Michele², Jul 13, 2012
1977 - "Best of Arlo Guthrie"
****
Edited by Azizi Powell
This compilation documents some commenters' views that race shouldn't be a factor in what types of music people like. This compilation also documents some commenters' views that there is no such thing as race or that a person's race (i.e. "a person's skin color") doesn't make any difference.
In addition, some examples in this compilation indicate that the train song "City Of New Orleans" isn't country music, but folk music.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2023/07/steve-goodman-s-city-of-new-orleans.html for Part I of this series. That post showcases a video of a performance of this song by its composer Steve Goodman, joined by his friend American country music singer John Prine. The lyrics to that song are also included in that pancocojams post along with information about that train.
In addition, that pancocojams post presents some comments about the song "City Of New Orleans" from a Mudcat folk music discussion thread. Special attention is given to the song's line "freight yards full of old black men" and that song's reference to Pullman porters.
The content of this post is presented for historical, folkloric, socio-cultural, entertainment, and aesthetic purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to Steve Goodman, the composer of this song, for his musical legacy. Thanks also to Arlo Guthrie for his musical legacy and thanks to all those who are quoted in this post. In addition, thanks to the publisher of this video on YouTube and special thanks to @marilyndaniels9562 whose initial comment sparked that YouTube discussion thread conversation and whose replies enriched that online conversation.
-snip-
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2022/09/2019-article-excerpt-african-american.html for a closely related 2019 pancocojams post entitled "2019 Article Excerpt -"African American Influence on Country Music Can’t Be Understated, or Overstated" (with selected comments)".
Also, click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2023/07/youtube-film-documenting-life-of-black.html for the closely related pancocojams post entitled "YouTube Film Documenting The Life Of Black Musician/Composer DeFord Bailey, The First Country Music Performer To Have His Music Recorded In Nashville, Tennessee".
SELECTED COMMENTS FROM THIS SOUND FILE'S DISCUSSION THREAD
(with numbers added for referencing purposes only)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvMS_ykiLiQ
2021
1.
"I am black I had a sister that liked country western songs.
when I was a teen this song came out my sister which was a older teen used to
sing this song to me and dance this
little country dance after a while she had me singing the song I never could do
the dance but she convinced me how great the song the city of New Orleans is.
She is no longer on this t plain but iI
still see her singing and dancing her little made up country dance and it
always makes me smile. Thank u Arlo
gutherie"
**
Reply
2. @JesseMaust
"That is such a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing it."
**
Reply
3.@rileycpo
"We are not truly divided! My father was a railroad yard
master in Rochester, New York. He loves this song to this day. It speaks! We
could so link arms and tell the stories of our lives in this country!"
****
2022
Reply
4. @marilyndaniels9562
"I want to thank well wishers who sent such heart
lifting and sweet replies. I was 13 in the 70s and my sister was 18. My sister
was my friend as well as my family and all the replies is so heart warming thank you all so much🎼🤗"
**
Reply
5. @californiadreaming9216
"Hi Marilyn thank you for your comment. Sounds like a great
memory. For the record... there is no such thing as white or black. There are
just several billion people clinging to this rock called Earth flying through
space trying to survive and to love and to be loved. Cheers"
**
Reply
6. @frankenboston
"i Love this story so much its heartwrenching heartwarming so
sweet . i can almost see the coolest cutest dance in my minds eye of your
sister doing it. it's now a permanent part in the memory when I'll hear this
song"
**
Reply
7. @angelabennett7849
"What a sweet memory of your sister. Brought tears to my
eyes. I loved this song too and I’m not a country music fan."
**
Reply
8. @stevengarrett7222
"It's a beautiful song. I remember listen to it on the radio
as a small child is born in 1960 , this song has stuck in my heart every since"
**
Reply
9. @judsonsimzer1463
"Amen, brother from another mother 😊🙏"
**
Reply
10. @julianneal6178
"What has your colour got to do with this song"
**
Reply
11. @marilyndaniels9562
" @julianneal6178 I was a motown and gospel kid. My sister did
her made up dance and sang this song to me every morning before we went to
school. she was into country western and folk she convinced me how great The new orleans
song is and I fell in love with this song when I was a young kid."
**
Reply
12. @patboyle8734
"Beautiful story.Funny how music can cross all barriers .Keep
your sister memories alive."
Reply
13. @ericschulze5641
"
**
Reply
14. @danielbohland5271
"I definitely wouldn't say this is country western it was
soft rock singer-songwriter folk rock"
**
Reply
15. @marilyndaniels9562
"@danielbohland5271 yes someone a while back let me know its a
folk song and that Arlo Guthrie sang the
song and should I say very well but was not the creator of the music or the
words."
**
Reply
16. @bethtindall9208
"What a beautiful memory and love to you for sharing! Peace ✌️"
**
Reply
17. @baiyuantongbei
"No words for such a beautiful tribute to your sister.
Interesting you mentioned your ethnicity, although I suppose to we european
americans, it is an unusual connection. My high school VP (of 40 years ago),
whom I still call "dad" because of his care for me and influence in
my life in high school (a "black" man, although actually more of a
mocha java skin color)... likes to do Texas line dancing :). Thank you so much
for sharing this lovely tribute to your sister. Having recently suffered a loss
of similar magnitude, I am especially grateful for these kinds of memories that
I believe ultimately we may all come to share... our personal "photo
albums" expressing the essences of our lives."
**
Reply
18. @lemonyellowshorts
"Thats a lovely story. You made me cry. Bless you and your
sister.
I think of this song as folk music, not country."
**
Reply
19.
"My dad worked for the ICRR, every summer I went
to Chicago, St. Louis, NoLa, Kansas
City…saw a lot of Steve Goodman’s vision through Arlo Guthrie and Willie
Nelson’s moving melodie’s, I cry every time I hear this song, means more than
most people know!"
**
Reply
20. @redevil7081
"Marilyn Daniels, I cry every time I hear this song…a
railroader’s son!"
**
Reply
21. @marilyndaniels9562
"@redevil7081 hello red devil I cant tell u how to handle
this especially if a loved one is involved. How I get thru is to remember the
good images of that time and laugh maybe this can get u thru too ok."
**
Reply
22. @redevil7081
"@marilyndaniels9562 I do that every day; I grew up during the
schools being integrated. I already had black friends, their dads worked on the
railroad with my dad; I never had a problem with ethnic folks, I grew up with
Jewish, Lebanese, Syrian, Cubans and Puerto Rican families…I’m Irish, was
taught I was no better than the person beside me. Our country is at at a
defining point; are we truly Americans or are we just racists putting up with
each other…I hope we’re all Americans who seek strength with all our brothers
and sisters."
**
Reply
23. @marilyndaniels9562
"@redevil7081 Me too"
**
Reply
24.@bradhays256
"What does your skin color have to with ANY of this? Appreciating
music is not sensitive to color????"
**
Reply
25. @marilyndaniels9562
"@bradhays256 Hays everyone does not appreciate other
genres of music."
**
Reply
26. @richardkougasian7866
"Sista this is folk music at its best. Steve Goodman wrote it
and Arlo sang it to the map."
**
Reply
27. @kawai99100
"I'm a white lady and love to play blues on my guitar. Life
really is cool😊"
**
Reply
28. @patricklink8527
"What a great story. May your sister rest in peace and your
memories of her always bring you Joy. Since you mentioned you were African
American I would add the importance in my mind of our low including the Coleman
Porters in this song as they were pretty much exclusively black men. They
formed a union and the real world brought together people in a way that is
sorely missed in today's society. When he says the sons of Coleman Porters and
the sons of Engineers it's kind of a I have a dream type of comment. Where the
two races are together. Best of everything to you bro thanks for the comments."
**
Reply
29. @anthonybracciante5112
"What a beautiful remembrance for you. Arlo like his dad
Woody are national treasures."
**
Reply
30. @ElvarMasson
"The colour of your skin doesn't make any difference"
**
Reply
31. @timdrhookmccracken
"It's a beautiful American song, sounds like your sister and
you were/are beautiful Americans. Bless."
**
Reply
32. @rayhackley7319
"Nice post but please don't specify black, white, whatever.
This a song about old Americana which we're all a part of dear ♥"
**
Reply
33. @HT-gn5jc
"Isn't it cultural occupancy, when a black person listens to
country music?"
**
Reply
34. @roballen8431
"@frankenboston sons of Pullman porters.porters were
historically black"
**
Reply
35. @marthajf73
"This is NOT country music."
**
Reply
36. @jbx1967
"@marthajf73
It's folk, which is closely related."
**
Reply
37. @marilyndaniels9562
" @marthajf73 yes i found out a while ago its folk"
**
Reply
38. @marilyndaniels9562
"@steventidwell3184 I listen to chinese music these days i think its beautiful."
**
Reply
39. @steventidwell3184
"@marilyndaniels9562 that's kind of funny because 20 years ago
people would look at you like you were crazy if you told them that. Now there
are lots of people doing just that. Real music comes from the heart and is
universal.
**
Reply
40. @Hipdudester
"I'm a Black person and my great uncle was in charge of the
Black Pullman proters out of Jackson TN"
****
2023
Reply
41. @mikekaup5252
"Martin, this was written by Steve Goodman, a Jewish singer
from Chicago. You might like his original version too I sang this to myself while riding the City
of New Orleans in the Southern Crescent Raul line in 1977. It was the last year
they used the old equipment before changing to Amtrak. The black Chef did up a
poached Seabass for my friend and the finest southern style chicken and waffles
for me! Real quality people worked on that train!"
**
Reply
42. @marilyndaniels9562
"@mikekaup5252 I would have loved to had been on that last
run of the New Orleans before it changed to amtrack. 😊"
**
Reply
43. @choicelady
"The City of New Orleans was known before 1960s as the
"Chicken Bone Express" when segregated cars brought Black people
north. They pakced chicken for the trip - through the bones out the window
since the car had no services. It helped
many a person get to Chicago and onwards, but it was a harsh trip for
many. It has an important part in Black
history. Cherish it."
**
Reply
44. @rosenelson8461
"When i was 10 years old i was lead singer
In a kid band there was 2 whites 5 blacks
We were all best friends we did soul numbers i will die
loving soul wilson picket music has no color god bless you"
**
Reply
45.@marilyndaniels9562
"@rosenelson8461 Hi Rose Nelson music does not know color but
it does have flavor."
**
Reply
46. @billm2078
"I can't remember where it was, but I had a black female
bartender singing this and she was awesome."
**
Reply
47. @rodrikofharlaw6848
"What does you being black have to do with anything?"
**
Reply
48.@pauldmckee
"Why do you mention your color?"
**
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49. @marilyndaniels9562
"@pauldmckee I came up in the civil rights era. Soul music was different from country western or
folk. My sister dared to be different. She listened to all radio stations. She
used to do he lil made up country dance and sing the city of new Orleans to me every time it
played on the radio. In my school or hers if u mentioned the name Arlo Gutherie
your friends would say what who? Just
like other schools
out of our area would react back in the 70 if u said the Delfonics. Hey these days I
like the music from chinese dramas . My multicutural older sister
in the 70 showed me thst we didnt
have to just listen to music we were introduced to. She was right because I
fell deeply in love with the song The
City of new Orleans Hope I answered your
question this was my with experience
with music in my youth."
**
Reply
50. @pauldmckee
"@marilyndaniels9562 you didn't address my question"
**
Reply
51. @marilyndaniels9562
"@pauldmckee I did
answer your question you just didnt understand the answer which is ok."
**
Reply
52. @pauldmckee
"@marilyndaniels9562 the question was why you have to put skin
color in the conversation. I have never said I'm white so that's why I did
something."
**
Reply
53. @marilyndaniels9562
"@pauldmckee I told u why ."
**
Reply
54. @californiadreaming9216
"Marilyn Daniels hi. Thank you for your comment. Great story.
Personally I am neither black nor white nor yellow nor red. I am just a human
being on Iraq called her this flying through on a rock called birds flying
through space trying to be happy. I encourage you to be the same. Shalom"
-snip-
This is the latest comment about race in that sub-thread as of the publishing date of this pancocojams post.
****
This concludes Part II of this two part pancocojams series.
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
Here's one comment from another online discussion thread that responds to the question "What is the difference between country music and folk music?"
ReplyDeletehttps://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/2cmcyi/what_is_the_difference_between_between_country/
sonnykeys256, August 5, 2014
"Both genres have their roots in Appalachian music, but there are differences that have become less subtle as time passed: 'folk' music tended to tell stories in the lyrics, while 'country' music became the genre for emotional reactions; 'folk' relied on acoustic instruments more heavily, while 'country' included more electric instruments (particularly Hawaiian steel guitar); 'folk' often has only light rhythm instrumentation while country can often involve a powerful drum part. There are songs that could go either way, but they usually get classified according to the genre the artists performing them are associated with."
-end of quote-
However, on July 20, 2023 SpellRare5506,another commenter in that discussion, wrote
"Folk doesn’t have roots in Appalachi, you have mis-understood what Folk is then".
Notice that the first commenter in that sub-thread about "The City Of New Orleans" train song labeled it a "Country and Western" song.
ReplyDeleteHere's a quote from yet another online discussion thread about the difference between Country music & Western music:
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-country-and-western-music
Ayan Datta, 2018
""Country music originally belongs to Southern USA . Western music belongs to Western US and Canada.
To be honest ,over the years the two genres have fused due to the declining popularity of the cowboy ballads and western music in general.
The music industry of the mid-20th century grouped the two genres together under the banner of country and western music, later amalgamated into the modern name, country music
It is notable though that country music has evolved more than western. Many derivative categories have come out of it. Western music is not on every man’s mind now as much as country."
@marilyndaniels9562's comments address the fact that a person's race and where they were raised usually has a tremendous influence on the types of music and dance that they are familiar with and the types of music and dance that they prefer.
ReplyDeleteIn her comment given as #11 in this pancocojams compilation, @marilyndaniels9562 wrote that she was a "motown and gospel kid".
"Motown" refers to an American record label that was founded in 1959 in Detroit, Michigan, That label was known for one form of Rhythm & Blues music that was very popular among African Americans. Click https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motown for more information about Motown.
Just like there was (and still are) different forms of R&B music, there was and still are different forms of Gospel music. @marilyndaniels9562's comment refers to a particular type or types of African American Gospel music.
Inherent in @marilyndaniels9562's comments is the assumption that Black Americans weren't/aren't a part of the history and culture of folk, country, and country & western music in the United States.
DeleteLet's put aside a broad definition of folk music that includes those other genres. Let's also put aside the fact that all people make/have folk music as well as the fact that "folk music" includes children's recreational rhymes and singing games, and cheers.
The heart of the matter is that nowadays most Americans regardless of race/ethnicity believe that African Americans have never been a part of and aren't now a part of folk, country, and country & western music.
That wasn't true in the past and isn't true now.
As noted in this 2022 article https://wjct.org/jme/2022/06/the-black-origins-of-country-music/ "The Black Origins Of Country Music":
"From the African origins of the banjo — an instrument whose sonic signature is audible in country music to this day — to the influence of Black musicians on early country stars like The Carter Family and Hank Williams to the exposure popular R&B and soul musicians brought to the genre, Black artists have played a prominent role in country music from its beginnings to today."...