and we knew the lady with the alligator purse to be a social worker,because wherever misfortune visited, she followed".
In that discussion thread I presented my theory that the lady with the alligator purse was a herbalist or some other non-traditional health care provider. In Part II of this series read more about this theory as well as my comments challenging both Chaz's and M. Ted's implications about how social workers are considered and interacted with when they arrive as investigators at homes in Black communities or any other communities.
Click http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418 for another Mudcat post that partly focuses on examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". I also participated in that discussion.
**
8.In some versions Miss Lucy acts violently to the doctor and nurse's prognosis, but pays the alligator purse lady for nothing.
I generally agree with this description.
*Pancocojams Editor's Comment About Mudcat Cafe's Discussion Forum
I'm including the following information about Mudcat Cafe although some may consider this to be off topic . However, I believe this information is pertinent in general terms and because it appears to me that the Wikipedia author of the article about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" assumed that Black people were the ones who mentioned that as children they thought that the lady with the alligator purse was a social worker. So for the public record and because I believe that it is important to document & share as much demographical information as possible including race for folkloric products [which also describes online blog posts and discussions], let me take this time to indicate the following:
Although Mudcat Cafe was & is a Folk & Blues forum, most of the music discussions have been and continue to be about folk music from White Europeans [This isn't redundent.] and White Americans. And while Mudcat excels in discussions about Old Time Music and early Blues, it's participants rarely discuss other forms of Blues and other folk music originating from & largely performed by People of Color. Also, while there were discussion threads on playground rhymes prior to my participation at Mudcat, the record shows that I spearheaded those discussions during the five years that I was an active member of that forum.
When I was active with that forum most Mudcat members were males & females fifty years & older who came from the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia in that order. Some other Mudcaters came from Germany, New Zealand, and a few other European nations.
During the years that I was active with Mudcat Cafe -from August 2004 to November 2009- there was only three other publicly acknowledged People of Color who were members of that forum - a Japanese man, a woman who was a Koori [an indigenous person] from a particular region of Australia, and a Black man from Ghana who I recruited to that forum & who unfortunately was only active there for a very short time. None of those persons commented on either one of the Mudcat discussion threads that I linked to in this post.
I'm sure that a small percentage of people who have posted and posts as non-members ["Guests"] on that forum were/are People of Color, although few Guests gave that demographical information.
Lastly, it appears to me since 2009 to date my description of the membership & Guest demographics for that forum remains the same.
NOTE FOR THE RECORD: I've posted a link to this pancocojams post and these comments about that forum in the Mudcat thread to which the Wikipedia author hyperlinked & whose link I provided in this pancocojams blog post.
**
With regard to the author's statement about "Black Diptheria", I agree that this rhyme's references to the baby having a "bubble in his throat" refers to Diptheria but wonder why the author referred to that disease as "Black Diptheria.
Additional comments about the early purpose of the "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" are found in Part II of this series.
Visit Part II and Part III of this pancocojams series for examples & comments about how the lady with the alligator purse is treated differently than the way the doctor and nurse are treated.
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RELATED LINKS
I believe that "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" can be partly traced to Old Time Music songs such as "Shout Lula". Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/reeltime-travelers-shout-lula-example.html for an example of "Shout Lula".
****
My thanks to all those who are quoted in this post, including the author of that Wikipedia article.
Thank you for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
[Editor's comments was slightly revised onDecember 28, 2018.
Note that the Wikipedia article on "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" that I read on December 28, 2018 isn't the same as the page that I'm critiquing in this pancocojams post. For example, the December 28, 2018 version doesn't include what I believe is an erroneous statement that "Miss Lucy" (similar to Miss Suzy), is the name of an American schoolyard rhyme and clapping game in which emancipated African American culture is mocked."
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This is Part I of a three part series on the playground rhyme which is called "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and other similar titles. In this post I critique the Wikipedia article about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby".
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/who-was-lady-in-alligator-purse.html for Part II of this series. In Part II I present five theories about the role played by the lady with the alligator purse in "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes. Comments from two Mudcat Cafe discussion threads about this rhyme are reposted to present these theories.
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/miss-lucy-had-baby-text-examples-videos.html for Part III of this series. That post features several variant text examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". Two videos of this rhyme are also featured on this post. That post also includes comments about the possible date of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby".
PART I
This post serves as a critique of the Wikipedia article on "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" that I read on October 14, 2013. All quotes from that article were retrieved on that date. Note that I'm aware from a comment in a box which prefaces that Wikipedia article dated June 2013 that "This article possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research may be removed."
I've chosen to write this blog post rather than using the format Wikipedia presents, partly because I prefer writing on this blog and partly because I tried but can't figure out Wikipedia's format for critiquing and suggesting changes in existing articles.
Prior to beginning this critique, I'm showcasing a rather "standard" example of "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat".
The content of this post is presented for folkloric and sociological purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
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EXAMPLE OF "MISS LUCY HAD A BABY"
Note: There are LOTS of different examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". In some of those examples the woman who had a baby is named "Susie" or "Molly" or another female name. In other examples of this rhyme the baby who almost drowns in the bathtub is the brother of the person who is voicing the words of the rhyme. Furthermore, there are other examples of this rhyme in which the "baby" isn't a person but a puppy. Other similarities & differences between versions of this rhyme are discussed in Part II of this series.
Here's one text example of this rhyme from http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081031194743AAQf7oV "Miss Susie had a baby..." How does the song/rhyme go?".
Miss Susie had a bady She named him Tiny Tim
She put him in a bathtub To see if he could swim
He drank up all the water He ate up all the soap
He tried to eat the bathtub But it wouldn't fit down his throat
Miss Lucy called the doctor
The Doctor call the nurse
The Nurse called the lady
With the alligator purse.
In walked the doctor.
In walked the nurse
In walked the lady
With the alligator purse.
"Measles," said the doctor.
"Mumps," said the nurse.
"Nothing," said the lady
With the alligator purse.
Miss Lucy kicked the doctor.
Miss Lucy punched the nurse.
Miss Lucy paid the lady
With the alligator purse.
-Chyna114, 2008
-snip-
That page features additional examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and examples of "Miss Susie Had A Steamboat". The playground rhymes "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and "Miss Susie Had A Steamboat" both come from the same "Lula Gal" Old Time Music sources. Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/grayson-and-whitter-shout-lula-example.html for my comment about the sources for those playground rhymes.
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EDITORIAL COMMENTS
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Lucy_had_a_baby
The statements from that article are presented in italics and my comments about those quotes are presented below those particular quotes. I'm assigning numbers to those quotes for referencing purposes.
1."Miss Lucy" (similar to Miss Suzy), is the name of an American schoolyard rhyme and clapping game in which emancipated African American culture is mocked.
I assume that by "emancipated African American culture" the author of this article means the way African Americans lived post-United States slavery. The author doesn't explain how this rhyme mocks post-African American culture/s [note my plural and the author's use of singular with its assumption that there is only one African American cultural experience].
2. The mother's name is Miss Lucy. So she is not married but has a baby.
The author of this page assumes that the woman who had a baby in that rhyme had to a single mother because the title "Miss" prefaces her name. My position is that the title "Miss" was used out of respect to & for young girls and/or young women.
Note that "Miss Mary Mack" is another very widely known playground rhyme in which a title almost always prefaces the female name. The fact that in that rhyme "Miss Mary Mack" asks her mother for 15 cents [or 50 cents] substantiates my position that the title "Miss" prefaced the names of young girls.
Historically, an alternative theory could be offerred that the title "Miss" in this rhyme refers to a White girl or a White woman.
Prior to the end of slavery in the USA in the Southern regions of that country, the titles "Miss" and "Mr" were reserved for White people only. Instead, of those titles, "Aunt" and "Uncle" were used for old & [somewhat] respected Black folks. Examples of that usage are "Uncle Remus" [folktales], "Uncle Ben's" [These are still brand names for rice products] and "Aunt Jemima" [These are still brand names for pancake mix products and syrup products].
Also note that the title "Miss" was used during the 19th century if not earlier by Black folks if not by other people as a referent not just for young White women-married or unmarried-but also for young White girls. The referents "Little Miss" and "Young Missy" permeate fiction and non-fiction writings about the "Old South".
However, I believe that these Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes are of post-emancipation origin, perhaps as late as the 1940s or 1950s*. Because of that, my bet is on the first explanation that I gave for the title "Miss".
*I've not yet been able to find any documentation of when these "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes were first chanted.
I believe that this rhyme originated among African Americans, as is the case with the other songs & rhyme examples from the same "Lula Gal" sources. Because enslaved Black people rarely had access to doctors or nurses, and particularly not at their homes as is described in the story line of these "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes, the conclusion can logically be reached that these rhymes were of post-emancipation origin.
And if the words of these rhymes originally reflected people's anxiety about Diptheria epidemics in the United States, then the dates of those post-emancipation epidemics would help pinpoint probable early dates for these rhymes. That would put that rhyme's composition between the late 1880s and the early 1900s.
http://library.thinkquest.org/11170/epidemics/diphtheria.htmlprovides the information that "In the late 1800's, diphtheria epidemics spread throughout the United States and Europe until 1920, when a vaccine was developed.
Also, the line in "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" that goes "Hello Operator, give me #9" suggest that this rhyme was composed between 1878 and the 1920s as the 1920s was when direct dial telephones began in the United States.
And since the steamboat era was in the later half of the 19th century, that fact also helps date the "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" rhymes.
3.The name [Lucy] is typical to that of a young slave woman of African origin...
Tiny Tim as 'Miss Lucy' also mocks the African American short common names, such as Jim (the slave in Tom Sawyer) and Tom (in Uncle Tom's Cabin).
These statements are so simplistic that I believe that they don't deserve any comment.
4. Miss Lucy call's the "white" team, consisting of the Doctor, Nurse, and Social worker, with the "alligator purse".[5]
First of all, Black people and other People of Color were and are doctors, nurses, and social workers. It's racist to call those professionals "the 'white' team".
In my theory about the meaning of "the lady with the alligator purse", I differentiate between the "establishment" healthcare practitioners [the doctor and the nurse] and the non-establishment health care practitioner [the lady with the alligator purse]. I'm not sure if this is what the author of that Wikipedia article meant by what I consider to be her [or his] problematic and socially incorrect [as in "politically incorrect"] description of these characters.
The citation #5 that is given in this quote is from a lecture entitled "How not to appear as a social workerat the Australian College of Social Work". While a few lines from "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" are quoted, unless I missed it, those lines were given as examples of child neglect and abuse [??] and only [to me] obliquely referred to social workers carrying alligator purses.
Visit Part II of this series for more comments about the depiction of these three characters. Also, read quote #5 below...
5. An alligator purse was typical dress code for the social worker in the 1950s[6]
The citation given as #6 in that Wikipedia article is "Take me to Connie [sic] Island", Miriam Packer, Guernica Editions, 1993, Page 35.
I believe this book whose title is actually Take Me To Coney Island is fiction. I've read the page that was indicated via Google Books. That page includes a description of "Miss Robb...all clothed in professsional garb-dark velvet suit, alligator purse and shoes, Italian scarf with impressionist images of birds in flight"....
Having been a child welfare caseworker & supervisor for 15 years and a social services director at a residential facility for homeless women & children for three years [all in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area], I know a thing or two about how social workers dress. That book's description of that attire isn't even close. Furthermore, to date, I've not found any other online descriptions of social workers in the past or the present routinely carrying alligator bags as part of their professional "uniform".
Also, read my comments immediately below about citation #7 in that Wikipedia article.
6. According to folklore, bubbles stuck in the babies throat may refer to symptoms of Black Diphtheria, and the bathtub is a version changed for children.[7]
7. [This portion of this post include slight revisions for grammatical purposes made on December 28, 2018.]
Citation #7 is given as a "discussion on the folklore of the Miss Lucy rhyme". That link leads to http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418 "Folklore: Lady's alligator purse? Her own thread".
I'm very much familiar with that discussion as I posted more comments on that discussion thread than any other participant. Furthermore, as a once very active member of that discussion forum, I'm aware of the race of the other members who posted comments on that thread. I know that all of the participants in that discussion -except for me-are White [I'm African American]*. This is pertinent because, given her/his conclusions in this article, I gather that the author of the Wikipedia page erroneously assumed that both of the commenters who mentioned social workers in regards to that "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhyme were African American. However, for the record, both of these commenters were White men:
GUEST,Neighmond [Chaz]* Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:03 AM wrote "We always thought the lady with the aligator purse was the social worker!"
*Chaz was writing as a Guest because he hadn't logged in, but he was [and maybe still is] a member of that forum.
M Ted wrote on 21 Apr 06 - 06:06 PM "My neighborhood was not one of the better ones, and we knew the lady with the alligator purse to be a social worker,because wherever misfortune visited, she followed".
In that discussion thread I presented my theory that the lady with the alligator purse was a herbalist or some other non-traditional health care provider. In Part II of this series read more about this theory as well as my comments challenging both Chaz's and M. Ted's implications about how social workers are considered and interacted with when they arrive as investigators at homes in Black communities or any other communities.
Click http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418 for another Mudcat post that partly focuses on examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". I also participated in that discussion.
**
8.In some versions Miss Lucy acts violently to the doctor and nurse's prognosis, but pays the alligator purse lady for nothing.
I generally agree with this description.
*Pancocojams Editor's Comment About Mudcat Cafe's Discussion Forum
I'm including the following information about Mudcat Cafe although some may consider this to be off topic . However, I believe this information is pertinent in general terms and because it appears to me that the Wikipedia author of the article about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" assumed that Black people were the ones who mentioned that as children they thought that the lady with the alligator purse was a social worker. So for the public record and because I believe that it is important to document & share as much demographical information as possible including race for folkloric products [which also describes online blog posts and discussions], let me take this time to indicate the following:
Although Mudcat Cafe was & is a Folk & Blues forum, most of the music discussions have been and continue to be about folk music from White Europeans [This isn't redundent.] and White Americans. And while Mudcat excels in discussions about Old Time Music and early Blues, it's participants rarely discuss other forms of Blues and other folk music originating from & largely performed by People of Color. Also, while there were discussion threads on playground rhymes prior to my participation at Mudcat, the record shows that I spearheaded those discussions during the five years that I was an active member of that forum.
When I was active with that forum most Mudcat members were males & females fifty years & older who came from the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia in that order. Some other Mudcaters came from Germany, New Zealand, and a few other European nations.
During the years that I was active with Mudcat Cafe -from August 2004 to November 2009- there was only three other publicly acknowledged People of Color who were members of that forum - a Japanese man, a woman who was a Koori [an indigenous person] from a particular region of Australia, and a Black man from Ghana who I recruited to that forum & who unfortunately was only active there for a very short time. None of those persons commented on either one of the Mudcat discussion threads that I linked to in this post.
I'm sure that a small percentage of people who have posted and posts as non-members ["Guests"] on that forum were/are People of Color, although few Guests gave that demographical information.
Lastly, it appears to me since 2009 to date my description of the membership & Guest demographics for that forum remains the same.
NOTE FOR THE RECORD: I've posted a link to this pancocojams post and these comments about that forum in the Mudcat thread to which the Wikipedia author hyperlinked & whose link I provided in this pancocojams blog post.
**
With regard to the author's statement about "Black Diptheria", I agree that this rhyme's references to the baby having a "bubble in his throat" refers to Diptheria but wonder why the author referred to that disease as "Black Diptheria.
Additional comments about the early purpose of the "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" are found in Part II of this series.
Visit Part II and Part III of this pancocojams series for examples & comments about how the lady with the alligator purse is treated differently than the way the doctor and nurse are treated.
****
RELATED LINKS
I believe that "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" can be partly traced to Old Time Music songs such as "Shout Lula". Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/reeltime-travelers-shout-lula-example.html for an example of "Shout Lula".
****
My thanks to all those who are quoted in this post, including the author of that Wikipedia article.
Thank you for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
Monday, October 14, 2013
Grayson and Whitter - Shout Lula (1929 Old Time Music sound file, lyrics, & comments)
Latest revision: March 24, 2021
This pancocojams post showcases a song file, and provides some information, lyrics, and comments about the Old Time Music song "Shout Lula" (also known as "Shout Lulu" and similar titles).
The content of this post is presented for folkloric, historical, and cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post. Thanks also to Grayson and Whitter for their performance of this song and thanks to the publisher of that sound file on Youtube.
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SHOWCASE VIDEO
Grayson & Whitter-Shout Lula
.
BBYMRLCCOTN, Uploaded on May 10, 2010
-snip-
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._B._Grayson
"Gilliam Banmon Grayson (November 11, 1887 – August 16, 1930) was a [White]* American Old-time fiddle player and singer. Mostly blind from infancy, Grayson is chiefly remembered for a series of sides recorded with [White American]* guitarist Henry Whitter between 1927 and 1930 that would later influence numerous country, bluegrass, and rock musicians. Grayson wrote much of his own material, but was also instrumental in adapting several traditional Appalachian ballads to fiddle and guitar formats. His music has been recorded or performed by musicians such as Bob Dylan, Doc Watson, Mick Jagger, the Kingston Trio, and dozens of bluegrass artists, including the Stanley Brothers and Mac Wiseman."
-snip-
*Given the focus of this blog on music from African Americans & other Black people throughout the world, I added the racial referents to clarify for readers that these men were White. I've showcased this video because the song "Shout Lula" probably is of African American origin.
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LYRICS: SHOUT LULA
(as sung by G.B. Grayson)
From this comment posted by Stewie in http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=53820 "Lyr Req: Hook and Line (and related songs)"
Subject: Add: Shout Lula
From:Stewie
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:18 AM
Here is my transcription of Grayson and Whitter's recording. I recall reading somewhere that many of the lyrics for 'Shout Lula' were quite risque and it was a favourite of kids for that reason. There is a hint of that in this dance version. There is a spirited banjo rendition by Mrs Louise Foreacre on Mike Seeger's collection 'Close To Home' [Smithsonian/Folkways SF CD40097] that shares some of the G&W lyrics. Does anyone have any scurrilous verses?
The bits in square brackets in the following transcription are spoken or yelled.
SHOUT LULA
Shout, Little Lula, shout, shout
Tell me what you're shoutin' about
[Swing, Wilbur, swing. Whoa]
How many nickels will it take
To see Little Lula's body shake
It takes a nickel, it takes a dime
To see Little Lula's body shine
[Shout Lula! Yee-haw! Shake that thing! Swing that girl, Henry! Wow!]
Shout, Little Lula, shout, shout
Tell me what you're shoutin' about
Shout, Little Lula, shout and sing
Your old grandmother's gone to swing
[Whoop that fiddle!]
Shout, Little Lula, shout your best
Your old grandmother's gone to rest
[Come on, Lula, swing! On my way somewheres. First couple out! Swing!]
Shout, Little Lula, shout, shout
Tell me what you're shoutin' about
[Whooo! Swing, Lula, swing! Shout Lula! Yee-haw! Say, Henry when you gonna pass that bottle?]
['Bout ten minutes.]
['Bout time.]
[Shake that thing!]
Shout, Little Lula, shout, shout
Tell me what you're shoutin' about
[Whooo! Come on, Lula, shout, Lula, shout]
Shout, Little Lula, shout and sing
Your old grandmother's gone to swing
Source: transcription of G.B. Grayson & Henry Whitter 'Shout Lula' recorded on 10 October 1928 in NYC and issued as Gnt 6373 in March 1929. Reissued on Grayson & Whitter 'Complete Recorded Works Vol I' Document DOCD-8054.
--Stewie.
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PANCOCOJAMS EDITORIAL COMMENT #1
Like other Old Time tunes & songs, "Shout Lula" was known in Black American & non-Black American communities. This song almost certainly originated among African Americans, given the call & response pattern of some examples of "Shout Lula", its two line rhyming pattern, the inclusion of certain Black vernacular terms, and the floating verses that are also found in other African American originating old time songs.
Here's a comment posted by Richie; Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:55 PM
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=53820
"From Ceolas: A Fiddler's Companion
SHOUT LULU. AKA - "Shout Lula," "Shout Lou," "Shout Old Lulu." AKA and see "Hook and Line." Old-Time, Breakdown. USA; east Tenn., southwestern Va., north Georgia, north Carolina, Ohio. G Major. GDAD. AABB. Art Rosenbaum (1989) says "this song is much more current in the tradition than its absence from printed collections would suggest." A banjo piece and dance tune, it was the repertoires of Dock Boggs and John Dykes (of the Dykes Magic City Trio) under the title "Hook and Line." Rufus Crisp, Woody Wachtel, Roscoe Holcomb, Pete Steele, Ralph Stanley, and Fiddlin' Cowan Powers 1877-1952? (Russell County, southwest Va.) played it as well as Uncle John Patterson (Carroll County, Ga.), a sometimes Skillet Lickers hanger-on who learned to pick the tune on the banjo "on his mother's {champion banjoist Bessie Patterson} lap when he was three years old" (Rosenbaum)"
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Here's a comment about the Grayson/Whittier recording of "Shout Lula" from https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.country.old-time/ATTT1UtigL8 "rec.music.country.old-time › Ralph Stanley and Old-Time Music"
posted by Oldtime1 (Joe Wilson) 5/29/97
"Little Lula/Lulu/Lulie
"Paul asked if there are two Lulu songs. Yes. The "Bang Away Lulu" lyric he quoted is not at all like "Shout Lulu.
When I interviewed G. B. Grayson's oldest daughter, Lilly Grayson Sturdivant, in 1972 near Rising Sun, MD (with Ken Irwin and Marian Leighton), she told about his compositions. She said he did not write "Shout Lulu" and that she thought it was "an old song." If it was old when Grayson recorded it in the late 1920s, it may be from minstrelsy. It certainly has the feel and rhythm of a minstrel song:
"Takes a nickle, takes a dime, To see Little Luly, cut a shine." Has anyone checked minstrel texts?"
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PANCOCOJAMS EDITORIAL COMMENT #2
It's very difficult to determine which came first-White minstrel versions of many "minstrel" songs or Black plantation lyrics & tunes for those songs. Like other Old Time tunes & songs, "Shout Lula" was known in Black American & non-Black American communities. This song almost certainly originated among African Americans, given the call & response pattern of some examples of "Shout Lula", its two line rhyming pattern, the inclusion of certain Black vernacular terms, and the floating verses that are also found in other African American originating old time songs.
Also, once a song was sung by Black faced minstrels [both White and Black minstrel performers, that song experienced the folk process of [additional] cross pollination from Black and from White populations.
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WHAT "SHOUT" MAY MEAN IN THE SONG "SHOUT LULA"
Here's an explanation about the word "shout"
Subject: RE: Lyr. Req: Hook and Line
From:kytrad*
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 05:15 PM
This may be relevant...Bessie Jones and I used to share stages together, from early sixties into seventies, and we used to do play-party games- she'd sing hers and I'd sing one from our family that matched it. She had many "shout" songs, and always explained that the word, "shout" in a game or song meant, "dance." Younger members of her family and community would sometimes be with her, and as she sang they'd sing with her, clap hands and dance or "shout."
-snip-
*"kytrad" is the screen name for White American folk music singer, songwriter, and Appalachian dulcimer player Jean Ritchie (ngwriter, and Appalachian dulcimer player. Click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Ritchie for more information about Jean Ritchie.
Bessie Jones (February 8, 1902 - July 17, 1984) was an African American singer who is best known for forming & performing as soloist for the Georgia Sea Isle Singers, a group whose repertoire consists of Black old time secular & religious songs. Along with Bess Lomax Hawes, Bessie Jones co-authored a collection of Georgia Sea Isle children's recreational songs & rhymes entitled Step It Down. Click http://www.allmusic.com/artist/bessie-jones-mn0000051492/biography for more information about Bessie Jones.
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INFORMATION ABOUT OLD TIME MUSIC
From http://www.folkways.si.edu/classic-old-time-music-from-folkways/american-folk/album/smithsonian: "Old-time music features playing styles that pre-date bluegrass, emerging from the string band tradition stretching back to the early years of United States history. Both African-American and Anglo-American ingredients are at its core, the banjo having African origins, the fiddle European."
**
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old-time_music
"With its origins in traditional music of Europe and Africa, old-time music represents perhaps the oldest form of North American traditional music other than Native American music, and thus the term "old-time" is an appropriate one. As a label, however, it dates back only to 1923."
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MISS LULA'S COMMENTS ABOUT HERSELF AND HER SONGS
(C)2013 Azizi Powell
"I don't mean to brag but there’s LOTs of Lula songs. Some of them call me Lula, some call me Lulu and some call me Lucy. Lulu’s just a nickname for Lula and “Lucy’s” just a ladylike way of saying both those names.
Some say I got the name “Lula” because I was born in Lula, Mississippi.* That sounds about right to me. And it could be that folks changed my name to “Lulu” because of that girl in those comic papers. Or maybe those songs callin me Lulu instead of Lula gave them the idea to name that girl in the comics “Lulu”. I don’t remember which one came first.
You know those “Miss Lucy Had A Baby” songs? Well first of all that rhyme came from those songs about me -Lula Gal. As for “Miss”, well that’s just a title that shows respect for me as a young lady.
Here’s another thing, I hear tell that some folks are talkin bad about me saying that “Miss Lucy Had A Baby” song is talkin ‘bout me havin a baby and not being married. Who said I wasn’t married when I had my baby? That’s nothing but lies!
And I know you know at least one “Miss Susie Had A Steamboat" song. I can’t help it if some folks decided to change my name to "Susie” or “Molly” and some other girl’s name. When it comes right down to it, those songs are all about me – “Lula Gal”.
I’m PROUD of most of my Lula songs, even those “Bang Bang Lulu” ones ‘cause they’re about me too, even if they are kinda dirty. All I’m gonna say is that folks oughta be careful what they are and who they’re around when they sing those songs. If you ask me, my favorite Lula songs are those old time, clean... well mostly clean ones that are still fun to sing , though you don’t hear much of them nowadays. If I had to choose my favorite Lula song it would be "Shout Lula".
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OTHER LINKS
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Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/reeltime-travelers-shout-lula-example.html for another example of "Shout Lula".
Also, click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/similarities-differences-between-bang.html Similarities & Differences Between "Bang Bang Lulu" & "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat" for a related pancocojams post.
Click http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=53820 "Lyr Req: Hook and Line (and related songs)" for a discussion about "Shout Lula" and other old time Lula songs.
In 2002 Richie, an active participant in that discussion wrote:
"Since "Shout Lula" seems to related to blues and work "hollers" perhaps the "Lula" originally refers to Lula, Mississippi or the Lula women from that town."
-snip-
Note: A transcription from that discussion thread is found below.
WARNING: Some comments & some lyrics that are found in that very informative discussion include the fully spelled out "n word".
Click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Lulu for information about the comic strip "Little Lulu" which began in 1935.
Click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Lucy_had_a_baby for a Wikepedia page about the playground rhyme "Miss Lucy Had A Baby". I very much disagree with the opinions that are presented as fact on that page, including the view that the woman who had a baby in that rhyme had to a single mother because the title "Miss" prefaces her name. My position is that the title "Miss" was used out of respect to & for young women. I'll add more comments about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and about that Wikipedia page in an upcoming pancocojams post about that rhyme.
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