****
Edited by Azizi Powell
In addition, this pancocojams post includes an excerpt of a Wikipedia article about "uprock" which is also known as Rock, Rock Dance, Brooklyn Rock, Burning or Freestyle
The Addendum to this post provides a definition of the African American Vernacular English word "to burn". That use of "burn" is the source of the word "burning" that is used in this video.
The content of this post is presented for historical and cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thaks to Michael Waynetv and all those who are quoted in this post.
-snip-
WARNING: This YouTube video, and other videos in MichaelWaynetv's YouTube account contain profanity and also include a form of the referent that is now largely known as the n word.
****
PANCOCOJAMS EDITOR'S NOTE
This is my unofficial transcription of this video. I chose to transcribe this video because there's only a little bit of information online about the history of Hip Hop, the Spades dance, burning [dance], and some other topics that are discussed in this interview.
Disclaimer: I'm not and have never been a member of the Spades or any other gang and I've not had any contact with Michael Wayne or anyone else in these videos. Their comments and additions and corrections to this transcription are very welcome.
My notes/explanations in this transcription are given in brackets. The first comments about "burning" are given in bold font to highlight those comments.
This video is given as Part 2 of 2, however I haven't found Part 1 of 2.
-snip-
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2020/10/youtube-video-with-comments-about-rock.html for the closely related pancocojams post entitled "YouTube Video With Comments About Rock Dance (Burning/UpRock) in Brooklyn "
****
TRANSCRIPTION OF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGiWxc7GUss&ab_channel=MichaelWaynetv
"PART 2 OF 2 ...Zulu King Cholly Rock talks about the very beginning of breakdancing with The Black Spades, The N [four letter form of the n word] Twins, Clark Kent, James Bond and the Zulu Kings
Cholly Rock [CR]- Ah, what it is now - Annnd it has [gotten] real commercial-I have a definition for now. Right, you know you have people who created the five different elements and all these different things and that’s what it’s become. But what it was for me always was the music, and the dancers. And, eventually, later on the rappers. And that’s what it always has been for me. And that’s what I still continue to define it as. And I understand that others have added the media artist and all that kind of thing. That’s great if you wanna add that. But, for me, the graffiti artists were in existence even before Hip Hop culture. I know a lot of cats that were graffiti artists. I know White guys who were graffiti artists who wouldn’t have anything to do with Black people let alone with Hip Hop.
MWTV- Um
CR – So, you know, I I appreciate that it was incorporated
in. That’s wonderful. But I’ve always defined Hip Hop or what it’s come to be
known as Hip Hop as the music, the style of dance, and the style of mc-ing or rapping.
I think that’s what it’s all inclusive.
MWTV- Okay, so where would you- on the Hip Hop time line- where, how would you
start it off? The history of Hip Hop, where would it start from?
CR- Well, you can’t have the history of
Hip Hop without first of all talkin about the gang culture and the Black
Spades. Um, one of the things that I told you when we were talkin on the phone
was and we were talkin about the light bulb and now we had the light bulb
MWTV- Right
CR- Thomas Edison created the light bulb, and all that the
light bulb
MWTV- Right
CR- But he couldn’t have done that without Ben Franklin discovering electricity
one hundred years or whatever previously.
MWTV- Right
CR- So, while the genius of Hip Hop and and I know people aren’t gonna like this, is Kool Herc, and people can say whatever they want , he would
not be possible without the electricity that was created by the culture that
was existed in the 1970s, the early part of the 70s, and that specifically was
the gang culture, and more specifically startin with the Black Spades.
MWTV- Oh okay- the Spades. Now, I just had-you know what I’m saying- a Spade
tellin me that they was doin a Spade dance.
CR - Oh yeah.
MWTV -He felt like that’s where break dancing kinda came from.
CR- (shakes his head up and down and says) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um…
[video moves to a later clip in this same interview]
CR- And so Spade dance is one of the areas where it started. Then you had
people doin what used to be known as “burning”. Okay.
MWTV- “Burning”
CR-“Burning”, yeah, which is the precursor of “break dancing”.
MWTV- Okay.
CR- And you gotta remember, all art forms take from various other art forms
MWTV- Right
CR- And you know, and so, burning was like a thing that was maybe a precursor
to “uprock”. And so, somebody’s dancing and you know you doin your thing, and
you might turn and embarrass somebody you take your square [mimicking moving
his hands back and forth] and you screw their head off and pretend you kickin
it down the hall and
MWTV- Right, right, right
CR- And then you put your hand in somebody’s face and drop back, you know, and
that’s “burning”. And that was breaking in its own way. And then as it evolved, you had the locking
dances way out in California
MWTV- Right
CR- and they were doin the pop lockin and down lockin and
MWTV- but that wasn’t in the Bronx so right?
CR-Oh, no, that wasn’t here yet
CR – But if you look at early episodes of Soul Train
MWTV- Right
CR- Right, so Soul Train started
in Chicago, but when they moved to LA,
MWTV- Un Hun
CR- and added people like Rerun [a dancer who later became an actor in the
Black television series Good Times],
MWTV-Right
CR- they were out in California.
MWTV- Right
CR- It was a West Coast kinda thing. And they were doing the popping and
everything. So even the elements of break dancing were incorporated some of
that. But break dancing as you know it today, right, when cats are goin on to
the floor, that’s when you had the original b-boys such as the twins, the “Ni&&a
twins”*-Kevin and Kenny and “Clark Kent”-I can’t remember “Clark Kent’s real
name. But Clark Kent was Clark Kent, ‘cause he looked like Clark Kent. He used
to wear horn rimmed glasses
MWTV- Oh yeah?
CR- Yeah, he used to wear horn rimmed glasses. He was a bad boy on the dance
floor. Uh, “James Bond” . “James Bond” used to do things. He be spinning, then
he’d run around and kick off his shoe like he was down there gonna fall like Get
Smart . Things like that. Cute little things...
So you would be doin…so all these different elements created break dancing.
But, you know, you saw the cats spin on the floor-that’s the Twins, you saw
Clark Kent, myself,
MWTV- Right
CR- the Zulu Kings, there were the Zulu Kings,
MWTV- Right
CR- [naming other original b-boys] Scorpion Mad, A Beat, Sonbeau, you
know, Fukisa
CR- We’re all around the same time.
MWTV – All around the same time
CR- Alright, but I was… the first people I really saw really gettin down like
that on the floor were the Twins…
MWTV- And what was they doin exactly?
CR- Well, I can’t do it for you ‘cause I’m too old. [laughs]
MWTV- Right
CR- But they woulda’ve- cats be like, up rock, and getting it [demonstrates
the back and forth movement with feet crossed in front of each other that
b-boys and b-girls still do]. Like that.
MWTV- Right.
CR- Then, you know, they’d drop down and start spinnin. And I can’t do all that
for you. I wish I could. I’mma little old.
MTWV- Right.
CR- They were spinning around and might do a freeze, and poses and all those
different kinds of things. But, they’re the ones who first started droppin to
the floor. Before that, pretty much, breaking, or burning-like I told you-was
more. It was upright. It was nobody on the floor.
MTWV- Is there a relationship between “burning” and “spade dance”?
CR- I would say “Yeah”. Yeah.
MTWV- Yeah?
CR- I would say “Yeah”.
MTWV- The Spade dance is first, though, right? ‘Cause they were doin that in
the 60s…
CR- Yeah, yeah.
MTWV- the beginning of the spade dance.
CR- The late 60s, the beginning of the 70s- Yeah. I would definitely say that
that’s correct. You know,
MTWV- Um.
CR- You know what I mean is that people
don’t understand- One won’t exist without the other.
MTWV- Um
CR- You know what I mean? Something had
to come first and and ,you know, when a
baby’s born, the baby he don’t look nothing like what he looks like when he’s
grown.
MTWV- Right
CR- But that don’t change the fact that that’s what he was when he was a baby.
MTWV- Right.
CR- You know what I mean?
MTWV- Right.
CR- So, all those elements went into break dancing. And those are the
foundation of Hip Hop and the music.
MTWV- Um.
CR. And
MTWV- Hun.
CR.- And that’s Kool Herc. You know
MTWV- Hun.
CR- And that’s Kool Herc.
MTWV- Okay. Right [laughs] Okay.
CR- That’s right. That’s it.
[a short time later]
MTWV- Me and you. We basically agree. I think we just use maybe different words.
You say, um, that Benjamin Franklin and the light bulb, and
CR- electricity, yeah
MTWV- You sayin, you sayin
CR- Herc and Hip Hop would not be possible without the
culture that existed in gang culture, specifically The Black Spades.
MTWV-Right.
CR- So they laid that ground-that energy.
[a short time later in the same interview]
MTWV- You know the b-boys. You went to the west side
and you saying the first dudes was just up-rockin and that was first.
CR - Yeah, originally “burning.”
MTWV- “Burning”
CR- Yeah. Burning started gettin cats on the floor. Like the Twins would do
everything. They were spinning and doin all that
MTWV- Right.
CR – And, you know, we liked that. And be doin it too. You know.
MTWV- Do you know, who, who… You said the first people to get on the floor…
CR-There may have been some earlier, but that’s me that thinks that The Twins were the [first] ones
to do the spinning.
MTWV- Yeah.
What’s the names? What’s their names?
CR- The Twins. They used to call the the ni--a twins”. I don’ t like that name, but’s what they
called them. That was their name. Kevin and Kenny and their little brothers.
And they’d hang out with us, The Zulus, and everything and Clark Kent. They
were from the Nob [?]. That’s where they were originally from.
MTWV- Webster.
CR- [identifying which neighborhood in the Bronx these dancers were from]
Webster. Yeah.
Nob [?] 69, Webster ah,
MTWV- ah Washington
CR- Washington Ave. Right right.
That’s where they were at. That’s right…Butler, the houses, that’s right.
But that’s the area that they were from.
[later in the same interview]
CR- So when you talking about this to other people, some of the people who are
talking, weren’t there.
MTWV- Right.
CR- They weren’t there. They were in the f--king 80s. We had already stopped [doing
breaking] by that time.
MTWV- So …okay. So you would say, you would say the culture started with the Black Spades.
CR- Yeah. A spark of the culture started with the Black
Spades.
MTWV- a spark of the culture
CR- Yeah. It’s carved out of gang culture…
Yeah Yeah.
And I don’t think that anybody can argue that.
MTWV- Right.
CR- You know. They cannot. Even the Latino gangs. And now, the Latino gangs.
Here’s where I’m with them. I know everybody says Rock Steady and everything.
MTWV- Right.
CR- We had stopped b-boying.
MTWV- Right.
CR- They continued.
MTWV- You say like [19] 81 maybe 81, 82.
CR- 80, 80, 79, 80.
MTWV- What was you’ll dancing?
Did you give up on dancing all together?
CR- No, no. We always danced. We freak danced.
MTWV- The freak?
CR- Yeah, the freak was a crazy damn dance. We’d do the freak dancing in the
70s.
MTWV-Okay.
CR- The freak dance. It was always like
stimulated sex on the dance floor. Yeah. Yeah, the freak dance was crazy.
It was crazy. It was like you get a girl and basically you
start humpin and grindin her to the music. And that is what the freak dance
was.
MTWV- And after you’ll stopped…
CR- Yeah, the freak dance kinda interlapped all of that. We were in to chicks.
I mean, you know, you got a choice between spinning on the ground and getting
your sh-t* on with a chick, which one you gonna do.
MTWV- Un. Hun.
CR. – So you know, the freak dance, and then there was a
dance like the “Patty Duke”.
MTWV- The Patty Duke
CR- The Patty Duke was a joint like this [CR stands in place, leaning slightly
while performing shoulder isolations-shrugging your shoulders from the front to
the back, or from the left to the right while also shaking your butt]. You
were shrugging your shoulders.
MTWV- In the 80s the Patty Duke?!
CR- In the 70s.
MTWV- Right. Okay.
CR- You know what I mean. So we were doin more dances that people in regular
clubs. We weren’t b-boying.
MTWV- When Sugar Hill Gang came out****, you, were you still
break dancing at that time?
CR- No.
MTWV- No?
CR. Naw. We had pretty much stopped by then. But the Latino
kids was.
MTWV- They were the Rock Steady Crew.
CR- They came like 80.
MTWV- 80
CR- 80, 81 you know.
But the Latino cats they kept it up. That’s when they were doing the up-rocking
and going down. You seen them old pictures of them. I can’t even do that sh-t*
today. They were doing some sh-t*, and bending down and doing it all. They were
doing it. But they kept that spark of b-boying and break dancing alive when we
had kinda just outgrown it. And, like I said, who knows. We didn’t know it was
gonna be a worldwide phenomenon.
MTWV- Un hun.
CR- We would have been the ones in the videos doin all that stuff. But, you
know, sometimes its just about being in the right place at the right time. It
ain’t got nothing to do with anything else. And for Rock Steady, they didn’t
have anything to do with it. They were just in the right place at the right
time and they just picked up where we left off. And it’s as simple at that.
They ain’t knockin them. It ain’t anything. That’s just a fact. That’s just
what it is. And it’s cool, but you can’t speak about sh-t* that you don’t know
about.
MTWV- Right. Right.
CR – Unless somebody told you.
MTWV- Right.
CR- We talkin about cats who were here. When I talk about
it, I don’t have anything to gain out of it. Man, I have a Masters degree. I
teach. That’s my world. I ain’t tryin to get a record deal. I don’t give a
sh-t about none of that. What I know is what the history is and give people
their due.
MTWV- Right.
CR- Give people their due. And tell the
history honestly.
MTWV-Okay
[later on in the same interview]
MTWV- Let’s come to the conclusion.
CR- Yeah.
MTWV- Let’s wrap it all up. So we say Hip Hop with the gang culture.
CR- Yeah.
MTWV - Hip Hop culture started with the gang culture
CR- Absolutely
MTWV- The Spades with the Spade dance.
CR- Yeah
MTWV- which was later burning.
CR- burning.
MTWV -which was specifically breaking and burning and breaking each borrowed
from one another.
CR- Yeah and eventually became what is called b-boying.
MTWV- So Spade dancing, what it like turning with it?
CR- Turning and stomping. A lot of stomping and a lot of
turning. What now was probably up-rocking.
A lot of spinning.
MTWV- Show us a little.
CR- I can’t do all of it.
[That segment ends before the demonstration and continues
a little later in the same interview.]
CR- Stomping. Something like that. It gets more elaborate, but I can’t do
all of that because I’m in too much pain to do all that.
MTWV- Right.
CR- It gets more elaborate than that.
MTWV- Right
CR. The main part about about the Spade is the stomping. You
make a loud noise and it goes “Boom Boom” and you know, it’s intimidating and
that’s part of the process. And you know as I said, you start with one thing
and then you add something else and it might not be recognizable by the time
you finish it, but the point is- it started with that."
-snip-
This video ends with this note:
"A Hip Hop History That Does Not Include The Black Spades, Young Spade and Baby
Spades Is Built On Falsehood…
Let’s set the Hip Hop Record Straight."
****
ADDITIONAL COMMENTS FROM OTHER MICHAELWAYNETV VIDEOS ABOUT "BURNING"
The sentences that include references to "burning" are given in italics. Numbers are added for referencing purposes only.
WARNING: These YouTube videos, and other videos in MichaelWaynetv's YouTube account contain profanity and also include a four letter form of the referent that is now largely known as the n word.
From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5oc5bqXwLA&ab_channel=MichaelWaynetv
1. Michael Waynetv, 2016
..."bronx teenagers
was already doing creative dance during the breakdown parts of songs…they
called it "burnin"..they was trying to outdo each other , burn each
other …herc saw that…so when he became a deejay, herc was the one to
exclusively focus on playing the breakdown parts…he would loop break down after
breakdown for hours….so the teenagers who liked that, gravitated to herc
parties…they became known as break boys/b-boys
**
2. ponnell johnson, 2017
… "Also, why does everyone keep referring to rap as "hip
hop", and burning as "break dancing"? We didn't "hip
hop" to each other, we rapped. We didn't "breakdance" (which
is gay)*, we burned. White culture has definitely distorted our art and
lifestyle. They even perverted graffiti promoting no talent so called artists
like Kieth Herring. Every hear the phrase "my bad"? Well the REAL
phrase is "my BAG" which gets it's origin from a James Brown song (I
got a bag of my own, Papa's got a brand new bag). our culture is continuously
being hijacked but we are the enablers. Society takes from us, locks us up,
then re bottles and markets our souls. By the way, when was the last time you
heard the phrase "soul power" or "soul brother" or even
"soul food?"..
-snip-
In this comment “gay” may be homophobic or the word “gay” may also be used as a
negative as discussed in this excerpt from https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/dec/21/the-gay-word-what-does-it-mean-when-young-people-use-it-negatively
“The 'gay' word: what does it mean when young people use it negatively?”
Amy Ashenden, 21 Dec 2015
[Gay] is “A word that originally meant happy and carefree became a neutral
label to describe homosexuality, and ended up being a term used to pinpoint
something people don’t like, find embarrassing, or want to distance themselves
from.”
-end of quote-
That article talked about the harmful consequences of this usage for gay people
and for non-gay people.
**
From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR38Uwkpko8&ab_channel=MichaelWaynetv
Michael Waynetv, 2017
"Dark Angel ..... right agree with most of your comment
...however... you said "the whole culture of hip hop didnt exist at that
point in all it's elements." gotta strongly disagree with that ..yes all
the elements was there with the spades..black spades are the original graffiti
taggers in nyc...spraypainting spades on buildings, floors to mark their
territory...so they had graffiti, street knowledge...street emceeing street
deejayin and street dance before herc even became a deejay... at that time
teenagers would wait for the breakdown parts of songs then "go off"
creating dance routines to "burn" each other..herc saw what the
teenagers in the bronx liked at parties and jams ...so herc became a deejay and
started to focus on looping the breakdown parts of songs over and over...herc
extended the breakdown giving teens a longer time to "burn" each
other...bambaataa came and defined this new way of life ...bambaataa gave it
definition
****
EXCERPT FROM WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ABOUT UPROCK
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprock
"Uprock, or Rocking, as it was originally referred to, also
known as Rock, Rock Dance, Brooklyn Rock, Burning or Freestyle is a competitive
urban street dance, performed to the beats and rhythms of soul, rock and funk
music, but was mostly danced to a specific and exclusive collection of songs
that contained a hard driving beat. An example of such a song is the Rock
classic "It's Just Begun" by noted jazz musician Jimmy Castor. The
dance consists of foot shuffles, spins, turns, drops, freestyle movements and
more characteristically a four-point sudden body movement called
"jerk"
"Use of gestures
Although women participated in this style of dance, it was
usually danced by two men facing each other. The underlying philosophy of
Rocking was to undermine the "opponent" with hand gestures called
"burns". One would "burn" one's opponent with a variety of
these hand gestures that would mimic an action that would be considered
detrimental to the dancer's adversary. Two examples of typical and fundamental
burns are the bow and arrow, and the shotgun. The "winner" of these
mock battles was usually the individual who was able to choreograph and execute
his or her burns creatively and even artistically to the rhythm and syncopation
of the music.
In this sophisticated and rhythmic form of Rock paper scissors, one would have to dance thoughtfully as to not step forward and inadvertently get one's head "sledge hammered". Although it is common knowledge that Uprocking is supposed to be a mock battle, those who are less professional sometimes get carried away with the dance which can result in real violence.
History
Rock dance evolved in New York City circa in the late 1960s.
As Rocking/Uprocking developed, body movements called
"jerks" and hand gestures called "burns" (as defined above
in this article), would be added to emulate a fight against an opposing dancer.
Being skillful in this new dance form, Apache (a Brooklyn dancer) would get the
better of his opponents by skillfully using burns. Dancers throughout New York
City in all Boroughs continued to invent new movements and gestures to create a
street dance. Many gang members began to perform this dance. Rocking/Uprocking
became a competitive dance that caught on very quickly."...
****
ADDENDUM- THE AFRICAN AMERICAN VERNACULAR ENGLISH MEANING OF "TO BURN [SOMEONE]" OR "TO GIVE A BURN"
From http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/burn
"burn
interjection
exclamation upon hearing a particularly witty or impressive
insult.
BURN!
[,,]
-Last edited on Mar 08 2010. Submitted by Dom from Lakebay,
WA, USA on Mar 10 2002.
****
From https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=burn
1. burn
"(1) slang: to disrespect someone (to diss); to
make fun of someone; used by a third party after a first party makes fun of a
second party. Brought back to life by the ever-popular That 70's Show"...
by THE ALL KNOWING AMY May 05, 2004
**
2. burn
"A usually sarcastic and insulting comment, devised to burn
someone's emotions. Brilliant burns are something anyone around, other than the
wimpy victim, should appreciate. If you give one of these ingenius burns, someone
around surely will utter, "Oh BURN!!". One must never say these words
if they are administering the burn. This sucks most of the burning potential
out of it, and, since no one else says "Oh BURN!!", it makes the
victim think that only the burner agrees with the comment, giving little to no
burned emotion, which makes a burn with the burner saying "burn" not
a true burn. Also, when burning, it is best not to actually start the burn,
that is, a burn is more painful if the victim says something normal and the
burner makes a burning comment, or addition to what the victim said, thus
burning the victim. So never say the beginning to what makes a burn; you'll
just sound stupid. So good luck, be quick, don't say "burn" if you're
burning someone, and don't say the starting words to a burn. Now go out and
burn somebody!
WRONG!:
Stupid Guy: "Huh! Hey-hey! Yer momma's fat an' UGLY! OH
YEAH!! BURN!!!!!"
Victim: "Wow. Your house is really small."
Intelligent Person: "Yeah, there's just enough room in
there for me and yo' momma!"
Guy: "OH BURN!!" "
by Mbleh November 04, 2007
****
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