Edited by Azizi Powell
Latest revision - April 25, 2025
Although the woman in the the bawdy songs is usually named "Lulu" or "Lula", in some of those songs, the woman is named "Rosie".
Information about "Lulu" songs is included in this post along with information about "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" (also known as "The Lady With The Alligator Purse" or other titles.
"Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and "Miss Susie Had A Steamboat" are two children's recreational rhymes that were heavily influenced by the bawdy "Lulu" songs. In those two recreational rhymes, the woman may be named "Susie" or "Mary" or have some other common two syllable English language female name.
The content of this post is presented for folkloric purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
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Excerpt #1
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bang_Bang_Lulu
"Bang Bang Lulu" is a traditional American song with many variations. It derives from older songs most commonly known as "Bang Bang Rosie" in Ireland, "Bang Away Lulu" in Appalachia,[1] and "My Lula Gal" in the West.[2][6] The form "Bang Bang Lulu" became widespread in the United States from its use as a cadence during the World Wars. The song uses the tune of "Goodnight, Ladies". The modern version was produced by Marty Munsch in late 1995 and was penned by The Traumaschool Dropouts a punk rock outfit from Albany NY who gained international acclaim for its release.
Traditional song
All versions concern a woman and her various lovers. The early forms were sometimes very directly crude, violent, or infanticidal.[7] Published versions probably drastically understate the song's popularity,[1] particularly since the first mentions allude to 78[8] or 900[9] additional verses unfit for printing. Robert Gordon, the first head of the Library of Congress's Archive of American Folk Song, included his variants of Lulu among the "Inferno" section which was excluded from the library's general collection for its "bawdy and scatological subject matter".[10]
One verse appeared in Owen Wister's 1902 novel on p. 96 The Virginian:[8]
If you go to monkey with my Looloo girl,
I'll tell you what I'll do:
I'll carve out your heart with my razor, AND
I'll shoot you with my pistol, too—
Nine appeared in Carl Sandburg's 1927 American Songbag among its "Railroad and Work Gangs" songs, including Wister's and:[9]
Roy Acuff and his Crazy Tennesseans recorded "When Lulu's Gone" under the pseudonym of the Bang Boys in 1936.[13] Another version—"Lulu"—was recorded by Oscar Brand on his 1958 Old Time Bawdy Sea Shanties. Verses from this song also developed into "Roll in My Sweet Baby's Arms", recorded by Bill Monroe and Flatt & Scruggs and many others after them.[2]."
Military cadences
Most military cadences suggested explicit rhymes but skipped back to the chorus rather than complete them"...
-snip-
The portion of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes that refers to a mother throwing her baby in a body of water "to see if he could swim" could be interpreted as infanticide (Lulu being described as being a whore who was trying to get rid of an unwanted baby. AND / OR The word and the end of one line and at the beginning of the next line provide opportunities for children to say something risque and taboo with "plausible deniability" and therefore with little or no consequences..
However, it's also probable that most younger children chanting "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" or "Miss Susie Had A Steamboat" recreational rhymes that developed from the Lulu songs, understood/understand the real implication of these rhymes or understand what those ending or beginning words really mean.
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2023/11/chronological-documentation-of-lulu.html for the closely related pancocojams post entitled "Chronological Documentation Of "Lulu" ("Bang Bang Lulu") Bawdy Songs In Books & Records (1902 to 2002)".
Also, click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/10/similarities-differences-between-bang.html for the 2013 pancocojams post entitled "Similarities & Differences Between "Bang Bang Lulu" & "Miss Lucy Had A Steamboat".
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Excerpt #2
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=84511
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bang Bang Rosie
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:07 PM
..."Guy Logsden records about a dozen verses, in The Whorehouse Bells Were Ringing: and other songs cowboys sing, for "My Lulu Gal." Alternate titles noted include "Lula," "My Lulu," "Bang Away, My Lulu," Bang, Bang Lulu," "She Is a Lulu," "and many more."
Collection notes indicate the first printed reference to "Lulu" in cowboy song is from 1902, when Owen Wister has the hero in The Virginian sing one verse. The verse used is commonly known, but Wister stated "that the other 78 verses were unprintable."
Logsdon also relates that "Lulu/Lula" was immensely popular with the military personnel of many nations during the WWI era, and that Anthony Hopkins in Songs From the Front and Rear (1979) and C.W. "Bill" Getz in The Wild Blue Yonder (1986) include "the uncensored Lula known and loved by servicemen."...
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Excerpt #3
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=84511
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bang Bang Rosie
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:23 PM
Gordon's Inferno collection tends to support this."
-snip-
Read information about Gordon's Inferno collection in Example #1 of the "Partial Examples Of Lulu Songs" section this pancocojams post.
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Excerpt #4
From http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080410082538AA8QrHv "What is your favorite Cadence?
..."Then there were the many dozens of verses of Bang Bang Lulu, some of which are even repeatable in mixed company, but not many of them. We once got in trouble marching along to some of the racier verses"...
-snip-
"Racy" [racier"] means mildly sexually suggestive. That adjective has nothing to do with the noun "race".
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"LULU" SONGS CONNECTION TO THE CHILDREN'S RECREATIONAL RHYME "MISS LUCY HAD A BABY"
Excerpt #1
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABang_Bang_Lulu
"Schoolyard version]
"It seems very, very likely that some version of this ["Lulu"] song
morphed into "Miss Lucy had a baby" and (/from there) "Miss
Susie had a steamboat" "
-snip-
"morphed into" = "developed into"
Update April 4, 25, 2025
Here are two examples of "Miss Lucy" ("Miss Lucy Had A Baby") recreational rhyme that the contributors categorized as a hand clapping rhyme
Example #1
from https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sprite/jmp.html#lbaby Clapping Rhymes and Jumprope Jingles (April 1997)
"Miss Lucy had a baby,
His name was Tiny Tim,
She put him in the water,
To see if he could swim.
He drank up all the water,
He ate up all the soap,
He tried to eat the bathtub
but it wouldn't go down his throat.
Miss Lucy called the doctor,
The doctor called the nurse,
The nurse called the lady
with the alligator purse.
In walked the doctor,
In walked the nurse,
In walked the lady
with the alligator purse.
Measles said the doctor,
Mumps said the nurse,
Nothing said the lady
with the alligator purse.
Out walked the doctor,
Out walked the nurse,
Out walked the lady
with the alligator purse.
/ with Tiny Tim in her purse."
-snip-
"CMU"= Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Here's the introduction to this page:
"What's this, and what is it doing on the Web?
I was talking to my sister Casey, who is eleven this October (1994), about what girls in elementary school do during recess. (We asked my brother what boys do, because they never played the girls' games. He declined to comment.) One popular pastime has always been jumping rope, often while the two kids turning the rope chant a rhyme. I could never jump rope without tripping almost immediately, which revelation was a source of vast amusement to my little sister. Another pastime, open even to the comparatively clumsy, involved chanting or singing a rhyme while clapping hands with another kid (or three). I discovered that kids at the school I went to (in St. Louis, Missouri, USA) use the same songs as ten years ago, with one or two additions probably attributable to children who originally lived elsewhere. I got to wondering how widespread this particular phenomenon is, and figured the most interesting way to find out would be to put it on the web"...
-snip-
An example of the cumulative life events rhyme "When Miss Lucy Was A Baby" (She went like this) is also given on that page as chanted by the contributor's sister Casey.
****
Example #2
from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmL8uTlWSgY "Miss Lucy" published by Sarah Luther,
Apr 9, 2020
"This is the video for the clapping game Miss Lucy! Try this
out with a partner!
Lyrics:
Miss Lucy had a baby, she named him Tiny Tim.
She put him in the bathtub to see if he could swim.
He drank up all the water, he ate up all the soap.
He tried to eat the bathtub but it wouldn't go down his
throat.
He floated down the river, he floated down the lake.
And now Miss Lucy's baby has got a tummy ache
Miss Lucy called the doctor, Miss Lucy called the nurse.
Miss Lucy called the lady with the alligator purse.
Measles said the doctor, measles said the nurse.
Chicken pox said the lady with the alligator purse.
Penicillin said the doctor, penicillin said the nurse.
Pizza said the lady with the alligator purse.
Out went the doctor, Out went the nurse.
Out went the lady with the alligator purse.
-snip-
*Sarah Luther appears to be a White woman. Her manner of speaking suggests she is from the United States.
This version of "Miss Lucy" is much closer to the beginning verse about Sonny Jim/Tiny Tim in the "Bang Bang Lulu" songs than example #1 given above or other versions of "Miss Lucy" recreational rhymes that I can recall coming across. I don't recall finding the verse about the baby being thrown in the lake and a stomach ache in other examples of the "Miss Lucy" recreational rhyme that I've come across.
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PANCOCOJAMS EDITORS NOTES ABOUT THE "MISS LUCY HAD A BABY" RHYMES
Based on my direct collection of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (in the 1990s and early 2000s) and based on my indirect collection of examples of this rhyme on YouTube (from around 2007 to date), it appears to me that the tune for these rhymes is very consistent. It also appears to me that the words for the beginning portion of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" are usually quite fixed (meaning the words are the same in all of the versions). Almost all of the "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes that I've come across begin with a verse about Miss Lucy throwing her baby (or her brother, a turtle, of her boyfriend) in the bathtub or some other body of water to see if he could swim. (Notice that the baby is always referred to as "he" and not "she").
However, many examples of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" rhymes show considerable divergence (are often quite different) after the line about three people [the doctor, the nurse, and the lady with the alligator purse) coming "in" [coming to provide health care to the baby who is sick.] These rhymes continue with lots of different ways and reasons why those three people go "out" [leave Miss Lucy and her baby (or her brother, boyfriend, turtle)].
The coming in and going out words were "originally" direction commands for a person who was jumping in the middle of a rope that was being turned by two "enders" (two people holding either end of the rope and rhythmically turning it.)
Since around the late 1960s in the United States, the usual performance activity that accompanies chanting children's recreational rhymes (playground rhymes) changed from jump rope to performing hand clapping routines (usually with a partner) As a result of this change, it's likely that a lot of people don't recognize the in and out commands in "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" and in some other recreational rhymes as commands for players to jump in and later jump out of the twirling rope/s.
In the example of "Miss Lucy Had A Baby" that is given directly below, the commenter notes that she isn't including those jump rope commands in her example because the chanters did a hand clap routine rather than jumped rope:
From https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418
Subject: RE: Folklore: Lady's alligator purse? Her own
thread
From: GUEST,girl
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 04:57 PM
"I sang this growing up and I was looking for the words, but none of these fit exactly what I remember singing.
I think the closest went this way...
Miss lucy had a baby
his name was tiny tim
she put him in the bath tub
to see if he could swim
he drank up all the water
he ate up all the soap
he tried to eat the bathtub but it wouldn't go down his
throat
Miss lucy called the doctor
the doctor called the nurse
the nurse called the lady with the alligator purse
Mumps! said the doctor
Measles! said the nurse
Nothing! said the lady with the alligator purse
Shots! said the doctor
Medicine! said the nurse
Pizza! said the lady with the alligator purse
Miss lucy punched the doctor
Miss lucy kicked the nurse
Miss lucy payed the lady with the alligator purse.
(we didn't sing the in and "out" verses, but that
was probably because we used it as a clapping game and not a jump rope game."...
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PARTIAL EXAMPLES OF LULU SONGS
from https://www.horntip.com/html/books_&_MSS/1910s/1917-1933_gordon_inferno_collection_(MSS)/index.htm#3144-lulu
She called him Sunny Jim
She put him in the sh&t*-pot
To see if he could swim."...
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this rhyme.
Additional verses are found on that page.
Here's information from that page about the Robert W. Gordon Inferno collection:
" 'Gordon 'Inferno' (1917-33)
The Robert W. Gordon "Inferno" Collection
in the Archive of Folk Song, Library of Congress
The 'Inferno' collection consists of original correspondence and typescript copies of letters (~200 pages) that either Gordon or someone else separated out -- because of their bawdy and scatological subject matter -- from the materials he received and compiled as first head of the folklife department at the Library of Congress. Prefaced to the 'Inferno' collection is a 14 page index which lists informant, date, location and title of the texts."
2.
From http://kristinhall.org/songbook/SeaAndPub/BangBangLulu.html Bang Bang Lulu: Words & Music: Traditional Drinking Song
"What do people do with children's songs when they grow up and tie one on with like-minded pals? They morph them into drinking songs. The basic tune is the same as "Miss Lucy". Since this is a traditional song, there are as many verses as there are drunken voices to sing them. My favorite versions are the ones that allude to the "naughty words", but never have to actually say them. That's the one I learned at camp and I like the clever wordplay. Here is the chorus and a slew of verses. Have fun with them or make up your own.
Bang, bang, Lulu; Lulu, bang, bang.
[alt: "Bang, bang, Lulu; Lulu's gone away"] (“alt”=an alternative version)
Bang, bang, Lulu; Lulu, bang, bang.
[alt: "Bang, bang, Lulu; Lulu's gone away"]
Who's gonna bang bang Lulu, now that Lulu's gone away?
[…]
Lulu had a baby, named him Jungle Jim.
Put him in the basin, to see if he could swim.
He swam down to the bottom, came back to the top.
Lulu got excited, pulled him out by his..
CHORUS:
Cocktail, ginger ale, five cents a glass.
If you don't like it, you can throw it up your...
Ask me no more questions, I'll tell you no more lies.
Ask me that again, and I'll spit right into your"...
3.
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=84511
Subject: Lyr Add: Bang Bang
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:30 PM
"------(chorus)--------
bang, bang rosie,
rosie bangs all day,
who will bang for rosie,
if rosie goes away
[…]
rosie had a brother,
his name was tiny tim,
she threw him in the river,
to see if he could swim.
he swam down the river,
he swam down the falls,
rosie got excited,
and she grabbed him by the bang, bang rosie....
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=15316 "
**
4.
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=84511
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bang Bang Rosie
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 06:28 PM
"Lulu (Rosie) had a baby
His name was Sonny Jim
She put him in the bathtub
To see if he could swim;
Sank to the bottom
Swam to the top
Rosie got excited and
Grabbed him by the
Cocktail, ginger ale,
Five cents a glass
If you don't like it
Shove it up your
Ask me no questions
Tell me no lies
If you ever get hit
With a bucket of sh&t*
Be sure to close your eyes."
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this example.
**
5.
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90418
Subject: RE: Folklore: Lady's aligator purse? Her own thread
From: Joybell
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:04 PM
..".My husband (American born and raised) points out that this is very much like the bawdy song often called "Gang-bang Lulu" (sorry to lower the tone of this thread)
Gang-bang Lulu has a verse that goes:
Lulu had a baby his name was Tiny Tim
She flushed him down the toilet
To see if he could swim.
Oh! Gang-bang Lulu! bangin' around all day
Who we gonna bang on
When Lulu goes away?
The tune is the one used for many Hobo/bawdy songs and it fits "Miss Lucy had a Baby" very well too.
This takes us away from the aligater purse a bit. Cheers, Joy"
-snip-
Joybell is from Australia.
****
6.
https://michellegalway.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/bang-bang-rosie-lyrics-very-funny/
...."Rosie Had a Boyfriend His Name Was Tiny Tim,
She Threw Him In The River To see If He Could Swim,
Well he Swam O’er The Rapids And he Swam O’er The Falls,
Rosie Got Excited And She Grabbed Him By The ……
Bang, Bang Rosie, Rosie Bangs All Day,
Whose Gonna Bang For Rosie When Rosie Goes Away,"...
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