Edited by Azizi Powell
This pancocojams post presents some examples of comments from various YouTube discussion threads on Beyonce's 2024 songs "Texas Hold 'Em" and "16 Carriages" that address African Americans' roles in the creation of the American Country Music genre was created by African Americans.
This post doesn't focus on the extensive discussion/argument in these and other YouTube discussion threads about whether or not Beyonce's songs "Texas Hold 'Em" and "16 Carriages" are "country music" or whether or not those songs are "good".
The content of this post is presented for historical, socio-cultural, and educational purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to Beyonce for her musical legacy and thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
-snip-
This pancocojams post is part of an ongoing series on Black influence on (American) Country music. This music is also called "Old Time music, Hillbilly music, fiddle music, Country & Western music, etc..
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2024/02/did-black-people-create-american.html for the closely related pancocojams post entitled "Did Black Americans Create The American Country Music Genre?"
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2020/03/black-influences-minstrel-influences-on.html for a 2020 pancocojams post in this series that is entitled "Black Influences & Minstrel Influences On The Songs That Old Time Music Performer Uncle Dave Macon Sung & Played".
Also, click the tags that are found below for more pancocojams post on the subject of African Americans and Country Music.
****
SELECTED COMMENTS ON THIS TOPIC
The YouTube discussion threads are only a small number of the YouTube videos & thread discussion threads for Beyonce's 2024 songs "Texas Hold 'Em" and "16 Carriages". As of the date of this pancocojams post (Feb/ 19,2024) no official video other than official lyric videos for these songs have been published on YouTube.
In addition to selected comments from Beyonce's official lyrics videos for both of these songs, this pancocojams post features selected comments from eight Reaction videos for either Beyonce's "Texas Hold 'Em" or Beyonce's "16 Carriages" or Reaction videos that focus on both of those 2024 Beyonce songs.
All of these comments are from February 2024. The comments under each discussion thread are given in relative chronological order based on the day they were published with the oldish comments given firs, except for replies.
**
Disclaimer: My selecting and quoting a particular comment doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with that comment.
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFEZx30TXLk
1. @jamalnicholson7168
"I love how your saying "Reclaiming our things."
Were simply taking back what was stolen from us and our ancestors"….
2.
"I love that you said it! We are reclaiming our things! WE
ARE THE INFLUENCE!!!"
**
3. @tanishaeverett1173
"I also hope it helps pave the way for country artists like
Mickey Guyton who has been fighting these dusty folks. Yes we are reclaiming
what’s ours"
**
4. @theycallmejondoenow
"Something I read on Facebook that I really liked &
agreed with: "Y’all know I love Beyonce down, but theres one thing that’s
being said about her new tracks that need to stop. She’s not 'reclaiming'
country music with act ii. There is already a very strong Black folk, country,
Americana scene that has been keeping our music and history very much alive.
There’s Brandi Waller-Pace , Jake Blount, Jess Garland, Kam Franklin, K
Michelle, Keith Frank, Reyna Roberts, and ofc Rhiannon Giddens [can’t forget
LGBTQ+ GRAMMY-*winning* Allison Russell either. ️]. So let’s enjoy this new
upcoming project, but let’s not ignore the Black artist who’ve been in this
genre forever."
**
5. @pagingdrbitchcraft
"Came through reclaiming! Cause the banjo is ours too. Let's
go"
**
6. @camealabass4314
"The handmade gourd instruments that would become the modern
banjo originated in West Africa. 2) Enslaved Africans carried the “banjar” and
its music to North America by way of the Caribbean. HAPPY BLACK HISTORY MONTH"
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzLuxGgznUg
1.@user-lt8fp9db4t
"Beyonce is going to single-handedly reclaim the genres of our people it's Black History month get into it country rock rock and roll"
**
2.@Roundthewayrose
"Black people are sickly connected because I had the exact
same react to Texas Hold Em, lmaoooooo"
**
Reply
3. @thetruthwillsetyoufree2493
"EXACTLY THIS MUSIC BELONGS TO US!!! ITS IN OUR GENES !!!
That’s why the melanin reacts the same way, again the same way!!! SANKOFA, GO
5:39 BACK AND RECLAIM WHAT WAS YOURS!!!"
**
Reply
4. @lsmooth7575
"If it ours why it take Beyonce to make us support it plenty
of black people that done put in work in the country genre ain't nobody support
them the only reason black people starting to care cause it Beyonce'
**
Reply
5.@Roundthewayrose
"@lsmooth7575 DOES IT MATTER??????Now more black artist
will get the recognition they deserve with her crossing over. Y'all love to
create a hate train or be mad. Think positive, if they have not been in the
spotlight, some will now, thats for sure, they will BENEFIT from the Bey effect
more than it's taking away from them"
**
6. @simplymellie
"Best reaction I've seen to this song so far!! Hahaha I love
it! Had me dancing and clapping with yal! HA"
**
7. @newhorizonsforfifty2833
"Come through with that downstroke clap! Seeing you both have
such a good time to this brings a big smile to my face."
**
8. @bperez8656
"This is what reclaiming a historically black genre looks
like"
**
9.@thetruthwillsetyoufree2493
"EXACTLY THIS MUSIC BELONGS TO US!!! ITS IN OUR GENES !!!
That’s why the melanin reacts the same way, again the same way!!! SANKOFA, GO
5:39 BACK AND RECLAIM WHAT WAS YOURS!!!"
**
10. @lilliancobbs6937
"I had to get up and dance too"
**
11. @phyllispowell2979
"Ya'll need to hear what John Schneider said, he
referenced her crossing over to country music as "a dog marking its
territory". COUNTRY MUSIC actually derived from the blues."
**
12. @sharj76ify
"And they act like we are taking something…. It’s in our
history ."
**
13. @christinemctaggart8185
"Bring it back to the creators."
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzeeyYC1MoY
1. @robinvolpi
"Beyonce is doing Blues/Americana which has DEEP African
American roots. And she's brought some very special heavy hitters, within the
genre, along for the ride to E-DU-MUH-CATE the Folk on the history. ;)"
**
Reply
2. @elimarshall1497
"And Irish/scottish folk"
**
Reply
3. @robinvolpi
"@elimarshall1497 No. Lol"
**
Reply
4. @LadyWinter-zb1pc
"Blues and gospel sound not Country"
**
Reply
5. @safirestudio
"They always want to downplay the African American
contributions to all American generas of music"
**
Reply
6. @060363
"Country is a black creation."
**
Reply
7. @Dustwitch
"Really, please explain those roots."
**
Reply
8. @robinvolpi
"@Dustwitch How about researching and having any
reputable PUBLICATION explain it to you??"
**
Reply
9. @robinvolpi
"@Dustwitch also... allow me to start over and give you
the FIRST lesson:
Beyonce is doing Blues/Americana which has DEEP African American roots. And she's brought some very special heavy hitters, within the genre, along for the ride to E-DU-MUH-CATE the Folk on the history. ;)
We know of Rhiannon Giddens, who I've been following for years, who was playing the banjo ( an African instrument of origin) on the Texas Holdem track. She's also an INCREDIBLE vocalist and all-around phenom talent.
Looking forward to March to see what other significant Black players/pioneers she'll be showcasing."
Reply
10. @vmaultsby2001
"
Reply
11, @KBe-tk2kw
"
**
Reply
12. @tristonholley
"Lmao like honestly she’s literally doing Texas blues"
**
Reply
13. @robinvolpi
" @knos360 Sounds did eventually blend, this is true"
**
Reply
14. @lisacox5405
"@elimarshall1497 To be fair...blues is very much steeped in
African American roots. Blues literally comes from spirituals that the enslaved
sung among themselves. Now...later on...what people think of as country does
have some Irish/Scottish roots. Most Irish/Scottish people lived in the South
with the enslaved Africans. Overtime...yes...after these groups spent so much
time together....there was a blend that came from that....which later became
what people NOW think of as country music.
Let's be clear though...it's a blend that twas created over time. The history that doesn't get talked about enough is that at one time miscengenation was NOT against the law and there as no slavery. In the early years before it was the US, those who came on the boat were mostly poor Irish and they were indentured servants. Not slaves. There was no slavery here yet. There was certain work the Irish were no good at because they were not familiar with the terrain...and they started bringing in Africans and Indigenous people that were also indentured servants. There was no slavery yet. Miscegenation was not against the law....so these groups worked side by side as indentured servants and had relationships and procreated with one another. That's the reason why many black Americans have percentages of Irish blood including myself. I'm from KY and many Irish/Scotts settled into KY so many black Americans from KY have some Irish blood. This is all well-known southern history."
Reply
15. @theshrikeer
"
Reply
16. @truthBreal2030
"
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCOX8dT9q8M
1. @rapcat1271
"Blacks created country music"
**
Reply
2. @Buttsceatcgee
" @rapcat1271
no one said they didn’t… they’re just saying that there’s black country
artists that HAS BEEN making country music but doesn’t get the attention they
deserve."
**
3. @BigHank75,2024
"Now they want to gatekeep huh? Lets remember where this
genre's roots come from."
**
Reply
4. @promotionaltoaster
"The roots came from 1924 white Vernon Dalhart’s “Wreck of
Old 97” and 1927 white Jimmie Rodgers.
Now, the confusion comes from knowledge that the
historically black genres of Blues and Bluegrass was the tree trunk that 1920s
Country branched off of, in addition to ancillary knowledge that black Blues
player Rufus “Tee Tot” Payne mentored white Hank Williams and helped him
develop his famous sound.
But all in all, country is a white genre. Now, that doesn’t
take away from some of the black greats though, like Charley Pride, Aaron
Neville, Darius Rucker, Dobie Gray, DeFord Bailey."
**
5. @HipHopVideoVixens
"For all the haters bashing Beyonce for making country
music....and telling her to stay in her own genre...do your history. .country
music was first created by black people."
**
6. @coreycokepolk9483
"Everyone relax. Country music was started by
blacks and im sure Beyonce is from the south"
**
7. @greatfilmmaker
"The opening of the song is a banjo. a banjo is a West african instrument the West
africans called it, Akonting, still trying to hide history"
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r23hBTTZ6w
1. @bravmiki
"Beyoncé is reclaiming genres we originated & then we're
ousted out of. There are quite a few black female country artists (look up
Tanner Adell) that have represented us. Hoping Beyoncé collaborates with them.
Love these songs! Tears & goosebumps!!"
**
2. @28princessbella
"Country belong to black American culture we taking it back"
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1t_18mvG7U
1. @yuurviscalling
"SHES MAKING SURE YALL KNOW BLACK PPL INVENTED AND INSPIRED THESE GENRES!!!"
**
2. @kokosoul77
"So good! The banjo was created by enslaved Africans and their descendants in the Caribbean and colonial North America! So its in our roots! Love your channel!"
**
3. @Daisymychele
"I keep seeing this but I think it might be true. Black people are the creators of these genres and people seem to forget that. So what Beyoncé is doing is she’s doing the genres we started."...
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkXkkkdf_o
1. @Alilloopi
"Country is a sourced in Blues just like R&B. That's why
R&B songs that country singers have also sang worked. Like Reba's cover of
If I Were a Boy. It also works vis versa Dolly Parton's I will always love you."
**
Reply
2. @leemoncure
"@Alilloopi I
wrote a paper, “The History of Country Music.” I don’t like Mexican influenced
Country. I like Country influenced by Scotland and Ireland. No interest in
Latin Music. It’s annoying.
I’ll leave that Texas stuff for you and “maybe Beyonce” as
she sings R&B style behind it."
**
Reply
3. leemoncure
"@Alilloopi sorry. Country is sourced mainly from Ireland
and Scotland. Southern gospel singing comes from the old Christian song of the
British Isles. Look it up."
**
Reply
4. @leemoncure
"@Alilloopi you’ll also find Bluegrass is a near direct
transplant from Britain. Nothing to do with Church other than being from the
same peoples. I come from Southern church. We had to learn those old British
songs."
**
Reply
5. @bperez8656
"@leemoncure that’s
your biggest problem. That you were trained classical and you’re being a genre
hog and a genre snob.
Beyoncé was classically trained from the age of 9 by an Opera coach
Beyoncé is a classically trained singer who genre bends at every opportunity she gets.
Only country music lovers are desperate to gate keep incredible execution !
Beyoncé is a student of history. I guarantee you she knows more about history than ALL OF US.
And just because you listen to modern Nashville country music doesn’t mean that the song isn’t 100% authentic traditional country in according to its blues roots
Black people invented country!!
It came from rhythm and blues and playing the banjo ! An
instrument which black people also invented !!!
She can have her R&B voice woven however she likes and
it’s authentic!"
**
Reply
6. @leemoncure
"@bperez8656 country
music was brought over by British and Irish immigrants from Britain. This also
influenced Southern Churches. Blacks were slaves at the time and were only
allowed to hold church services in the British way. I’m
from Mississippi and I attended the offspring of these churches as a kid. We
still sing British hymnals like “Amazing
Grace.”
You are trying to be to appropriate the culture of these
people and it isn’t right. No matter how angry you get or how much you repeat
your argument, it’s based on lies. You can’t do this. Country music is
basically British music that morphed into what it is today.
We are going to have problems in the USA is people continue
to stop reading and just make stuff up. All if this information is at your
fingertips online. You just have to read.
Take some time and read the history of Country Music. Please
stop spreading that lie.
PLEASE. Please don’t spread information without researching
it."
**
Reply
7.@KBe-tk2kw
"@leemoncure she's
not appropriating anything"
**
Reply
8. @KBe-tk2kw
" @leemoncure once
music came to the US and we made it our own its no longer the same as the
"source" culture. Gospel music that "Blacks" sing sounds
NOTHING like the church music that came from the brits. You are quite literally
insane. Being a purist only when it comes to genres that Black Americans made
their own while giving all of the credit to the Irish and the scots shows your
bias. I'm guessing you think the banjo comes from Europe too?"
**
Reply
9. @leemoncure
"@KBe-tk2kw you do know Blues isn’t Country right???
Maybe that’s where the miscommunication comes from. We made Blues in
Mississippi (where I’m from) and Memphis, TN. Are you confusing Blues with
country? BB King?"
**
Reply
10. @mcctusk
"I
believe that you have researched this, however I am baffled that you claim
bluegrass is a near direct transplant from Britain. Have you never heard
recordings of music the music enslaved people played? The Banjo is so intrinsic
to bluegrass, do you claim Brits and Irish people brought the banjo? Also, I
cannot think of any European music form that has the timing, timbre, or vocal
improvisation like bluegrass. If you can point me in that direction, I will
gladly stand corrected.
There are many country music historians who tell the full story of the origins of this music. They just are not strictly of European origin. The influence of Black music on both art forms is well documented. Also well documented is how the music business, and recorded music specifically segregated the music, which I believe is why it is played and enjoyed mostly by people of European descent today."
Reply
11.
"@mcctusk I don’t think there is a winning argument.
Music in the US is a fusion of its people. Blues is the music where I’m from.
I remember having to square dance in school. It was part of
our lesson!
People like to leave Scotland and Ireland out of the
influence but the South is nearly a strict repeat of those areas. I grew up
with half Scottish traditions.
I hope Beyoncé isn’t gaslighting us just to be
controversial. That wouldn’t be ethical in my view. This is what makes me
angry. She’d really better be interested in Country rather than just the
controversy."
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URWtEBKR3QA
"Kenny Chesney said there was no room for Beyonce in Country
Music but he must be totally losing it right now. Country Music has Black roots
but Jim Crow shut Black Country Music Artisits out if the market. For some
history warch the Documentary Country Music ny Ken Burns on PBS."
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcDW3Sn3DYY
1. @stephenfisher3721
"the influence of black musicians on whites in
Appalachia was profound but is now rarely acknowledged. In the early twentieth
century, people in the mountains were listening to blues records and to black
guitarists such as Blind Lemon Jefferson and Blind Blake, blues singers such as
Bessie Smith, and to the jazzy string band music of groups such as the
Mississippi Sheiks. The guitar itself was introduced to the region by blacks.
It was this interaction between blacks and whites in the unique social, economical,
and geographical environment of the Southeast and particularly in Appalachia
that led to the development of commercial country music and later bluegrass.
Source: Africa, Appalachia, and acculturation: The history
of bluegrass music music Charles W. Perryman -Ph.D. dissertation"
**
2. @asitsbeensaidthisday6604
"I was just recently listening to the song, O'Death, which
was featured as part of the soundtrack of the movie, O Brother, Where Art Thou?
(2000), and it has always been obvious to me that the song sounded like a Black
spiritual or folk song in the way it was sang. Well, once I looked it up,
though it's described as an Appalachian folk song, a printed version of it was
cited in 1913, in the Journal of American Folklore as being sung by
"Eastern North Carolina Negroes" circa 1908. Newsflash, Black people resided in Appalachia
also."
As I commented to another one your videos, all Black people
want is for everyone to be honest, tell the truth, and give credit where it's
due. Syncretism happens over time and
it's expected, however, everything African Americans have originated and
contributed which has been appropriated in some form or fashion becomes
effected by a revisionism of history that always attempt to erase us. Anyway, great video with a very knowledgeable
guest."
**
3. @Lindel60
"Ken Burns, a well known documentarian, launched a country
music documentary a few years ago that highlighted the black American roots of
country music. He discussed in depth on
how the early founders of country music were musically mentored by black
Americans."
**
Reply
4. @Lindel60
"@nytn yes.
It’s a good documentary. It has
many parts to watch though. I didn’t know how extensive black American roots
were in country music until I watched this documentary and I am a black
American."
**
Reply
5. @deanie2477
"This an example of certain people not giving black people
credit for contributions to society...... We were second class citizens so we
were never allowed to patent or copyright anything"
**
Reply
6. @majorlazor5058
"Sometimes is just straight up ignorance and bigotry. Also,
I’d wager most country music fans have no idea of its origins."
**
Reply
7.@oldskoolj23
"Facts"
****
YouTube Discussion Thread #10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueelAMqX8V0
1, @HAHA_MFer
"the only problem with the "reclaiming" language is
that there are black artists already firmly established within the country
genre and they are holding space just fine--if anything, Beyonce will likely
enhance the collective awareness of the contributions of black artistry to
country music."
**
Reply
2. @kmarcol1
"Came here to say this. She's not reclaiming anything. She is
tapping into her creative side and
exploring genres that were created by us that is typically not her
normal type of music."
**
Reply
3. @Purple-qi4hj
"Your comment contradicts itself, Black country artist, arent
holding the space just fine, they deserve more visibility, and recognition.
But, I agree Beyonce isn't trying to reclaim anything. She's an artist from
Texas, grew up with country music, and wants to create in this genre. Its not a
political statement. She gave us a taste in Lemonade, now she is going full
tilt and I'm here for it."
One note, let's not minimize the reach Beyonce has on
culture globally, there will be an injection of people (all people, not just
Black people) who never listen to country but will give it a go. Apple Music
has these songs listed under Pop....interesting."
**
Reply
4. @shakurwright2522
"Reclaiming is still what she’s doing. Enhancing reclaiming
all kinds of the same stuff. She is showing everyone who actually runs this
sh-t*. PERIOD"
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.
Reply
5.
"@shakurwright2522 No, it's not quite the same--words matter,
whether you think so or not. To "reclaim" is to retrieve or recover
something previously lost--black contributions to country music have not been
lost so much as they have been diminished or, perhaps, crowded out. To
"enhance" involves intensifying, increasing, or further improving the
value of something. Beyonce's immense star power, currency and talent will
certainly enhance the value of already existing black contributions to country
music. Let's not diminish the black country artists who've been holding it down
thus far."
**
Reply
6. @HenryClearwater
"I feel the exact same way. I feel like people who say this
don't even listen to the genre and therefore can't even support that black
artists who exist in this space. Which, in my opinion, makes their collective
excitement for "reclaiming the genre" a tad hypocritical."
**
Reply
7. @Molly-iw1rc
"@HenryClearwater just because black artists are still in the
mix doesn't mean it's not still claimed as a white genre. Same with rock music
which is probably act III. Many black rock artists exist and are still being
told by everyone that it's not their genre. She is reclaiming by saying
"this is our genre, we belong here too, we started this genre",
that's what she is doing with these albums. She isn't saying "look a new
genre! Guys a new thing that I'm discovering is here" (house music was
genuinely new for many people though), and we already know she has been
listening to house music for years, so she is quite literally using her albums
as a cultural statement "We are here. We belong in this genre too."…
**
Reply
8. @shonnaf4588
"They are already listing it as Pop on Amazon. Country
Artist: "Country music! We stole it, and not giving it back! " "
**
Reply
9. @spacebar9733
"Yall anything that becomes trending is listed as pop
regardless of the actual genre of the song. Olivia Rodrigo for example has
plenty of “pop” songs that are not actually pop genre."
**
Reply
10. @BigSplenda1885
"It’s listed as country on Apple Music"
**
Reply
11. @bmwjourdandunngoddess6024
"Yup, those ppl at the top (the yts), do NOT seem to be happy
that Black People want OUR art back. We have to fight back and fight back HARD"
**
Reply
12. @lorettahoffmann4226
"@lizpark9854 when it comes to pop music in the modern
context it’s literally just music that conforms to the conventional song
structure of verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus with minor differences
among various artists in the genre. That is what most people would regard as
pop music song writing in the western space. Country music is a genre that
takes upon that structure and uses the instruments of acoustic guitar, banjo,
fiddle, drums, harmonica, washboard, and pedal steel among others. There is a
specific social economic reason as to why country music sounds the way it does.
Because it came from poor enslaved black people so these instruments had to be
extremely cheap to make. The banjo is literally an instrument invented by
enslaved black Americans that is highly inspired by the African instrument
akonting. So no everything I said still
stands this is just an extended explanation for you."
**
Reply
13. @camealabass4314
"Can't take something that was already ours. The handmade
gourd instruments that would become the modern banjo originated in West Africa.
2) Enslaved Africans carried the “banjar” and its music to North America by way
of the Caribbean. Which lead to folk, gospel, bluegrass, blues, R&B,
country, jazz, rock, hip-hop and pop. HAPPY BLACK HISTORY MONTH"
****
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