Edited by Azizi Powell
This pancocojams post is part of an ongoing focus in this blog on the cultural influence of Prince Hall Masons on Black culture.*
This post presents excerpts of a 2005 hbcusports.com [historically Black college sports] forum discussion about Prince Hall Masonry & historically Black Greek letter fraternities & sororities.
Explanations of some terms found in these comments are given in the Addendum below. Additions and corrections are welcome.
The content of this post is presented for historical and cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who have been and are now associated with Prince Hall Masons and the Order Of Eastern Star (PHA).Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
-snip-
*Click the Prince Hall Mason tag found below for additional posts in this series.
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EXCERPTS FROM A 2005 FORUM DISCUSSION: PRINCE HALL MASONRY AND HISTORICALLY BLACK GREEK LETTER FRATERNITIES AND SORORITIES
[Pancocojams Editor's Note:
The title of this 2005 hbcusports.com forum discussion is "how the great 8 comes from prince hall masonry". "The great 8" was an un-offical referent for four historically Black Greek letter fraternities and four historically Black Greek letter sororities that are members of the National Pan-Hellenic Council (nphc). When Iota Phi Theta Fraternity was admitted to the National Pan-Hellenic Council in 1997 the referent for those fraternities and sororities was changed to the "Divine Nine". Click https://www.nphchq.org/quantum/our-history/ information about the nphc. A list of nphc members, excluding Iota Phi Theta Fraternity, is found in the comment given as #1 below.
With regard to references to the Order Of The Eastern Star (OES), found below, here's information from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hall_Order_of_the_Eastern_Star
"The Prince Hall Order of the Eastern Star is the Prince Hall affiliated organization. It functions a predominantly African-American equivalent of the mainstream Order of the Eastern Star.[1]....Historically, these women were the wives, mothers, sisters, daughters and granddaughters of Prince Hall Masons. In 1980 there were 175,000 members."
The selected comments from that forum are given as is, with the exception of "new member" or other citations that are found below the commenter's screen name and information about quotes within those comments. The numbers in parenthesis are added to these selected comments for referencing purposes only.
From https://www.hbcusports.com/forums/threads/how-the-great-8-comes-from-princehall-masonry-oes.35727/
How "the Great 8" comes from PrinceHall Masonry/OES
Thread starter Dawgpound97-01 Start date Feb 20, 2005
[1] Dawgpound97-01
Feb 20, 2005
#1
"I had no idea that Prince Hall masonry is considered the "Father of all" Greeks of:
Alpha Phi Alpha
Kappa Alpha Psi
Omega Psi Phi
Phi Beta Sigma
And that the Order of the Eastern Stars (PHA) is considered the "Mother of all" Greeks of:
Alpha Kappa Alpha
Delta Sigma Theta
Zeta Phi Beta
Sigma Gamma Rho
95% of the founders of the Great 8 are Prince Hall Masons or Eastern stars.
I had NO CLUE,until I got raised in to masonry a year ago_One of the Past Master's of my lodge was telling me about it,and I started to do research on it a little bit (I didnt research on stuff I shouldn't know). I know quite a few people that's A Phi A and Omega Psi Phi that are masons (alot of them in my lodge),and I know a couple AKA's that's OES.........everything started to make sense once I noticed that people ARE members of a Great 8 frat/soror and a Mason/Star,especially when I transfered from a community college in Michigan to TnSU this past fall.Alot of people say that Alpha and Omega are the CLOSEST two frats to masonry,and AKA is the closest to Eastern Star (dont take MY word on it...just something I heard numerous of times). It's amazing....and you start to "look" at things different if you're a mason or eastern star but not a member of one of the Great 8(like myself)....you can see the character within it all.I see things all the time that the great 4 frats do that came from masonry,and it's CRAZY!"
**
[2] silentrage
Delta Girl
Feb 21, 2005
#2
Dawgpound97-01 said:
[comment quote] "Does anybody know of any books or websites that talk about the comparison of Masonry and the Great 8?
And how did you first "notice" the simmularities(sp.) about masonry/OES and the Great 8?" [end of comment quote]
"This book offeres an interesting history about the start of fraternal organizations: Black Greek 101 : the culture, customs, and challenges of Black fraternities and sororities by Walter M. Kimbrough. It was published in 2003. Kimbrough is considered an expert on the history of black fraternal orgainzations. He is currently the president of Philander Smith College in Little Rock, AR.
More info about the book: http://inside.fdu.edu/fdupress/04050501.html"
**
[3] Seeing Spots
Joyful Woman!
Feb 21, 2005
#3
"I don't know what you mean about the similiarities are "crazy". I suppose you mean that it is "surprising" that a lot of things they do a similar.
Actually, we no longer say GREAT 8, since Iota Theta Phi was granted membership in the National Pan-Hellenic Council, November 12, 1996. We are collectively referred to as the DIVINE 9. There is a book about the 9 Greek letter African American organizations, entitled The Divine Nine: The History of African American Faternities and Sororities by Lawrence C. Ross, Jr. Although he doesn't include a discussion of Masons and Eastern Stars, he gives great information about the Divine Nine. :tup:"
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[4] ABE
Aug 28, 2005
#8
"For further reading, check out Secret Societies. It should be in your public library (if not request a loan from a participating library). You will see how societies have been formed over the centuries and how they take similar form in their rituals, etc. It even has a section on the Ku Klux Klan. I was rolling when I looked at some of their "rituals" and "initiations".
Back on topic. It may be true that men and women who were masonically affiliated were the founders of fraternities and sororities, but one should not be so zealous in the pursuit of glorifying Masonry that he or she downplays or tries to make assumptions on the other groups. I believe both groups are great and they do tend to overlap populations at times."
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[5] Suge
Mar 1, 2006
#10
"Why is it that so many masons get so excited about this bit of information. I just get tired of some mason trying to compare the greeks to masons. There may be many similar things about the two groups, based on the history of many of the founders, but they are not the same and should not be compared as such. hell you could say the masons had influence on alot of things in the culture, why so much focus on the greeks?
As for influence, masons, military, and many other things have influenced the forming of BGLO's. But if you being the "father' makes you feel better, then so be it. I have ten founders, 11 charter members of my chapter, and that's where it ends for me."
**
[6] Suge
Mar 1, 2006
#12
"Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que."
**
[7] SONNY
The Future of Omega!!!!
Mar 2, 2006
#15
Suge said:
"[comment quote] Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que.[end of comment quote]
:smh:
Suge I feel you on that. Why compare. Do your thing, and Ima do mine.
When did Masons started doing party hops at the clubs?????"
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[8] AAMU Alum
Mar 2, 2006
#16
Suge said:
"[comment quote] Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order.
That was always my understanding, too.[end of comment quote]
quote:When did Masons started doing party hops at the clubs?????
That's nothing! When I was on The Hill, there was one year that they wanted to step in the Homecoming Step show! :eek:"
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[9] Dr. Sweet NUPE
Mar 2, 2006
#18
"I became a Prince Hall Mason in August of 1992, like my father, both grandfathers, and all four great grandfathers. I remember seeing my father leave the house with this black brief case once a month and never knew where he was going and never could find the case anywhere in the house. This was my foundation in LIFE. I joined KAPSI because I....well that will only be shared with my PHIs!!!!"
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[10]
Dr H..
Mar 3, 2006
#20
"Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que.
True, decades ago the Masons, Elks and OES were three of the organizations individuals could become a member of, without attending college.
While some college students may think the Masons are a fraternity and the OES is a Sorority, they are not. Contrary to popular belief, the Masons did not organize any College Fraternities, nor did the OES organize any Sororities.
There are similarities in the rituals of the Masons, College Frat's, Elks, KKK and so on. If you continue to research, you will find that the Masons and OES has it roots deeply imbedded in Ancient African Secret Societies, in fact the Masons goes back to the Building of King Solomon?s Temple. The Masons started as an organization for Brick or Stone Masons. Similiar to the modern day Labor Union
I was raised in 1971"
**
[11] Miami Jag
Mar 15, 2006
#22
Suge said:
[comment quote] Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que. [end of comment quote]
I hear ya Suge.
I pledged Sigma in 90 and I became a Mason in 92. (PHA)"
**
https://www.hbcusports.com/forums/threads/how-the-great-8-comes-from-princehall-masonry-oes.35727/page-2
[12] Dr H..
Mar 27, 2006
#27
[comment quote]"I bet you most if not all of the founders were members of their respective fraternity/sorority before they became a mason or eastern star.[end of comment quote]
I disagree, a majority of the men, especially if they had been in the military or their father or grandfather were a member of the Lodge, became Mason while in the Military or in High School. Afterwards, they attended college and organized or pledged a fraternity.
While I was at TN State, I helped raise several APA, Q and Sigmas.
I cannot speak for the OES."
**
[13] buckwheat
Mar 28, 2006
#30
[comment quoted]...
Sonny, I do know some bruhs that became Masons after crossing the burning sands."
**
[14] JR
Apr 5, 2006
#34
MightyDog said
[comment quote]: As a 33rd Degree Mason, it is always interesting to read what individuals think about the order.
Do we have anyone on the boad that is a member of the Commander of The Rite?[end of comment quote]
MD, it is interesting to read comments from non- Masons. While I don't get hyped as someone said about Masons being founding members of these Fraternities. I have to laugh when I hear folks say that Masonry has not influenced their rituals and other things within their said organizations. They all have a Masonic overtone but yet were not meant to be any relation to Masonry. I can remember being raised PHA in 92 with a couple of my KKPSI frats from Morehouse who also happened to both be Alphas. We were all like these rituals sure seem similiar to what we experienced pledging PSI and for them pledging PSI and Alpha. The correlation was the founders who happened to be Masons just used what they already knew and incorporated some of it in the rituals of the Fraternities they were creating. Nothing more and nothing less. Masonry is on a way different level than the fraternities and sororities ever will be. So it is no comparison.
Now for Masons wanting to step and all that other non sense. Well I will say this. Just like you have Alphas, Omegas, and Kappas that misrepresent your organizations. The same has happened in Masonry as well. Some do not represent like they are supposed to. That is one of the reasons I waited to be raised after college. The youngsters don't always get it. That is in all organizations. A certain maturity level has to develop. Just my 2 cents."[end of comment quote]
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[15] hansummm
Apr 11, 2006
#35
"[comment quote]
Well Bruh Dr H I am afraid that you don't know what you are talking about. because every founder of A phi A was a memeber of Prince Hall. In fact they were founded in a lodge in Ithica, NY before requesting a charter at Cornell U.
That's just one example"
**
[16] yazeed1906
Apr 28, 2006
#38
from http://www.skipmason.com/hm/hm21.htm
“MASONIC AND OTHER FRATERNAL
TIES TO THE SEVEN JEWELS
By Skip Mason
Many brothers have questioned whether or not the founders were Masons or members of some other fraternal lodges. My research has found documentation that Jewels Robert Harold Ogle and George Biddle Kelley were. It is also speculated though not documented at this time that Chapman, Tandy and Callis may have been also through circumstantial evidence. Let me deal with each one. Chapman, much older than the others by as much as ten years owned a brick yard and restaurant and was far more established in the city outside of Ithaca called Spencer. Keep in mind that it was Chapman who secured the Masonic Hall. Jewel Tandy's father was the Grand master of several lodges in Lexington, Kentucky so it is likely that he would have been a member. The lack of authentication regarding Callis's membership in a lodge still perplexes me. There is no mention of his affiliation in a Masonic Lodge in Wesley's book Henry Arthur Callis: Life and Legacy. Callis's father, the Reverend Henry Jesse Callis was a member of the Odds Fellows. After having gone through his papers at the Moorland Spingarn, there too was no indication that he was Masonic member, though many brothers are quick to say that he was. Ogle was a National Officer for the Benevolent Protective Order of the Elks. Jewel Kelley was very active in Masonic circles. He served as First master of the Mt. Moriah Lodge No 25 in Troy, District Deputy Grandmaster of the Grand Lodge of he State of New York and was a 33rd degree Mason of Utica Consitory of Scottish Rites. Brother also keep in mind that C.C. Poindexter witnessed the first initiation. He had not disbanded from the group at that point. It is possible that he may have been a Mason too. (I AM WORKING ON AN ARTICLE ON POINDEXTER FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE DYING TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS ON OMEGA.)
The four of them (Jewels Kelley, Callis, Chapman and Tandy) served on the first initiation committee. Kelley and Callis both worked in white fraternity houses at Cornell and was privy to the secret documents shared to them by the members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon and Beta Theta fraternities. Their research combined with Tandy and Chapman's participation helped to constitute the first ritual. Know that the ritual changed over the years. Later brothers such as Eugene Kinckle Jones and Roscoe C. Giles(Alpha's second president worked on the ritual). If you recall, Jones rewrote the ritual by memory.
*In my research I rely on primary and secondary source material for documentation. To affirm their Masonic affiliations, sources such as a biography, obituary or funeral program would have indicated those ties. As I have stated in the obituaries for Callis, Chapman, Jones, Murray or Tandy, there is no mention of their having been a member of a lodge or any fraternal rites being done at the funeral. If a brother has other documentation, please let me know!”
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[17] Dr. Sweet NUPE
Aug 17, 2006
#42
"In all honesty no one but Masons should know that you are a Mason. That's why I participated very little in this conversation. I feel it is so dumb to compare SOCIAL frats to the Masons and vice versa to the sororities. Their differences are SO phenomenal. Well, I can only speak for KAPSI and Prince Halls Masons.
To Be One Means to Ask One and quite frankly no one asked. Plus I wouldn't tell you over email anyway.
So carry on..."
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ADDENDUM: EXPLANATIONS OF SOME TERMS FOUND IN THESE COMMENTS [revised September 6, 2019]
AKA = Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc.
APA= Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. [also given in these comments as A phi A]
BGLO= Black Greek letter organizations
Elks = the name of a non-Masonic secret organiztion
frat = fraternity
Greeks = [members of] Greek letter fraternities or Greek letter sororities
hop = a performance movement style most closely associated with members of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity Inc, sometimes [erroneously?] referred to as "stepping"
KAPSI = Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc.
Nupe = referent for a member of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity
Odd Fellows - the name of a non-Masonic secret organization
OES - the Order of Eastern Star
para [abbreviation for "paraphernalia", also given as "nalia"] - (in this context means) clothing and other miscellaneous items that are associated with a particular fraternity, sorority, or other secret fraternal organization
PHA = Prince Hall Affiliated [affiliated with Prince Hall masonry]
ques = member of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity, Inc., also given as "q"
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Sigmas = Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, inc.
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step = perform a fraternity or sorority steppin[g] routine
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was raised [got raised] = became a full member of Prince Hall masonry; [This term is the same or similar to the term "crossed over" that is used by members of historically Black Greek letter organizations [BGLO] where it is short for "crossed the burning sands"
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