Edited by Azizi Powell
This is Part II of a two part pancocojams series about clapping on the 2 & 4 beats.
Part II showcases a YouTube vlog by Aimee Nolte Music about clapping on the 2 & 4 beats and not on the 1 & 3 beats. My transcription of part of that video is included in that post along with selected comments from these videos are also included in that post.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2020/04/clapping-on-2-4-beat-and-not-on-1-3.html for Part I of this pancocojams series. Part I presents an excerpt from the 2018 online article by "How to Clap in Time"
by Sabrina Peña Young. Some of the videos that are embedded in that article are also included in this post.
The content of this post is presented for musical and cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post. Thanks to all those who are featured in this showcase video and thanks to the publishers of the YouTube videos that are included in this post.
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SHOWCASE VIDEO: Clapping To The Beat: 1 & 3 vs. 2 & 4
Aimee Nolte Music May 1, 2018
A clapping audience can be an enthusiastic, driving force to a band on stage, or a disaster waiting to happen. Let's talk about ALL of it!
-snip-
Aime Nolte is a White American pianist and singer.
Here's my unofficial transcription of a portion of this video log beginning at 12:43 [with my descriptions of whose speaking or some action given in brackets:
[Aimee Nolte says] “Even though sometimes... er... some of us get a bad rap for being the ones to clap one 1 and 3.
[Aimee Nolte smiles and pauses to listen to a small video inserted in the right hand corner of this video. A Black man in the video says]
“Now, our Caucasian brothers and sisters-many of them- clap on the one and three.”
[Aimee Nolte speaks again]
“We probably deserve it. Ah, somehow, those of us with some European ancestry, probably have some kind of a cultural, innate, um, desire or need to clap on the one and three, or to feel the music with that pulse. But it really does depend on what kind of music you’ve grown up listening to where you feel the desire to place that pulse. And, with enough exposure to the right music, anybody can learn to clap on two and four, because sooo much of our music needs a two and four clap. And we actually couldn’’t imagine it if it wasn’t that way. Think about Michael Jackson- [sings and snaps her fingers in a two four beat to: “Pretty baby with the high heels on/give me fever like I never ever known”- that two and four is crucial, the back beat [imitates the back beat with scatting like sounds]- It just give you- it just gives you what you need to feel like your in that song. And if we were to change it to the one and three, that song wouldn’t feel right at all anymore. [sings and finger snaps “Pretty baby with the high heels on/give me fever like I never ever known” with a one and three beat]. Everything’s different. You need that [sings and finger snaps Pretty baby with the” with two and four beat]. So it gives you something to look forward to- Here it goes- OHN! Here it comes, right!” Yeah!”....
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SELECTED COMMENTS FROM THIS VIDEO LOG'S DISCUSSION THREAD
(with numbers added for referencing purposes only)
1. Lawrence Siden, 2018
"Hal Galpert write a book "Forward Motion" in which he said that feeling the beat on 1 and 3 was more "mature". That still doesn't make sense to me. My son played for years in his high school jazz ensemble and came home one day and told me that "friends just don't let friends clap on 1 and 3" (he saw it on aT-shirt). It's also true that Europeans really feel the beat on 1 and 3 but everyone knows they were born square and have to overcome it {Im still working on it}."
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2. davedrowsy, 2018
"First of all, this is a fantastic video. I don't mean to detract from that in any way.
But I feel I have to point out that in the examples where clapping on 1 & 3 is supposedly better, the "1" and "3" Aimee is hearing are really "1" and "2," at a tempo half of what Aimee is hearing. That makes the "2" and "4" she's hearing simply the "and's" of every beat.
For example:
10:40 Bennie & the Jets, with crowd clapping. This is NOT clapping on the 1 & 3, in my opinion, but in fact, clapping on 1, 2, 3 & 4!
10:46 Bennie & the Jets, with Aimee clapping on what she calls the "2" and "4." I would call this clapping on all the "and's," which of COURSE sounds off!
12:16 Super Rich Kids, with Aimee clapping on what she calls the "offbeat" -- ironically, this is actually true! She's clapping on the "and" of every beat, which is, in fact, the offbeat. Of course that sounds weird! If you wanted to clap on beats 2 and 4, the claps would fall like this: (12:07) "Too many bo(CLAP)ttles of this wine we can't pro(CLAP)nounce." Clapping on 2 and 4 like this would sound absolutely appropriate and "in the groove."
Now, granted, tempo and time signature are always open to interpretation. I'm hearing "Bennie & the Jets" as a slow 4/4, around 70 bpm, with claps on every downbeat -- beats 1, 2, 3, and 4. Aimee is hearing it at a brisk 140 bpm, with claps on beats 1 and 3. Both interpretations are correct, strictly speaking. But as a drummer, I feel it's more accurate to describe the tempo and time signature of a piece of music based on the assumption that the snare drum is being played on beats 2 and 4. If you follow this rule, then my take above is correct for both "Bennie & the Jets" and "Super Rich Kids."
My point? Aimee's counterexamples to clapping on 2 & 4 don't hold water, and you should ALWAYS clap on 2 and 4! Seriously, just don't ever clap on beats 1 and 3, unless you're at a hoedown."
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REPLY
3. Aimee Nolte Music, 2018
"Good points. And that basically holds with Hal Galper’s explanation"
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4. albrecht hügli, 2018
"1 and 3 is the bass drum, 2 and 4 the drum stick or high-hat.
aimee's examples for 1 and 3 are convincing. I would prefer 2 and 4 to "let the sunshine in" (hair) and "christ you know I love you" (jesus christ superstar)"
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5. 장성환, 2018
"I'm not sure if there's much validity to it, but people with more classical music roots tend to "feel" claps on 1 and 3, and obviously more modern music falls on offbeats, jazz in particular.
I personally don't like clapping at all. People always get it incredibly off and it's actually the crowd "becoming" a part of the performance. Interesting topic, great video" !
**
REPLY
6. Shiina Ringo, 2018
"This. A thousand times this. In every particular.
This video is very American. Meanwhile if you ask, oh say, a German or a Russian to clap on the backbeat, they won't even know it's a thing. They will look at you like you're mental. You try clapping on the backbeat to Mozart or Shostakovich, I'll wait. Heck, just why do you think it's called the BACKbeat in the first place.
Alas, entire libraries have been written on the subject. Yet here we are in the year 2018, back to square one.
Clapping on the backbeat is like measuring temperature in Fahrenheit, or body parts in inches. It's not that it's right or wrong or better or worse, it's that whether or not you do it, whether or not you like it, and whether or not you promote it, is, above all, a purely historical, cultural thing. (And not realizing it's a cultural thing is in turn a cultural thing of its own.) Aimee does touch on that, but ultimately places her accents elsewhere. How fitting.
-snip-
Here's a definition of and information about "backbeat" from https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/backbeat
"a steady pronounced rhythm stressing the second and fourth beats of a four-beat measure"...First Known Use of backbeat: 1928, in the meaning defined above
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7. Pavel Zubkov, 2018
"Come on, musical trends are universal these days. If the backbeat doesn't originate from here doesn't mean we don't know no music other than Shostakovich."
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8. Leif Burman, 2018
"In sweden, the tendency is for the audience to clap on every beat, which can be really annoying as it destroys both 1-3-grooves and 2-4-grooves."
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9. Jeff Olmsted Music, 2018
"I had to speak sternly to my (mostly white) church people about this, after they messed up "We'll Understand It Better By and By"."
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10. Christopher Martinez, 2018
"I had a similar experience except sadly it was my big band director counting off a really swingin' tune on the 1 and 3. It really confused the rhythm section quite a bit."
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11. live2groove, 2018
"Friends don't let friends clap on 1&3"
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12. psa110, 2018
"I like your advice to not clap unless invited to do so. It is very annoying to have people clapping and drowning out the people you really want to hear, changing the tenor of the song."
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13. Cadenza La pianiste, 2018
"I've learnt to clap on 2 and 4 when I learnt swing dancing, but I still need to tap all 4 times with my foot to not get mixed up and sustain my clapping on 2 and 4.
Rythm is really a thing I have hard time with.
I'm not sure if I'll be able one day to do it without tapping my foot."...
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14. Diane Nalini, 2018
"Great video Aimee. I love how you wrapped up on a positive note. That guy clapping on 1 and 3 must have felt so mortified when the band stopped. I agree with you on avoiding clapping... I'd rather the audience not clap unless we invite them to join along. It can be tough on the rhythm section when the audience claps, even if they are on the right beats, because they tend to speed up!"
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REPLY
15. Diane Nalini, 2018
"(I mean the audience tends to speed up, not the rhythm section, although it can be tough to resist the pull when the crowd is large! ☺)"
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16. Kevin Shivers, 2018
"OMG!! What a satisfying post! Thank you! I'm a lifelong drummer and this topic is so fundamental and passionate for me. I've got a friend who claps on 1&3 and it's the biggest buzzkill. Always makes me laugh - and he has no idea! It should be 2&4 claps by default (IF you don't look like a nerd). 1&3 claps (only at a hodown haha) 2&4 SNAPS in a small jazz venue (but that's def trying too hard haha). I LOVE the useful difference between the two for internal metronome frameworks. Great advice. Love all your examples..."
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17. bob wilson, 2018
"2 & 4 used to be the contrary beat, now it's conventional, so the 1 & 3 is the contrary beat. I was snapping my fingers to Summer Wind on the one and three. A piano player I knew said something. I told him that was where it was on that tune. And I still think so. I know drummers who HATE being locked into the 2 & 4.all night."
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18. Karl Gonzales, 2018
"Love this video. One of the most depressing things in germany as a musician. Everyone is clapping on 1 and 3. No feeling und understanding for groove at all..."
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19. taxisteve929, 2018
"Great Aimee. I finally got my brain tuned into clapping on 2&4 and now every song I hear is a waltz, and I wind up clapping like a singer who still can't find the key halfway through the first lyric!! All kidding aside, can this go to Nursery Rhymes and are white more apt to follow the vocal accents while blacks follow the music, and without vocals, the whites get a little lost?
A good POP song to test yourself and VERY EASY song to clap both ways without getting lost or falling back to your natural tendency, (and I would like to see 1/3 and 2/4 people try both) is "The Locomotion", Little Eva....but sing it to yourself as their is a big beat and even clapping in the tune that will almost force you to what the writer considers the proper way. So just sing it, and to go with 1&3, start clapping on "EV"ery, and 2&4 start on "BO"dies..."Everybodies doing a brand new dance, now.......cmon baby, do the locomotion....etc....funny...listening to different versions
Little Eva version.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNNW0SPkChI
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20. Paul Matarazzo, 2018
"i love how much you love music and your passion for all aspects of it. this was so enjoyable and educational to watch :) thanks!!
I've struggled with people clapping wrong/ 2 and 4 guys!! come on... love the way you deal with it.
this should be included in standard music ed.
1 and 3 for smoothing licks ; cool tip.
**
21. Craig Browning, 2018
"Duke Ellington said clapping on 1&3 is "Considered Aggressive." "
**
22. VeryUs Mumblings, 2018
"I've been waiting forever for someone to ask me about a good one -three groove. It's "Sunshine of your Love" by Cream with Ginger Baker on the drums!!! :)"
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23. Adam hakim, 2018
"Interesting study of grove. How does this apply to edm? It makes sense that the original rock was country switched to a 2 and 4 grove. But I think the edm vibe is 1-2-3-4? So people can go anywhere while they move."
-snip-
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_dance_music
“Electronic dance music (EDM), also known as dance music, club music, or simply dance,[1] is a broad range of percussive electronic music genres made largely for nightclubs, raves and festivals. It is generally produced for playback by DJs who create seamless selections of tracks, called a mix, by segueing from one recording to another.[2] EDM producers also perform their music live in a concert or festival setting in what is sometimes called a live PA.”...
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REPLY
24. Robert Hart, 2018
"EDM is indeed 4 beats of equal weight. I think your equating the stresses back to dance is important. Mid century American dances (lindy-hop, jive, etc.) need that drop on 2 & 4 for the dances to work. Some traditional dances, like Scottish reels need the four equal beats (and there is a branch of Scottish folk music that incorporates 90's and EDM grooves into traditional music). Since a lot of popular music is for dancing to, then how you move to the dance affects how the groove is built."
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25. JoyceMBC, 2018
"That's the reason I've learned to do a really loud clap... Too convince everyone else to clap on 2 and 4. 😊
But how about applauding solos? It blocks the start of the next solo... But I also want the artist to know I liked it. Can one just applaud the really good stuff, or should you always applaud every solo in a tune, no matter the "quality"?"
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REPLY
26. Aimee Nolte Music, 2018
"I’m a fan of really letting people know if you dug their solo. The next soloist gets that the first part of their solo won’t really be heard. :)"
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27. Bill Woo, 2018
"Depends. These feel 1-3: Satin Doll, Ipanema, Wave, A Love Supreme, Night and Day, String of Pearls...if someone was even inclined to clap to any of these.
These feel more 2-4: A Train, Fever, Off Minor, Goody Goody, In The Mood, Minnie the Moocher. Hernando's Hideaway :)
I feel neither: on 99.5% of my collection, including every single ballad. It is impossible to "clap" to Billie Holiday, period. How do you even nod along to Nardis or Giant Steps, much less clap? And Oleo hurts my head to even think about it.
And I agree, unless requested, don't do it. It will never be requested in jazz, methinks :)
**
REPLY
28. Bill Woo, 2018
"I'm trying out snapping to Satin Doll on 2 and 4 and it's so wrong."
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REPLY
29. Aimee Nolte Music, 2018
"You can’t put any standards into this discussion. They can all be played in any style. A Train is a killer samba. Satin Doll sounds great as a bossa, etc. and they’ve all been recorded countless times. It’s a discussion for popular music. Unless we are talking about how to clap over a swingin jazz groove, in which case, 2&4 wins every time."
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REPLY
30. Muzikman127, 2019
"If you’ll pardon the language. I just love that tune. Maybe it’s because I’m from England and one of the “caucasian brothers and sisters” though hahaha"
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31. Peter Jansen, 2018
"I like Elton John (I play a few of his songs on the piano) but for some reason the rhythm of Bennie and the Jets always felt weird (different than what I was used to) to me. I guess now I know why: the 1-3 beat. I will keep this in the back of my mind and experiment with 1-3. :)"
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32. Harvey Rope, 2018
"I was at a school concert the other day and as a final closing song they played I wish it could be Christmas every day, all the parents began to clap on 1 and 3 resulting in the band completely losing it and subsequently the group of kids singing awkwardly as they lost the song. Cringeworthy. Don’t clap on 1&3 kids"
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33. Kevin Shaw, 2018
"Great video Aimee! 1 & 3 clappers drive me nuts! I will sometimes drum on all four beats in a bridge and get the audience clapping along, then subtly pull them over to 2 and 4. And for the record, I have been known to clap on the "uh" of 3 to see how ethnic my audience is."
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34. Kevin Goess, 2018
"Haha, yes, Europeans on 1 & 3. I've been a Morris dancer for a couple years now, and one thing that I've never forgotten was at a workshop when the band was leading and the teacher exclaimed in ecstasy, "Dig that funky English beat!". 1&3, that's what it's all about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV5qFUC0Suc&t=0m31s"
-snip-
That link leads to a video entitled "Knuckles (Pipe & Bowl Morris, Dickens, 11/29/15)".
One of the Morris dancers leads the audience in clapping at the beginning of that video.
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35. Tim Beaton, 2018
"If you are in the UK, every time the audience of Strictly Come dancing clap along, they are ALWAYS clapping on 1 and 3.
Drives me up the wall....Yes, I'm a snob. I admit it."
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36. TheBoyWhoWonders, 2018
"I live in Germany and in Germany everybody claps on 1 & 3. Actually, only 10% claps on 1 & 3. Usually, everybody claps on 1, 2, 3 and 4."
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37. Sorelys Sandoval, 2018
"Omg Jaime Altozano talked about this a moth ago.
https://youtu.be/SjJxG6L3_fQ
Both great videos :)"
-snip-
That video is in Spanish.
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38. BeanTube, 2018
"The square train to clap town 😂 That was good."
-snip-
Early in the video, the vlogger referred to a person at a small Jazz bar clapping 1 and 3 as “hopping on the square train to clap town."
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39. Tim Beaton, 2018
"The Benny and the Jets song really hammers the 1 in every bar, so that sort of explains what works with the 1 and 3"
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40. paxwallacejazz, 2018
"One and 3 feels more march like . not hip 2nd line march but the other march."
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41. loungefly1, 2018
"Japanese people almost always clap on 1 & 3. Seriously."
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42. Ali Asreco, 2018
"I'm in France....kids only learn to clap on one and three....Nobody can clap here on 2 and 4..."
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43. N Ballweg, 2018
"in germany people ALWAS clap on 1&3 and it drives me nuts, also they will clap during the performances and yell "whooo" sometimes. I mean i dont watch TV anyways anymore but back when i used to Talent shows and stuff where basically unwatchable since its so annoying"
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44. Speckis, 2018
"Aren't old jazz-musicians always stating they were dancing to jazz in the beginning? That it was originally dance music."
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REPLY
45. Aimee Nolte Music, 2018
"Correct. 🙌🏼"
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46. Lyle Chipperson, 2019
"You couldn't play on 1 and 3 cause white people feel that naturally and black people naturally go to 2 and 4.. call me racist but it's a thing.."
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REPLY
47. Aimee Nolte Music, 2019
"Most of the time...but I just got off of a cruise and saw plenty of black people clapping on 1 and 3. 😂"
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48. Missy Rey, 2019
"It is never okay clap during any performance unless the artist invites the audience."
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49. Gabriel Morton, 2019
"I was at a smaller intimate jazz show in NYC many years ago. One woman at the front of the audience was really feelin' it and began clapping very loud on 1 and 3. The room's attention just shifted to her, and she was smiling ear to ear clapping away."
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50. Jeffrey Rainey, 2019
"Thank you, Aimee! I really learned something watching this video. Or as you said, I really changed my mindset and became aware of where the pulse is. As a blind person it's not uncommon for people to come to the conclusion that my sense of hearing is heightened, when in reality your sense of hearing is neither greater nor less in comparison. Don't believe me? There were sighted profs in my college who are producers and were picking up on details I wasn't even aware of; but it didn't take long to pick up on them. Your ears are hearing, all the time. But because vision is inherently the dominant sense, that's where your attention is drawn to immediately.
Right, that's me off my soapbox, thanks for making this video."
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51. FREEdeadTREE, 2020
"I don’t mean to be racist at all with what I’m about to say so don’t take it that way people. but growing up in church with my grandma on piano I always noticed at the black church it’s a different count than at the white church. Every since I was a kid I always noticed that."
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52. Michael Perfect, 2020
"french people clap on 1 & 3 at all times (I'm french)"
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This concludes Part II of this two part pancocojams series.
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