Comments About The Character Mary In The Movie "Sinners" & Comments About Other Fictional Characters Who 'Passed For White'

Alex Beightol, May 2, 2025
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Total # of views as of May 14, 2025 at 9:08 AM EST - 158,667

Total # of comments as of May 14, 2025 at 9:08 AM EST - 1,563
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WARNING- This showcase vlog and many of that vlog's discussion thread comments (including some that are quoted below in this pancocojams' post) include spoilers for the movie Sinners (i.e. information about the plot of that movie.)
 
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Edited by Azizi Powell

This pancocojams posts showcases a YouTube vlog hosted by Alex Beightol about the fictional character Mary, a White passing woman in Ryan Coogler's 2025 hit movie Sinners. That vlog and its discussion thread focus on Mary passing for White in the 1930s United States South. Vlogger Alex Bightol also discusses the fact that- like the fictional character Mary she portrays- actress Hailee Steinfeld has a multiracial family ancestry. Also, like Mary, Hailee Steinfeld physically looks like a White woman. In that YouTube vlog Alex Bightol discusses the subjects of the "one drop of Black blood" law, "passing for White", "White passing", and "white presenting" in Ryan Coogler's Sinners movie.

In addition, this pancocojams post features selected comments from the discussion thread* of Alex Bightol's vlog in which commenters share their personal experiences with those subjects and share the names of additional American movies, books, television shows etc. that revolve around those subjects.

As background to those selected comments, this pancocojams post includes information about the movie Sinners as well as the United States' definitions of racial terms that inform fictional works and refer to real life experiences in historical and present day United States.   

*That showcased vlog's discussion thread also includes numerous comments from people (mostly in the United States)'s real life experiences of  family members passing for White, and/or their real life experiences of White passing and/or being White presenting. However, while I highly recommend reading those comments, that sub-section of comments from that vlog's discussion thread aren't included in this pancocojams post's compilation.)

The content of this pancocojams post is presented for historical, socio-cultural, and educational purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to Ryan Coogler, Hailee Steinfeld and all those who are associated with the movie Sinners. Thanks to Alex Beightol, the host of the YouTube vlog that is embedded in this pancocojams post. Also, thanks to all those who are quoted in this pancocojams post.  

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A lot of commenters in this discussion thread shared their personal experiences being White passing or being a part of families with White passing members.  This discussion thread is recommended reading for those who want to learn more about this subject.

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DEFINITIONS OF CERTAIN TERMS USED IN THESE FEATURED COMMENTS
These are my wording for these terms (gleaned from various online sources)

Definition #1- the "one drop of Black blood" rule: a term in the United States that stipulates that any known African black ancestry makes a person Black no matter how that person looks or how long ago they descended from a person of Black ancestry. 

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Definition #2- "Passing for White": a term that refers to the actions and/or results of a person who physically appears to be White and chooses to permanently or temporarily cross over into the White race and live as a White person. 

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Definition #3 - "White passing": a  referent for a person of color (POC), who choses to passes for White [read definition #2]

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Definition #4 - "White presenting": a referent for a person of color who appears to be White to other people but does not deny their biracial or multiracial background and doesn't permanently or temporarily pass for White (read definition #1).
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Read comment #36 below for similar meanings for definitions #2, #3, and #4  .

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INFORMATION ABOUT RYAN COOGLER'S MOVIE "SINNERS"
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_(2025_film [retriieved on May 14, 2025]
"Sinners is a 2025 American musical horror film[4][5][6] produced, written, and directed by Ryan Coogler.[7] Set in 1932 in the Mississippi Delta, the film stars Michael B. Jordan in dual roles as twin brothers who return to their hometown to start again, only to be confronted by a supernatural evil. The film co-stars Hailee Steinfeld, Miles Caton, Jack O'Connell, Wunmi Mosaku, Jayme Lawson, Omar Miller, and Delroy Lindo.

[...]

Sinners was theatrically released in the United States on April 18, 2025 by Warner Bros. Pictures.[8] Critics praised Coogler's direction, Göransson's score, and the cast performances, and the film has grossed over $287 million worldwide, becoming the fifth highest-grossing film of 2025."...

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SELECTED COMMENTS FROM THE DISCUSSION THREAD FOR THIS EMBEDDED VLOG
This is only a small sample of the comments on the subject of  the one drop of Black blood" rule, "passing for White", "White passing" and "White presenting" that are found in the discussion thread for Alex Beightol's vlog episode entitled "Hailee Steinfield's Blackness" which is embedded in this pancocojams' post.

As a reminder, some of these comments contain spoilers about Ryan Coogle's movie Sinners

These comments are given in no particular order and are numbered for referencing purposes only.

All of these comments are from May 2, 2025- May 14, 2025. 

1. @jessicaruby1ify
"Stellar video. You explained Hailey's role perfectly. I hope more people see your video. So that when they see the movie, they'll realize that this isn't just a vampire movie;  instead, this is a historical film. It's a very sad one, too. Thank you for the upload. 😊 "

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2. @jlane03
"Thank you for making this video and explaining it so well. I think there were so many people who don't understand her character (and I can tell by all the people saying she should have been played by Zendaya or Jurnee Smollett) or even the concept of passing in that time period"

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3. @malcolmcarstafhnur832
"This is the most nuanced handling of Mary's character yet. AWESOME Job. I feel as though some people have never heard of passing before. Passing, Passe' Blanche...these are a part of our survival story just as much as anything else"

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4. @haniyyahn
"Keep in mind that Mary did not materialize out of thin air. However,  pale her people were they lived among other Black people, went to school and church with them, etc. They were Black in their small communities where Black and white people know your family and lineage and white anywhere no one knows them like this. And yes on the spiritual death - she is suffering because she is not the person she is pretending to be and her pretending causes constant anxiety for that reason and also because if she slips up she is in real danger. So, a heavy toll on the individual, not just the community. There were also levels of passinng. Many people who could pass did so only when white people assumerd it or when outside of their communities- as to get jobs they coukd not otherwise or the way Mary tried to use it to help darker relatives (keep in mind often that person was the only one in their family who could pass). I dont think she was the group's undoing. I think Grace was. Mary was only interested in (biting) Stack."

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5. @khalicamoore9512
"The moment she started talking to Stacks, I was like, "Oh sh-t* she's kin." meaning she is black also. I spent my teen years in PA , which operated similar to how the video described the South at that time. I knew a lot of passing latinos and black people and it was always weird how they would interact ,but most worked like a double agent. They would tell the poc who is really part of the kkk, who is racist, and all the f-ed up stuff they would say when we were in the room. However, for most of them, they had relatives in the school and would hear these horrific things they would say about poc some would have their cover blown and directly face social punishments and even lose educational things like their grades and opportunities.  It's really horrific and it's something we don't talk about enough. I loved her character because it really showed the ups and downs of passing"
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*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.

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6. "She is not black, what is wrong with you"

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7. @khalicamoore9512
"@fs6688  1. In the movie, she is a black woman. She is white passing ,meaning that to white people, they see her as white even though legally and blood wise she isn't white. An example is Keanu Reeves, David Gallagher, Bella Thorne,and Mariah Carey. Most white passing people have a percentage of white blood( for lack of better wording). However, this isn't the case for all as it can be based off looks.

2. Hailey Steinfield (the actress) is considered black in the US because any drop of black blood ( around 1/8 or more) is considered to be a black person in the US. This was an actual supreme court case, and it still holds today. So even outside of the movie, she is just considered a white passing black person. Not only is her mother Filipino but her grandfather is black and Filipino which again makes her a white passing afro Filipino"

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8. @A-Oh-Trey
"Ooh, great analysis. Makes me realize just how intentional Coogler was in having Hailee's character be the one who ends up giving the vampires an in to invade the juke joint. Mary, who tries to use her ability to pass in order to bring opportunity back, but ends up losing her humanity in the process."

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9. @coraggio93
"Fascinating. Instead of casting a white actor, like in the 1950's version of "Imitation of Life", Ryan Coogler cast an actor who has a mixed race grandfather. Good for Ryan Coogler."

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10. @ASocialMediaConsumer
"Imitation of Life, Queenie, Beloved, Their Eyes Were Watching God, The Wedding, Belle, and several others... this trope is not new. In fact, it is common in "black" stort-telling. Not to diminish the reality of the one drop rule... but versions of this character have been on screen since the very early days of movie making."

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11. @lenan5913
"That's true but I think those movies were indies. This is a blockbuster and has wider reach. Plus it's the first time the actor and character have both been "passing". They usually choose someone unambiguously white or black to play the character"

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12. @Kind_kelpie1989
"@lenan5913 I take your point but it’s not the first time they’ve cast “passing” people in this role. Wentworth Miller and Ruth Nega come to mind but yes, they were not in block buster films."

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13. @across75man75
"Imitation of life, was a huge hit from a major studio in the 50s."

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16. @astralyeti
"where was it in their eyes were watching God?"

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17. @ASocialMediaConsumer
"@astralyeti  The main character Jaine. She remains in the "blk community," but her appearance and racial background garnered attention (wanted and unwanted) that reflect experiences tied to "one drop"."

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18. @Vanipollonia1
"Don't forget the movies "Passing", "The Feast of All Saints", "A House Divided", "Pinky", "Show Boat", "Lost Boundaries", "Band of Angels", "I Passed for White", "Illusions", "Devil in a Blue Dress", "A Family Thing", "The Human Stain", the character of Allan Willis on the TV show "The Jeffersons", the episode "Libertyville" on the TV show "Cold Case", & the episode "Blood" on the TV show "Law & Order"."

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19. @cheriebenjamin0315
"Belle the young lady was not White passing or even close. She was just biracial and in the context of Sinners’ Mary, not the same. The Wedding was about an  interracial couple very different. Not about being white passing. Imitation of Life is the closest to touching on it and even to this day people are still confused as to whether Sarah Jane’s daddy was white or white passing despite it being explained in the dialogue. Queenie touched on it somewhat but it wasn’t a major focal point of the film. In Their Eyes Were Watching God I don’t recollect that at all being a focal point or even in the movie. The only thing you can factor into that is it starred Halle Berry who we all know her mother is white.

Also why are we calling it a trope when it’s a factor if the black experience? Or do the factors of the black experience in all its parts only matter if the people are darker complexions?

If we’re going to tell the stories we have to tell them all and can’t cherry pick. That kind of thing is what can lead those who have black heritage but are white presenting to perhaps not want to mention it and feel shut out but then when a large collection of black folks find out about that persons heritage they want to be angry as to why the person didn’t speak on it."

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20. @Vanipollonia1
"@ Regarding "Imitation of Life", in the book it is mentioned that Sarah Jane's father is White but, in the movie, he is described as "practically White". This is because the decency laws that dictated what Hollywood could & could not portray in their movies could not showcase that Sarah Jane was a first-generation biracial person of an interracial couple. Therefore, the movie changed her father's race to White-passing. And in "The Wedding", the Shelby character was White-passing in the book, but Halle Berry played her in the movie."

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21. @SuperSonicBaroque
"Don’t forget PINKIE!"

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22. @moriahadams7895
"⁠@lenan5913  I see your point, but I did want to point out that in the original version of Imitation of Life, the passing character is played by Fredi Washington (a white passing black woman who lived openly as black, and used her privilege to bring attention to the state of black people at the time). Since she was a black actress that actually could pass for white, and was living in a time where it was still common to do so, it made the role feel a bit more raw and believable. I love both versions of the film, but honestly believe the original is the better of the two, and worth a watch if you haven’t seen it."

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23. @Waterfallcreationsevents
"Immigration of life broke me when I watched and it pissed me off so much"

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24. @wysesoserious
"Facts"

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25. "@fabrisseterbrugghe8567
"Julie in Showboat was probably one of the first to have this discussed as part of her character"

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26. @Vanipollonia1
"@fabrisseterbrugghe8567  Thanks for bringing up "Showboat" & Julie. What's interesting is that the character of Julie could have been played by Lena Horne, but Ava Gardner acquired the role. Ava even thought it was strange that she got the role & not Lena."

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27. @AfriasporaFilms
"Thank you for posting this. Many miss the entire complexity of Mary’s character because they dismiss her as being white when as you pointed out she clearly was not. Steinfield’s own background is an even greater layer of authenticity."

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28. @jacklyneverage3881
"Thank you for this video! Because folks got on my nerves who reviewed this film and just misidentified her, didn't understand her character, blamed her for the vampires getting in."

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29. @kathiaserrano7740
"Thank you for the insight. They’re so many people watching this movie through a modern day lens and it’s messing up their view of the film. Race relations and culture were different back then."

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30. @anitamuhammad3968
"With this explanation, which is beautiful, it made me think of the point or name of the movie- (we are all) sinners”."

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31. @bishoptl
"Excellent video. I knew Hailee's background before heading into this movie, so I suspected what her role might be, and as soon as it was made clear what her connection to the larger group was, I felt oddly satisfied to be proven correct. The 'one-drop' rule, physical attributes of blackness vs whiteness, passing - all of these aspects of our culture and the wider power structures at large affect all of us every day. Black and white. Thanks for taking the time to break this down for an audience that may not have that knowledge. Earned a new subscriber here."

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32. @NishiNish5678
"Loved this breakdown because there's a Mary in just about every community. I was confused as to why other people were confused"

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33. @triplelife5147
"I think it's a combination of people not knowing their history and a recent movement to gatekeep Blackness. There's a lot of foolishness online nowadays."

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34. @cliffordrose4335

"There is honestly no other actresses of equal appeal to the mainstream audience that Ryan Coogler could submit to WarnerMedia for approval and get the landslide of $90 million he received.  Haillie Steinfield's character "Mary* is an octaroon in the 1930's Mississippi Delta.  She is perfectly cast for this role in age and appearance and her abilities are Academy Award certified as no other actress of her echelon is.  If she chooses to do more Black roles in the future outside of the Ryan Coogler universe then I for one am.alk for it . . . SHUT UP & TAKE MY 💰💵!!!"

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35. @SimplyBeingTT
"How sad that some have missed the point of there being three representations of black women in a movie of this caliber.  A ground-breaking film that has made history and that is already a classic!

Thank you for breaking this down for people that need a history lesson, and whose lack of  knowledge are coercing uneducated commentary regarding the characters of Annie and Mary. 🖤👊🏽🤎"

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36. @oldmama8929
"There seems to be a bit of confusion about white, white passing and white presenting. White means there is no PoC heritage in your near ancestry.  About two great grandparents . White passing is having PoC near ancestry and  being fair enough to 'pass' as white and live a white person,  as a 'conscious choice'. White presenting is being fair enough that society 'thinks' you are white, but you have made the choice to live in the PoC community as one of its members. Both choices were frought with danger at the time."

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37. @kevkeisha
"Finding people that take issue with Steinfeld's role is equivalent to a pebble in the ocean. There is significantly more praise for her role and the movie than dissenting viewpoints. Why give those dissenting perspectives any energy at all?

To answer my own question, I assume it's because negativity (especially racism) draws more views..."

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38. @abaetol [Alex Beightol, the host of this embedded vlog]
"There are buckets of those pebbles on my TT and in the comments of Instagram, where people were wondering with genuine curiosity what her role represented. That role, and its history, touches a nerve that people do not understand. That history and on going negotiation within our community, is a hot topic that people are starving to discuss. The energy evident in my video is to the super fascinating history and the way it shapes social tensions. But, if you think you have sufficiently answered your own question, ignore the many comments, views, and ways Hailee’s casting has sparked conversation. You are free to believe and assume the worst."

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39. @Hypegreene05
"This is why i was irritated by people on the internet taking about not letting Mary to the cookout. Mary's situation is not unheard of. She saw herself as a part of the community, and in truth, she was. She put herself at risk to save those she loved and saw as family. She's not at fault for what happened."

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40. @tiff6323
"I have been saying this since I have seen the movie. I hate that she is getting so much hate for playing a character she fits. Mary and Hailee would of been killed in the 1930s for having that African American blood in them and trying to pass for white. I'm not understanding why it's hard to understand. Folks need to read more to learn our history."

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41. @sxt4447
"My confusion is with everyone else’s confusion. I’ve known she was a quarter Blasian since she was in True Grit. She never hid her ancestry. Y’all just didn’t know her or pay attention to her before this movie."

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42. @dobbyinagluetrap
"Honestly don't know how people missed this. It seemed obvious when she first interacted with Stack in the train station - they obviously had more complex history than a simple fling. Then they literally state her background at the jute joint. The movie TELLS audiences clear as day."

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43. @nomdeguerre247
"She's not black either so...what's your point?"

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44. @kimbralina3000
"Yes she has black ancestry but she's STILL white, at the time she would be classed as something different but is still white."

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45. @loadishstone
"@kimbralina3000  My god why are you being purposely obtuse? The Racial Integrity Act of 1924 literally existed. Mary is black specifically BECAUSE the time and place she was in was the hypodescent south. Did you just not watch the video even?"

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46. @Shadowyartsdirty3
"​@dobbyinagluetrap unfortunately some audience members are resistant to the acquisition of intellectual and nuance. Hence some of the comments of people saying but "shes not black despite", despite it literally being explained she's Philipino black."

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47. @Ray03595
"She’s white lol. Folks just google what her parents look like. They are white people, having a small percentage of non-European ancestry doesn’t change that"

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48. @Ray03595
"@Shadowyartsdirty3 she’s not black. She has black ancestry."

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49. @AfriasporaFilms
"@  And in the history of this country that black ancestry was enough to make her black. Black was and still is a term of INCLUSIVITY. But really we are talking about the character Mary in the context of the 1930s, NOT the actress today."

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50. @G-uu9yf
"@Ray03595 the CHARACTER in 1930s…"

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51. @zoejnobaptiste3332
"@Ray03595  you must be slow. This person is referring to the character of Mary, not Hailey herself. The character existing in the 1930's is socially and historically black regardless of her 'passing'. Everyone knows the actress is white. Why are you fighting ppl commenting on the character and ignoring the entire context of the movie? The entire video was dedicated to explaining this but you're here arguing and missing the point. Hailey is white, yes. Mary, the fictional character in the 1930's vampire movie is considered black and white passing."

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52. @sunii4264
"She Black, And, She knows she Black. 1 drop makes them uncomfortable, in the train station scene,by her proximity, she was boarding the Colored section of the train. The South has a long memory & Mary wasn't testing it.

Stack has Mary pass to protect the lives of THEIR WHOLE community; she moved to a whole other state to not endanger her loved ones , lest she offend folk that looked like her & mess their lives up. She was one of many!💜💯"

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53. @roxywyndham
"All that makes sense for the movie but we are not in a one drop system and her “one drop” doesn’t make her Black in 2025."

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54. @nopenallnull
"Clock it!"

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55. @imo.124
"Nope!"

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56. @G-uu9yf
"She doesn’t claim to be black."

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57. @troy511
"Exactly people should understand this. Just like how white people of different ethnicities ie. Italians were considered not white back then but today they are considered white. Race is a part of a system and is a social construct that is always changing. The one drop rule doesn't exist today."

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58. @roxywyndham
"@G-uu9yfshe’s not the one claiming it. It’s weirdo Black people that still follow the one drop rule."

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59. @G-uu9yf
"@roxywyndham  idk I wouldn’t call them weirdos. It was the law of this land for a long time, and continued as part of the social fabric of the country. Most post-slavery and post-colonial countries have some sort of racial classification system. People aren’t weird for adhering to them once they’ve become part of culture. Traveling to different parts of South America, the Caribbean, and Africa, I’ve heard people classify me as so many things (I’m East African). I don’t really care. But I don’t think it’s dumb. It’s just history."

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60. @desixox
"She’s white, with black in her. But don’t try to erase black people. Black people can have white in them - but they’re black. She has black in her, but this is a white woman."

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61. @Theemultidimensionalgoddess
"🎯🎯🎯🎯"

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62. @bebeade71
"Are we talking about Hailee or Mary? Hailee yes she is White or Multiracial bc of her Black, White, and the Filipino heritage but Mary would've been considered a colored in the movie."

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63. @sebolai-dd4wo
"@bebeade71   hailee doesnt even look colored....she is whyte...whats wrong with being whyte?? did i miss something?"

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64. @vgibbs12
"Y’all beating the hell out of this horse…let it go it isn’t that deep. 30 years ago when Jennifer Beals had a similar role in Devil in blue dress it was relevant but now it’s like whatever. Btw fyi Jennifer Beals dad is black in real life so…"

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65. @brklynrox
"The more things change the more they stay the same. I remember Jennifer Beals in Devil in a Blue Dress. They asked why was she in that role until she hipped them to her history. Rebecca Hall just directed Passing not too long ago."

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66. @vw3575
"She looks like the lady who played the ungrateful daughter Sarah Jane in the classic movie "imitation of life". I googled her today after movie n showed it to everyone n they freaked out. I understood the assignment"

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67. @CitanulsPumpkin
"In the Buffy the Vampire Slayer spinoff "Angel" there's one specific episode full of flashbacks to the cold war red menace McCarthyism era.

The episode is basically an adaptation of the Hitchcock movie Psycho. Except they took the human serial killer and all the transphobia and replaced it with a paranoia demon who turned the residents of a Los Angeles hotel into a lynch mob.

One of the pivotal scenes is when the main character is talking to a woman who just moved into the hotel. She is a carbon copy of the female lead from the movie Psycho. A former bank employee on the run after walking out of the bank with a duffelbag stuffed with fifty thousand dollars. Except she's not one of the blonde haired blue-eyed swimsuit models Hitchcock put in all his movies. She looks pretty much like Hallie Stienfeld as far as skin tone goes, and she has to explain to the main character, a hundred something year old white male European vampire, what "passing for white" means.

The self-involved melodramatic vampire had to have racism explained to him. He's all like, "Oh yeah, that racism thing you humans do. I never got into that. I was too busy having sex with other vampires on top of piles of dead and dying nuns. So anyway, you were telling me you got fired because your bank found out you weren't white enough. That's rough."

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68. @jazmonmctear3705
"Just watched Feast of All Saints and that's a great film to review for the understanding of the levels and politics of skin tone within the black community and how prejudice and colorism affects our multimelanated families worldwide"

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69. @theflashfan3234
"You did such a great job succinctly explaining real world historical complexities and nuances and how they inform the characters and themes of the movie, yet STILL people in the comments are trying to do their best job to be intentionally obtuse and being mad for no reason 🤦‍♂️"

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70. @AshleighE2589
"If people are getting upset then they clearly don’t know the history. People like Mary exist lol there’s nothing confusing about. I watch a lot of old black and white films. My mom got me into them when I was in high school. Prob way before then. I suggest people watch “Pinky” and “ imitation of life”. These two movies are exactly what you’re explaining in this video. Great movies about women passing as white for “better lives” "

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71. @mactrek2
"Interesting take. However,  you seem to have glossed over the fact that had Mary stayed in the Black community  her presence would have put the entire community in danger of being destroyed, as many were. Stax knew this and so did all the other Black people there. It never was just all about Mary.  Mary still moved as a privileged white woman in her insistence in being there."

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72. @hihi615
"I'm somewhat suprised to learn some people didn't know about the one drop rule or passing people. I thought this was common knowlege. But then again, many are quite ignorant when it comes to black history.  There were people like Homer Plessy who changed history. Back in the day, i think if you were at least 1/8th, by law, and i think socially, you were black, as black as any other black american, with the same laws set against you, unless you hid it. This is why Mary gives the line "I didn't even wanna be white, I wanted to be with you" or something like that when she's yelling at Stack because he left her. 

My grandfather's mom was half white, and his dad was fully black (as "fully" as an african american can get anyway, most of us are not fully african in dna but thats for another time). My grandpa and his siblings all look passing if they simply straighten their hair. But never once did anyone think "they werent black" because they grew up in a black area and back then (at least where he lived) it was assumed if you were hanging around black people, you were black.

But my point is that a lot of passing black/mixed people back then went the other route, like Mary. Many lied about/hid their heritage and pretended to be completely white in hopes of a better life/opportunities. This is why sometimes you might see older american white ppl do DNA tests and find an usually large percentage of west african dna, because they probably had a parent or grandparent who was passing and never told anyone."

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73. @tessa63627
"She's like Jazmine Dubois from Boondocks.

There's even a movie about it (Imitation of Life, both the 1934 version and the 1959 version. The 1934 version features an actual passing black actress, and the version i grew up with. I've never seen the 1959 version though)."

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74. @iamkrohn
"NYTN (New York to Nashville) also explores a lot of these old racial constructs by exploring her own family tree. It is really interesting."
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75. @MsTy2908
"Yes, the point is its ingrained in foundational black Americans history in American.. black passing was in Alex Halle Queen, abd highlights black passing in jim crow days after the civil war"

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76. @hayleyquinn15
"Thank you for this video. Some people are losing their minds over the casting but it makes sense to me. Thanks for the History lesson too! 👌🏽"

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77. @psimms5190
"I enjoyed your video on Mary, so thoughtfully done. Watching Sinners brought Lydia Maria Child’s The Quadroons to mind, and you captured that same complexity so well. You made it clear how deeply the political and social climate shaped those choices. And the backlash the actress faced was … awful. First for “taking a Black role,” then for “using her Blackness”? You handled all of that with such nuance. Great job Alex!"

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78. @joyc.e.7511
"I didn't know people were getting so heated about it. This is why I stay off most social media, people freak out and get upset about the reality of things."

**
Reply
79. @Danheron2
"@joyc.e.7511  yeah, I read download Tik Tok to discuss this movies. I thought it was really cool and I didn’t know anyone who watched it and I was blown away by how many people didn’t know about people like Mary? It was hilarious. There is one woman who made a video defending her and was like I never thought I would say this, but a lot of you people are not qualified to talk about the history of racism 😂"

**
80. @TeXXicJA
"PASSING by Nella Larsen and the movie Imitation of Life are just 2 works that show the heartbreak of this type of existence. So glad I was exposed to them at a young age"

**
81. @lucysterling
"I haven’t seen this movie yet, though I do plan to because it looks amazing, so I didn’t know anything about her character. This is all super interesting to hear since we read Passing by Nella Larsen in one of my classes this past year. It adds a whole other layer into the things we talked about"

****
Thanks for visiting pancocjams.

Visitor comments are welcome.

Memories Of The 1980s Wop Dance & Other Comments From Two YouTube Videos' Discussion Threads

UPROXX Video, July 19, 2009
-snip-
Throughout this video of Doug E. Fresh & The Get Fresh Crew's Hip Hop rap "All The Way To Heaven" which was released in 1986 are scenes of African American women and men people dancing the Wop.\
-snip-
Hat tip to @aliciaburbank9962, a commenter in discussion thread #1 below, for mentioning this video. Also, hat tip to the other commenters who are quoted in this post who mentioned other 1980s records and other media products that mention or feature scenes of people doing the Wop.

****
Edited by Azizi Powell

Latest revision - June 18, 2026

This is Part II of a two part pancocojams series about the 1980s/1990s Hip Hop "Wop" dance.

This post presents selected comments from the discussion threads for two of the YouTube videos on the 1980s "Wop" dance that are showcased in Part I of this series.

Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2023/12/examples-from-youtube-of-ways-wop-was.html for Part I of this pancocojams series. That post showcases two film clips of 1980s footage of the Wop dance. This post also showcases one instructional video of the Wop and one video performance of this dance by a man who remembers it from the 1980s. 

The Addendum of that post showcases two TikTok compilations that document some ways that the "Wop" is danced in 2023.,,

The content of this post is presented for historical and cultural purposes. I'm particularly interested in documenting the comments that refer to mention of or scenes of people dancing the Wop in 1980s records and in 1980s mass media. 

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post and thanks to the publishers of these videos on YouTube.
-snip-
This is part of an ongoing pancocojams series on African American dances with the name "Wop". Click the tag below for other pancocojams posts in this series.
-snip-
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2023/12/timeline-of-wop-records-significant.html for my editorial comment in the Addendum to that post that presents my theory that the origin of the dance name "Wop" comes from about the word "doo-wop". 

****
SELECTED COMMENTS FROM THESE VIDEOS' DISCUSSION THREADS
with numbers added for referencing purposes only

DISCUSSION THREAD #1 - How to Do the Wop | Hip-Hop Dancing
Howcast



Howcast, Sep 22, 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzmhNJ4ASbg    How to Do Hip-Hop Dance Moves

"Okay. So we got the Wop we're working on now. Another dance from a little back in the day, right? So we're going to start, feet apart, knees bent. The Wop, we're going to just get the groove first. The Wop has an up groove, right? So we're going to accent up. Accent up. Just bending my knees but the stronger motion's up. Up, up, up, up.

Tricky thing is you're arms are opposite. So you go down, arms come up. You go up, arms go down. Swing, like you're swinging a baseball bat, kind of. And, and, and, and you get your head in the game. Boom, boom, boom, boom. You can move your feet. You can step. Step, step, step, step over, and back. Back, and over.

That's the Wop. That's the Wop with a partner you can slap hands. There you go with the Wop. Let's try it with some music.

There you go. Wop it out. Wop it out."

[Comments]

2013

1. @peridot29
"YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!  Thank you.  This is the WOP!!!!  Can't tell me nothing on the dance floor when I rocking this.  Learn young whippersnappers,,,LEARN."

**
2. @jakestarr4442
"yes it is...the wop was a dance move before it was a dance"

**
3. @CalladaTormenta
"Umm yes, it is. That's the wop from the 80's, not the new one with the song that you're thinking of."

**
Reply
4. @TheTruthSayer90, 2021
"is the new song that you think you are referring to is by J Dash? J Dash also did a wop."

** 
Reply
5. @WadeEvansMusic
"aka the vine national anthem dance"

**
6. @mizzkizzy09
"What the hell? This is not the wop!"

**
Reply
7. @broinator2641, 2019
"It's the original wop, not the "new" wop"

**
Reply
8. @alehiasavage1554, 2021
"Now it’s wap"

**
Reply
9. @unworldlychaos
"It's the real one! If u want Miley's she did a different thing I bet"

**
10. @funktavious
"Finally somebody showing people how to do the real wop.  All these commenters saying that this isn't the wop needs to do some research.  This is the wop.  The new dance that everybody else is doing goes by the same name but is not the original"

****

2014

11. @rb7007
"This is the Old Skool Wop, seen in Bell Biv Devoe, Bobby Brown, Salt n Pepa videos.. (not that twerking cr@p they do today) Lol!

Loved this dance back in the day.

Anyone remember the reverse wop we used to do in the Raves in the UK? Really speeded up,...it was hilarious!

Great memories."

**
12. @HarkeningGodsVoice
"Thank you for doing the "real" wop..not that new song that the kids today think it is.  Just like when those Harlem shake vids went viral and everyone forgot that an actual Harlem shake move had long since existed!"

**
Reply
13. @54mensababe, 2015
"+HarkeningGodsVoice I feel you on tat one. The original Harlem Shake had class and style and not just a bunch of jumping around."

****

2015

14. @painlessrisen9787
"this is the ORIGINAL Wop"

**
Reply
15. @54mensababe
"+painlessrisen For real. I don't know what those other Wop videos are all about. smh"

**
16. @NoHippieBBQCooking
"46 years old.. My generation knows this dance.. You nailed it.. Even got the hand on the hip at the end.. If people aren't older than lets say 42 they can't really understand"

**
Reply
17. @majikle
"+No Hippie BBQ & Cooking exactly - these young cats think this "wop, wop, wop, wop" ish... is the real wop... they need to learn somethin' lol"

**
18. @enluv2
"That is not the DC Wop from the 80s. I don't know where these people are getting their dance lessons from. What's missing is moving her hips. It was with a jelly roll, front to the back. It was a work out and it was fun. 1983 was the year so many iconic dances from back in the day came out.  Backin the day, we would do the Snake and could drop to the ground and come back up in one smooth move-. The Michael Jackson. The Smurf. The Cabbage Patch. The Wop. It was great."

**
Reply
19. @54mensababe
"+enluv2 This is the way we were doing the Wop in DC in the 70's. North East side."
-snip-
Notice this commenter wrote "the 70s". This is the first time I've come across any reference to the "Wop" in the 1970s. I wonder if this is a typo and that commenter meant to write "the 80s".

**
20. @scoobydoo6330
"Ah the 80's if you wasn't born or live this decade this was a dance that we use to do back then whether it was at a house parties or a club I use to it do it now go or learn how to do this dance move much memories long live the 80's"

**
Reply
21. @sandramayes8679, 2023
"Since you brought up house parties, that's where I first saw this dance, was on House Party... Sydney and Sharane  was doing it, I'll never forget that, lol"

****
2016

****
2017

22. @rogercobbs4297
"what was name of the wop song from 80s"

**
Reply
23. @macben3266
"Roger Cobbs woppit by B Fats"

**
24. @ivargas220iv
"Thank you so much. Too many of today's kids do it different and I just can't with that.....thank you for keeping it old school"

**
25. @PPikes
"wop is a derogatory term for Italians, I've always been leery of saying this lols! but this is dance from my childhood"

****
2018

26. @shartricboyd9197
"This the REAL WOP!! '86!"

**
27. @aliciaburbank9962
"I know she did this a while ago but it really brings back memories. Not sure about the negative comments but i usually see these when ppl don't know their history. Please check out Doug e Fresh's "all the way to heaven" video if you're confused. You're welcome."

****

2019

28. @rachellemcadams1438
"Back in the day we called this one the NY wop because there was a different variation called the DC wop."

**
Reply
29. @tatum8499, 2022
"Brings back memories from DC gogo"

**
30. @xavierwilliams2228
"Didnt vanessa do this on the Cosby show intro?"

**
Reply
31. @RoyalGrean, 2020
"And the sister on Coming to America"

****
2020

32. @alexandernegron3128
"Wop Wop Wop Wop dont stop

Right first put yo left hand on top

WOP WOP WOP WOP 🕺"

**
33. @christmasdevil6415
"I looked up wap now I'm here"

**
34. @maren5056
"ah this is what the WAP comes from

only gen z will know what I mean"

**
35. @gracehuynh_
"Gen Z be like "I thought it said wap not wop"

**
36. @Dozzzzy
"I didn’t come here looking for the WAP dance..."

**
37. @MarisaXO
"Anyone else look this up due to watching rainbow do the wop on mixed-ish? 😅"

**
38. @Charmedsas1
"1st time I saw the wop was on a different world when I watched it a few years ago.

I'm not from the us😄

Who's here from 2020?"

**
39. @ninamaechen3142
"I said WAP not WOP 😂🤦🏻‍♀️"

**
40. @ryanilagan3
"I came for the WAP 😏. This ain't it tho"

****

2021

41. @curtiswhiteheadjr1322
"I was there in ‘86 when B Fats dropped this joint with his dance. Thank you, Queen for respectfully representing. ✊🏽💯"

**
42. @MrBones2020
"OG wap right there"

**
43. @chucku.1745
"These kids don't know hip-hop culture. History repeats itself."

****
2022

44. @PatinaEdochie
"Righttt that oldschool 80s/90s WOP I knew in childhood 🔥"

 **

45. @troystewart2909
"80' teens know the real Wop and Harlem Shake. Memories at the skating rink .... (sigh)"

****
2023

46. @geterdone2023
"She ain't doing it hard enough you suppose to break yo neck."

**
47. @angelam.haigler9695
"Best tutorial I've seen of this. Great job! I was there when it originated, lol."

**
48. @colt45northtexas
"Are the Beastie boys known to do this?"

**
Reply 
49. @dbspaceoditty
"im literally here because i just listend to intergalactic like

 "he didnt just say what i think he did, no way, wanna watch beastie boys do the wop just like i did" "

****
50. @merledixon6674
"This always reminds me of intergalactic by beastie boys! "I've been known to do The Wop!" "

**
51. @frederickcohen955
"Yeah you Wopping,  but slow down Ma you gotta finesse it.  Real B Boys/Girls had a smooth cool flow..   They actually had a record called" Woppit" by B Fats  when that dance hit the scene..  Original B Boy"

****

DISCUSSION THREAD #2:  "Tony - The Wop, The Cabbage Patch & The Prep"

published by DJ Tony Vito, Apr 20, 2007

Yes, that's me, kickin' old school moves .... 80's lives on!  The third step in this video is a dance we used to call the Raindance at Bentleys on 40th and Madison;  I've since found out that it is better known as The Prep.

[Comments]

2007

1. @avp0713
"the video is a split-second ahead of the audio... but you get the idea..."

****

2008

****
2009

2. @Tallcocoa
"That was so smooth! You took me back on the dance floor 1990 kick'n it with you!"

****
2010

3. @kenswift12345
"Love the prep moves. Brings me back to my youth!"

**
4. @SMC799
"Honey, I'm 40 and grew up in NY and we did those dances and they were FUN! You did your thang! Loved it!"

**
5. @mookeychase0907
"LOL,Dats right Tone bring dat 80s ish back homeboy!"

**
6. @chakalh2
"what the name this song ?? please"

**
7. @avp0713
"@chakalh2  - POISON by Bell, Biv, Devoe"

**
8. @peridot29
"Great....Rep the OLD School... or should I say, "OLD SKOOL!!!"

**

9.@missVeemack
"@avp0713 oh your not white? Well on this video you look white. Deosnt matter though your old school moves are on point."

**
Reply
10. @avp0713
"@kingsphatgirl  - white?  ok, well I guess if Obama's white, then i'm white too, thanks though."

**
Reply
11. @avp0713, 2012
"@gigga143 - People tend to forget that black people come in sooooo many shades.... my little brother doesn't even had a dark or olive skin tone at all.. my sister is white color with light blue eyes.... do we actually need to wear a sign that says "WE ARE BLACK TOO" "..  
-snip-
The comment that @avp0713 responded to is no longer part of this discussion thread (as of Dec. 6, 2023 if not before then.)

****

2011

12. @Afrodesiahhh
"Hey...not many can bust out this little known move. You can Prep almost as good as me!  Down South we added a sweet little move to it though...maybe I'll post a vid doin' the do with the complete choreography ; )   Your wop...priceless."

**
13. @mothball50
"But can you do the smurf, robocop, and gallop? I was diggin the wop btw. It was big in Cali."

**
14. @phinchy007
"THAT WAS FUNNY......GREAT JOB. THE PREP WAS MY DANCE......"

****

2012

15. @avp0713
"@rinny02852 - Yes I've seen the "new" whop and I can bust that out too.  I put up all these old school dances a few years ago, but I do all the new dances too...  Sometimes when I DJ I have to get out there and break it down for the audience.... lol.

We had so much fun doing the wop;  there were a few different ways to do it."

**
16. @brooklynbaby2100
"I remember when my older brother taught me how to do this when I was still in Brooklyn I hate the new wop and Im only 16

****
2013

****
2014

17. @HarkeningGodsVoice
"Thank you for doing the "real" wop..not that new song that the kids today think it is.  Just like when those Harlem shake vids went viral and everyone forgot that an actual Harlem shake move had long since existed!"

**
18. @royaldigitalmedia
"Where's the wop?"

**
Reply
19, @avp0713
":33 to :55 but that is the '80s WOP.  They came out with THE WOP again in like 2008, but it's a sequence of steps.  I can do that one also,  but this vid is about '80s throwback dance moves."

****

2015

20. @NoHippieBBQCooking
"46 years old.. My generation knows this dance.. You nailed it.. Even got the hand on the hip at the end.. If people aren't older than lets say 42 they can't really understand"

****

2016

****

2017

 21. @creativequeen8371
"Thank you, Tony! This PROPER instruction on how to do the wop and those other brilliant old skool moves I try and buss (ailments allowing lol) in my house or when out with my equally old skool friends, just for the sake of old times. Not seen but one video that comes close to this. I love the wop move where you make a fist and throw you hand up, really slow, behind your head and bring it back down through the air slowly, but with force, eyes shut - to really show  you are feeling the music. Now THAT'S old skool. Love it!"

**
Reply
22. @ivargas220iv
"Thank you so much. Too many of today's kids do it different and I just can't with that.....thank you for keeping it old school"

** 
23.  @ofudgems
"Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy that's what I'm talkin' 'bout right there! Yeah, those were the days man! Respect!" 

****

2018

24. @zippieslugdelafluor9038
"Man...I could wop with the best of them back in the day. I still dig that one out when I dance. None of that twerking for me. Lol"

****
2019

****

2020

25. @leorionj
"Finally, the only video I found of the cabbage patch being done CORRECTLY! Get it, Tony!"

****

This concludes Part II of this two part pancocojams series.

Thanks for visiting pancocojams.

Visitor comments are welcome.

What The Terms "South Asian" And "Desi" Mean (With A University Journal Excerpt About Skin Color & South Asian/Desi People)

Edited by Azizi Powell

This pancocojams post presents excerpts from four online sources that can serve as an introduction to the terms "South Asian" and "Desi". This post also presents an excerpt of a journal article about skin color referents for South Asian/Desi people.

The content of this post is presented for socio-cultural purposes.
These excerpts are given with the hope that visitors will read the entire articles.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
-snip-
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2023/10/dougla-other-referents-in-caribbean-for.html for a related pancocojams post entitled ""Dougla" & Other Referents In The Caribbean For African-South Asian People".

****
ARTICLE EXCERPTS
These excerpts are numbered for referencing purposes only.

ARTICLE EXCERPT #1
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia
"South Asia is the southern subregion of Asia, which is defined in both geographical and ethnic-cultural terms. As commonly conceptualized, South Asia consists of the countries Afghanistan,[7] Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka.[8]

[...]

There is no clear boundary – geographical, geopolitical, socio-cultural, economical, or historical – between South Asia and other parts of Asia, especially Southeast Asia and West Asia.[22]

The common definition of South Asia is largely inherited from the administrative boundaries of the Indian Empire,[23] with several exceptions. The current territories of Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan which were the core territories of the British Empire from 1857 to 1947 also form the core territories of South Asia.[24][25] The mountain countries of Nepal and Bhutan, two independent countries that were not under the British Raj but were protectorates of the Empire,[26] and the island countries of Sri Lanka and Maldives are generally included. By various definitions based on substantially different reasons, the British Indian Ocean Territory and the Tibet Autonomous Region may be included as well.[27][28][29][30][31][32][33] Myanmar (Burma), a former British colony and now largely considered a part of Southeast Asia, is also sometimes included.[17][19][34] Afghanistan is also included by some sources.[17][19][35][36]"...

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ARTICLE EXCERPT #2
From https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/brown-desi-south-asian-diaspora-reflects-terms-represent-erase-rcna1886 Brown, Desi, South Asian: Diaspora reflects on the terms that represent, erase them

“They each have a place, but they don’t entirely encompass each of the others,” one activist said.

Oct. 6, 2021,By Sakshi Venkatraman
"Over the last several decades, the diaspora of the Indian subcontinent has been labeled, relabeled and lumped together too many times to count. Indian and Pakistani immigrants were known as “Black” in 1980’s United Kingdom. The U.S. census classified them as “white” in 1970, and a host of transnational solidarity movements have cycled them through lengthy acronyms and broad umbrella terms.

[…]

Meant to encompass people with roots in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and the Maldives (and within each country tons of distinct languages and cultures), the term “South Asian” was introduced in transnational movements in the ’80s.

Indo-Caribbeans and the diasporas in East Africa were also ushered into the movement and are now considered part of the label, Maira said.

“South Asian,” “brown” and “Desi” are three that are dominant today. For some, they’re apt names to describe inherently similar cultures and a connected history. Others say they paint over a vast array of peoples who make up the subcontinent and its diasporas. Erasure is rampant, some say, and it happens inside “South Asian” circles as much as outside them.

The debate has raged online for years — when referring to the diaspora, should we be as specific as possible or as inclusive as possible? And is there a way to do both?

The three terms sometimes don’t do what they were intended to, experts say, and it’s important to note that they don’t always mean the same thing.

[…]

Denali Nalamalapu, 26, who is South Indian American, said “South Asian” isn’t a single identity. When she describes herself or others, she likes to be regionally specific so everyone feels their backgrounds are being fully acknowledged.

Saying she’s from Andhra Pradesh, the state in India from which her family originates, might go over some people’s heads, she said. So when she is asked about her background, she tends to identify herself as “South Indian,” and that feels both holistic and distinct.

Nalamalapu said she thinks those in the U.S. also tend to recognize only North Indian culture when they think about South Asians. “They’re like, ‘What’s your favorite Bollywood movie?’” she said. “I don’t watch Bollywood. I watch Telugu movies or Tamil movies.”....

****
ARTICLE EXCERPT #3
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi
"Desi…is a loose term used to describe the people, cultures, and products of the Indian subcontinent and their diaspora,[3] derived from Sanskrit देश (deśá), meaning "land, country".[4] Desi traces its origin to the people of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh,[c][1] and may also include people from Sri Lanka, Nepal, the Maldives and Bhutan.[5][6][7]

Usage

The word Desi is widely used by South Asians, as well those of the South Asian diaspora, to describe themselves; those of South Asian origin, especially Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, use the term "as a means of asserting or reclaiming a sense of pride" in being South Asian, "particularly in the face of racism, discrimination, and stigmatization" of minorities in various parts of the world.[8] With regard to usage of the word Desi, Helen Kim writes:[8]

'Desiness imagines a more conhesive, pan-South Asian American community that goes beyond nation, class, and religion. Instead, a 'desi' South Asian American community comes together over its shared experiences of being positioned as non-White 'others', often cutting across differences in caste, class, religion, and gender. In the UK, the term 'desi' is commonly used to describe British [South] Asian forms of cultural production such as music, literature, and television programming. For example, shows such as Desi DNA, featured on the BBC and BBC Asian Network, cover all areas of current British [South] Asian popular culture such as film, music, and the visual arts, including fashion and style. Club nights that feature [South] Asian music such as bhangra and [South Asian] hip hop, as previously mentioned, are often billed as 'desi' nights. The Internet radio station DesiHits.com, rivaling the BBC Asian Network in cultural significance as well as in the number of young [South] Asian listeners, plays all the current [South] Asian hits, which allows one to browse online by artist and by genre, listing them under categories such as 'desi beats', 'Bollywood', and 'hip hop'.[8]

Among teenagers who have ancestral roots in the Indian subcontinent, the term Desi is "embraced to elucidate a new inclusive identity of South Asians in the USA, who participate as 'public consumers and producers of a distinctive, widely circulating cultural and linguistic forms'."[9] To this end, channels such as MTV Desi have recognized "the transnational nature of Desi youth culture, writers, producers, and VJs" and have shared "a range of topics relating to life in South Asia and the South Asian diaspora worldwide".[10]

"Desi" is sometimes perceived as offensive among some South Asian expatriates,[11] as they claim that it erases the diversity of cultural identities within the South Asian community,[12] and that it primarily identifies the dominant North Indian community while excluding other South Asian groups.[11][13] However, there are those who resist the label, citing historical Indian imperialism and cultural hegemony as reasons for their reluctance.[11] They believe that terms like "Desi" impose a homogenous identity and fail to acknowledge the pluralistic nature of South Asian communities.[13] Alternatives like "South Asian" or "Brown" have been proposed, but they also have their limitations and can be perceived as misleading or exclusive.[13] While some individuals find the term "South Asian" inclusive and encompassing, others feel it does not fully capture their specific backgrounds.[11] The complexity and diversity of the diaspora necessitate recognizing multiple identities and resisting the tendency to homogenize or erase particular communities.[13]

History

The word "Desi" comes from the Sanskrit word "Desh" meaning "country". The word "Desi" is used to refer to something "from the country" and with time its usage shifted more towards referring to people, cultures, and products of a specific region; for example, desi food, desi calendars, and desi dress."...

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ARTICLE EXCERPT #4
From https://scroll.in/global/975071/is-the-term-desi-offensive-some-south-asian-americans-think-so "Is the term ‘Desi’ offensive? Some South Asian Americans think so

‘Rather than solidarity, Desi feels like an imposition.’
Anisha Sircar, Dec 08, 2020
" "Is the term “Desi” offensive?

Despite its long-standing usage within the South Asian community around the world, over the last few years, many have increasingly stopped using the term.

Some believe that the term “Desi” refers exclusively to Indians and excludes other South Asians. They also claim that it seems to primarily identify a section of dominant, upper-caste Indians, erasing the gamut of other cultural identities.

Desi literally means native of a desh (“country”). In the context of South Asian diasporic communities in the US, it is used colloquially to refer to those of South Asian descent, invoking a pan-ethnic rather than nationally bounded category, according to a paper by Sunaina Maira, a professor of Asian American Studies at the University of California, Davis, and author of a book on South Asian youth culture titled Desis in the House.

Maira believes: “In India, it is sometimes used more pejoratively to index a ‘country-bumpkin’.”

Many prominent figures have joined the debate about how whether the term is an appropriate label for the South Asian diaspora.

Among them is a Mumbai-based man who runs the film-focussed Instagram page “Vintage Desi” anonymously. He said he has received several messages from Indian Americans in recent years for using the term in his handle.

“When I started my page in 2018, I didn’t really think too much about my handle name…” this person said. “But over the last two years, I’ve become more conscious of it and have been thinking of changing it.”

He said he had started the page to use vintage cinema as a way to make cultural theory more accessible.

But after his posts started getting traction, many Indian followers pointed out that the word Desi is “very North Indian”, he said. They drew parallels with the Facebook group “Subtle Curry Traits” that has come into the limelight for its racial stereotypes and largely North Indian, upper-caste representation.

It wasn’t supposed to be this way, this person said: “Desi wasn’t a term that was earlier used by the ‘urbane’ class that identifies with it now.” …

****
ARTICLE EXCERPT #5
From Vinay Harpalani, To Be White, Black, or Brown? South Asian Americans and the Race-Color Distinction, 14
WASH. U. GLOBAL STUD. L. REV. 609 (2015),

https://openscholarship.wustl.edu/law_globalstudies/vol14/iss4/9

Washington University Global Studies Law Review

"[page] 609
 
INTRODUCTION: COLORING RACE

People often use race and color terminology interchangeably in common parlance. When the renowned African American scholar W.E.B. Du Bois stated that “the problem of the twentieth century is the problem of the color line,”1  he was referring to rampant and overt racism faced by African Americans and non-European peoples all over the world. Within the United States, color terminology often dominates racial discourse due to common use of color-based racial designations such as “Black” and “White.” Color is thus often used as a synonym for race,2  but while the two do overlap, color is also distinct from race as colorism is from racism.3 The two are

[page] 610

intertwined, and it can be difficult to tease apart. However, one group that illuminates the distinction between the two is South Asian Americans—peoples in the United States whose ancestry derives from the Indian subcontinent.4

 South Asian Americans are a group that does not fit neatly within the dominant racial categories of Black and White and have a racially ambiguous identity within the United States.5

This is partly because of the large variety of skin tones within the group. Because South Asian Americans have been classified in various racial categories and vary significantly in skin tone, their experiences can uniquely relay how race is related to color.

Recent events in the media illustrate South Asian American racial ambiguity and color variation. For example, in February 2015, the experiences of South Asian Americans gave new meaning to Michael Jackson’s song, “Black or White.”6  First, Louisiana Governor and 2016 Presidential hopeful Bobby Jindal quipped, “You mean I’m not White?” when asked about a commissioned portrait that depicted him with lightened skin tone.7

Jindal blamed the criticism of his lightened image on the liberals’ obsession with race describing the controversy as “silly” and calling for “the end of race in America.”8

Just one week later in Madison, Alabama, police officers beat and severely injured Sureshbhai Patel–a fifty-seven-year-old immigrant grandfather who had only been in the United States for one week–after a suspicious caller identified him as “a skinny Black guy.”9

These two incidents show that in different contexts, South Asian Americans can be viewed as “Black” or “White.” Other color labels, such as “Brown,” are also sometimes used for South Asian 

[page] 611

Americans.10 Contrary to Michael Jackson’s lyrics;11 however, it does matter how South Asian Americans are labeled—or how we choose to label ourselves.

Such contrasting racial identities are not new for South Asian Americans. Elsewhere, I have written in depth about South Asian American racial ambiguity both in my personal experience,12 and more broadly as part of the history of racial classification in America.13 Building on my recent presentation at the very successful and enlightening Global Perspectives on Colorism conference at Washington University in St. Louis,14 this essay focuses specifically on the role of color in delineating South Asian American racial identities. Race and racism are extremely complex phenomena, and skin color and colorism are only one aspect of racial hierarchy and racialization.15 Nevertheless, color is the most common visual feature and symbol associated with race, and the relationship between the two is revealing–particularly for a group such as South Asian Americans. As noted earlier, South Asian Americans possess a wide range of skin tones, but due to our ambiguous positions in

[page] 612

America’s racial landscape—a venue defined largely by the Black-White paradigm—our experiences complicate the link between race and color in interesting ways. This essay explores how color intersects with other factors—including both local and national politics—to determine the racial characterization of South Asian Americans.

First, Part I briefly examines the relationship between race and color more generally, and asserts that skin color is the primary physical feature associated with race. In many cases, color has become a metaphor for race, but race is a social and political status that involves many dimensions beyond color. Traditionally, racial status has been associated with ancestry, but it has evolved to incorporate many other components often based on stereotypes and other forms of status. This essay further argues that individual actors can make claims to racial statuses, or can have those statuses ascribed on to them by others,16 and that skin color–or in the case of Jindal’s portrait, presentation of one’s skin color–is a part of this process. Color is thus an important component of the social construction of race, but it is by no means solely or even primarily determinative of race. Rather, social and political factors related to the situation and/or local environment play a large role.17

Second, Part II analyzes the role of skin color in the characterization of South Asian Americans as “White.” It takes a historical approach, starting with the racial prerequisite cases—where Whiteness was a legal status necessary for naturalization as a U.S. citizen—and proceeding up to Bobby Jindal’s recent comment and the notion of “honorary Whiteness.”18 

This Part examines both claims and ascriptions with respect to Whiteness, highlighting how skin color has usually not been the determining factor in whether South Asian Americans were considered to be “White.”

Third, Part III considers skin color in relation to the characterization of South Asian Americans as “Black.” Ascriptions of Blackness onto South

[page] 613

Asian Americans can result from misidentification, which may have been the case in the aforementioned incident involving Sureshbhai Patel. Such ascriptions can also serve to denigrate South Asian Americans as the “other”—through association with Black people. This Part examines the role of skin color in such ascriptions, and also in claims to Blackness by South Asian Americans. Although the latter are far less common than claims to Whiteness or ascriptions of Blackness, this Part highlights a recent example: the revelation by Vijay Chokal-Ingam—the relatively dark-skinned brother of Indian-American actress and comedian Mindy Kaling19—that he pretended to be Black on his medical school applications.20 Similar to Whiteness, this Part concludes that, while skin color can play a role in characterizations of South Asian Americans as Black, other factors are more significant.21

Fourth, Part IV considers other color and race-linked identities attributed to South Asian Americans–including “Brown.” This Part illustrates that, for all of these identities, there are facets that are much more significant than skin color.

Finally, the Conclusion discusses implications of the above for understanding race and racism, and also colorism as a phenomenon distinction from racism—one of the important aims of the Global Perspectives on Colorism conference.22"...

**** 
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.

Visitor comments are welcome.

The Blue Vein Society & The Brown Paper Bag Test: For Light Skinned People Only (YouTube video & comments)

Ti's Hot Mess History, Feb 7, 2022

If you have ever had even a surface level conversation about blacks in The United States of America, chances are that you have heard of the brown paper bag test or the paper bag test. Very briefly, in case you haven’t heard of it…

The brown paper bag test is an early 1900’s discriminatory practice that blacks used against other blacks - in which an individual’s skin tone is compared to the color of a brown paper bag.  One was said to pass the test by having a skin tone that matched the hue of the paper bag or was lighter than the paper bag. What did passing the test mean? Access to privileges. Those privileges could be anything from gaining membership to sororities, fraternities and other social clubs to gaining admission to schools and even churches. Definitely not an example of black people at our finest hour.

But today, I want to discuss the black and partially black people who opened the door that allowed the paper bag test to become a reality. The lighter black Americans who used the brown paper bag test as a tactic to distance themselves from darker black Americans actually had a predecessor group of light complexion blacks, biracials, mulattos, quadroons and octoroons who prided themselves on THEIR proximity to whiteness; and saw dark complexioned black as inferior.  The pre-brown paper bag testing group was called the Blue Vein Society. As their name suggests, they delighted in having skin that was so white, that their blue veins could be seen through it. And they wanted absolutely nothing to do with other blacks whose veins were concealed by their dark skin. And they went out of their way to make their disdain for those dark skinned blacks to be made public.”….
-snip-
The narrator indicates that the first mention of Blue Vein Society was in a newspaper in 1873.

****
Edited by Azizi Powell

This pancocojams post showcases a YouTube video and some comments from its discussion thread about The Blue Vein Society and the brown paper bag test. 

Most of these comments in this compilation are from African Americans. A few commenters are from people from the Caribbean and elsewhere.

The content of this post is presented for historical, socio-cultural, and educational purposes.

All copyrights remains their owners.

Thanks to Ti's Hot Mess History for researching and publishing this video and thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
-snip-
The term "Blue Vein Society" wasn't the name of any particular organization or organizations (institutions), but refers to the type of social organizations/institutions that prohibited membership or participation by people whose skin was darker than a certain complexion.

Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2023/03/article-excerpt-lousiana-creole-people.html for the closely related pancocojams post entitled "Article Excerpt - "Louisiana Creole People" (as historical background for information & comments about the Blue Vein Societies and the brown bag tests)."

****
DISCLAIMER: Some commenters specifically mentioned Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc, Jack & Jill of America, and The Links as Blue Vein Society (type) organizations. This is a small example of the social organizations that either considered themselves or were considered "Blue Vein Societies.

Judging from online content, these organizations no longer adhere to these colorist rules.

Click Wikipedia links for information about these organizations.

****
SELECTED COMMENTS FROM THIS VIDEO'S DISCUSSION THREAD

These comments are numbered for referencing purposes only. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJR-jpHOA84&t=33s

2022

1. Lailah Lynn Media
"Awesome video, Ti.  A lot of people deny this type of history.  But it's real and it's affected generations of people."

**
Reply
2. Ti's Hot Mess History
"Thank you so much, Lailah!  You're right.  It WAS real and is real now.  There's even denial in this comment section.  It's shameful."

**

Reply
3. Leah Ben Israel
"Also in the Caribbean"

**
4. Addicted To Success
"Colorism, featurism (typically hate against our nose and lips), and texturism (hate against Afro textured hair) is still HIGHLY rampant in our community. We need to do better! Dark skin women are the ones mainly impacted now."

**
5. Beautiful IsDifferent
"Unfortunately, we are still living like this today!  As a little girl I was called every derogatory name because I am dark skin. Just thinking about it hurts me!  Thanks for the video! I never heard about the Blue vein Society."

**
6. S Larvadain
"I’m from New Orleans and yes this was true in many households at one time. I believe my great grandparents were like that just because one of my grandfathers is darker and he said he had to meet my grandmother’s parents to get approval. It’s something that no one should be proud of."

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Reply
7. green byrd
"@S Larvadain  No, it is definitely not something to be proud of. Something similar happened to my uncle. A classmate from college took him home for the weekend and was told not to bring him back. This was in 1968. Everyone in her family was very light, and they let him know (through their non-verbals) that he was not considered to be their equal. Pathetic!"

**
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8. S Larvadain
"T La I’m definitely aware but was sharing my family’s experiences because my city was notorious for colorism at one time.  So that was enough to deal with. I’m on a lighter spectrum and feel bad for how that slave mentality divided us and still to this day in many ways."

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Reply
9. S Larvadain
"@green byrd  Definitely !  I’m just happy my siblings and I wasn’t raised with that mindset."

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10. green byrd
" @S Larvadain  Me too! 😊"

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11. La Jo
"My daddy called them the 7th Warders because that's where the light skins lived when he was growing up in the late 40's-60's"
-snip-
This comment refers to the 7th Ward New Orleans, Louisiana neighborhood.

**
Reply
12. La Jo
"Also the Autocrat Club was light skinned and shunned the darker skins which is why the Zulu club was created. When whites started wanting to be a part of Zulu then so did they"

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Reply
13. S Pecan
"Don't forget the backwoods of North Carolina. Colorism is alive and well."

**
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14. Just Andrea
"My mom told me not to adopt a dark skinned child because they would not look like my husband and I. I was like, come on man. That's crazy. But she grew up in Mississippi and that's how they think. I am very very fair but I've always wanted to be darker."

**
Reply
15. Laurie Williams
"So true when i was growing up i use to hear black boys say my mother or aunt or grandma told me to marry a white woman so i can have pretty kids when i grow up.A lot of black people feel that way today,When a black man don't have anything he'll want that black woman by his side,but let that joker become famous,he will want everything except a black woman.The black man go to thinking that their better than us.Check out the NFL sports.Their wives or girlfriends are white or mixed with another race.Just because you marry outside your race don't mean your kids will be pretty!!!"

**
Reply
16. S Larvadain
"@Laurie Williams   It’s funny you mention white women. My mom always said back in the day they would get money and get them a high yellow woman 😂. My mom said they don’t even want us (light skinned women) anymore, they want straight up white because they’ve got easier access to them now."
-snip-
"high yellow" = informal term for a very light skinned person

**
Reply
17. TG Hamilton
"Yep, the women were also called the Washington, D.C. Pinks.:

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Reply
18. green byrd
"@TG Hamilton  OMG! 🙄"

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Reply
19. TG Hamilton
"@green byrd  My 80+ year old elders are light skinned. They were too dark for the DC Pinks, but a few cousins were white passing. They were also DC Pinks back in the day."

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Reply
20. green byrd
"@TG Hamilton  Fix it Jesus! 😂"

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Reply
21. TG Hamilton
"@green byrd  Mostly deceased now, but I didn't even know that some of my own second cousins were white passing. I was like....WHAT?!* But, I get it. There was a time when their survival may have depended on it as there were hard and obvious barrier to prosperity and education if you were Black. It is what it is/was."

**
Reply
22. green byrd
"@TG Hamilton  Sad, but true."

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Reply
23. JaMarcia Clay
"South America as well"

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Reply
24. Christa
"As a native of south Louisiana I can confirm this is accurate.  There are a few other Louisiana communities that can be added to the list."

**
Reply
25. sand mors
"Green Byrd, don't also forget in Georgia, especially in the ATL area and Methodist! My grandfather's family were for the most part all light skinned, Methodist and had businesses and trade. My grandfather married a dark skinned, beautiful, smooth skinned, high cheek bone, silky haired black woman and his family tried to lose contact with him."
-snip-
"ATL"= Atlanta, Georgia

**
Reply
26. green byrd
"@sand mors  Wow. Never heard that about Methodists, but I was Methodist growing up and come to think of it, they did have a thing about the "big important" churches preferring light skinned pastors. So crazy!"

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Reply
27. Nicole Smith
"Yes it the Caribbean there's a lot of colorism. There was a saying that was said by my great grandmother it goes if you black stay back, if you brown stick around and if you're white/fair skin welcome or come around something to that effect. This whole thinking 🤔 and mentality came  from slavery and trickled down to our grandparents and parents. We need to break this cycle but I still see colorism being perpetuated in our generation and society which is pretty sad and stupid 😔 at the same time."

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Reply
28. green byrd
"@Nicole Smith  You're from the Caribbean? I'm from Ohio and I heard the same saying, just phrased a little differently: "If you're white, you're alright. If you're yellow, you're mellow. If you're brown, stick around. But if you're black, get back." So, from the beautiful Caribbean to land locked Ohio, looks like the same foolishness is embedded in the culture.  You're right. It is sad and stupid."

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Reply
29. sand mors
"@TG Hamilton  but there was some passers that also helped the black cause, example: there was a multiracial man who passed as white and infiltrated the KKK and shared that information with black groups preventing possible lynchings and house burning. Not all light skinned people are against their dark skinned brethren. I say, use it to your advantage if you can pass to help your people."
-snip-
"passers" = people with some Black African descent who "passed" for White

**
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30. Foluke Bady
"As a Washingtinian you are absolutely  correct. I saw it as a child and teen and furthermore, I see it in more discreet cunning ways in industries, sororities, spiritual organizations."

**
30. Nichola Lewis
"This video is a lot to unpack! I've never heard of the Blue Vein Society, but growing up in the New Orleans 7th ward I'm familiar with the brown paper bag test. Colorism deeply affected families by pitting the light against the darker relatives. The lighter your complexion and the more European features you had, you were crowned the "favorite". Imagine being a child and only seeing pictures of your light complexioned relatives featured prominently around the house while the darker relatives were in the photo album."

**
31. Chica Robertson
"Color-struck is what we used also.. It's now called colorism..."

**
32. An Uncolonized Mind
"I am so tired of this Light skinned vs Dark skinned mess.

I have heard My mom say negative things all my life.

 My mom was born in the 40s & is light skinned & brainwashed.. still to this day.

My little brother is light like her &  our dad is dark skin, I came out somewhere in the middle. So she always favored him more, than she does me.

My dad used to say she is "color struck" I honestly don't know how, they came to be married. 🤷🏾‍♀️

We are all black, no matter the shade. This has always seemed very stupid to me."

**
33. Ronald Higgins
"It's a sad sickness that we as black folks are going to have to keep dealing with. It hasn't entirely gone away. Its not as blatant and ugly as it was years ago, but it is still with us. I had an aunt who would always tell me to get a light skin yellow gal. I paid her no mind. Plus I was a young boy at the time and didn't  really understand the depth of that comment. Now that I am much older and do, how sad it was."

**
34. karlkilcrease51
"Here in Pittsburgh, up to the early 1970's our high yellers were called The Five Hundreds. They had a private club, The Loendi and they held the paper bag test close to their hearts. We laughed at these wannabes, with their heads full of fur, and regardless of how light they were, the Pittsburgh whites still called them "The N Word," with impunity."
-snip-
Pittsburgh - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

**
35. lionessawaking42412
"My dad taught me about the paper bag test….he hated it. My dad could ‘pass’ the test and yet he hated how divisive it was to black community.

**
36. Darren Ridley
…."it starts with us being brutally honest about the situation. There are no groups, organizations even cities or towns that excluded light skin blacks. This doesn't mean light skin blacks didn't have colorism issues , it's just not the same."

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Reply
37. BlindMellowJelly
" @Darren Ridley  True but I heard tales of how when a light guy came into one of the juke's back in the day men would pull guns on them cause they thought they would mess with their wife or GF. Many do not know how painful it is for a entire Town to turn their back on you because you might be light. Cab Calloway and Duke Ellington spoke of this and how relatives and loved ones just hated them for no real reason. That is the conditioning whitey passed on to them and they arent educated enough to have seen the pain. I have a whole side of my families (both sides) that will never ever know me or my grandchildren because of this topic. I just hope one of mine does not marry any and create genetic f—kery*.
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.

**
38. Yona Avraham
"I knew about both the blue vein society and the intraracial prejudice in the black race.

Nothing has changed.Today they call it a preference,but if you look at celebs and who is promoted it's still the light skinned woman over the dark skinned woman and the dark skinned man over the lighter skinned man."

**
Reply
39. Tee Willi
"Even in commercials. You rarely see brown or dark skinned little girls. In the off chance that the family is brown to dark, only the little girl will light or look "mixed" with softer textured big hair. It's not much better for brown and dark women. And the more black people are in commercials, the more light, or mixed big haired black women appear. Also notice how it's mostly black people paired with non-black partners in commercials. This is rarely seen for other races."

**
40. Gemini Queen
"I have a friend whose mother would have passed the brown paper bag test, and whose father would not have passed.  She said her father told her, "don't ever think that you're better than someone else because you are lighter than them, because that means that anyone who's lighter than you is better than you."  She also said her mother grew up poor and her father was the one who was privileged."

**
41. Janita Poe, Ph.D.
"We have the rainbow in my extended family and I can tell you, as some know, this issue cuts ALL ways:

1) The valuing of light exists in Black people of all hues. In fact, the most over-the-top hate towards the darker-skinned fam that I've seen has come from medium-skinned peeps who seem to care a lot about color.

2) A lot (not all!) of light-skinned blacks wish they were darker and try very hard to be loved by the only community they've ever known.

3) As a people, we may bully the darkest child on the playground but as adults it's absolutely the reverse. e.g. It is the norm for a sister to say "I'm not attracted to light skinned men" -- often right in front of them -- and no one blinks (Imagine the reverse. All h... would break loose on the speaker). "The blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice" is an anthem in some circles as are other sayings that uplift and affirm our darkest.

My view is that the healing needs to happen for us all."

**
42. Exquisite Beauty by Jacqueline
"Hello Ti, unfortunately I knew about most all of this. Colorism is alive.  It runs on both sides, light and dark, and keeps people divided.  My great great aunts , grandmother and great aunts were some of the school teachers in those days.  Many of them left the deep south to teach in the north.    Also, my quadroon grandad stopped speaking to my mom for five years because she married a dark man!  Her first love, was very light like her, and granddad liked him.  I knew about those stupid tests because I grew up in Alabama, and they still did a bit of that during my lifetime.  Great episode!"

**
Reply
43. Exquisite Beauty by Jacqueline
"@Ashanti Edwards  I have no side in this mess.  My parents are from the opposite spectrum of appearance.  My dark skinned dad always told me he chose my mom because in his words "black ____are evil".  So obviously there was some self hatred there.  I actually was excluded from a club my darker biological brothers belong to because I take after my mom, and was considered "watered down".  "Y all" must mean you are generalizing based on my appearance, and that defines the problem."

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Reply
44. Ashanti Edwards
"@Exquisite Beauty by Jacqueline  clearly you have a side because after all that was presented in the video you commented that colorism is on both sides. You cant find examples of dark skinned blacks doing all the things the light skinned blacks have done throughout history. What's the name of this club that excluded you? Generalizing based on your light skin doesnt define the problem at all. Making death threats and harassing people for no other reason that they are dark skinned defines the problem. Excluding people from the workforce because they are dark skinned defines the problem. Coveting your white blood defines the problem. Stop tryna deflect from that with petty examples that clearly are the extreme exception and tryna equate them to the behavior that was the rule for light skinned people."

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Reply
45. Jessica Williams
"@Ashanti Edwards  Darkskinned folks may not have formed groups and alienated lightskinned folks, but getting bullied everyday because of your complexion is more than some hurt feelings. I didn't have to go through this, but my lightskinned sisters did. My brother, although he is light as well didn't go through it because they were too afraid of him. Black people as a whole have abused each other, but everyone wants to act like abuse against lightskinned black folks is okay, or they try to downplay it like it is nothing serious or just some hurt feelings."

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46. S Larvadain
"Being from New Orleans, I’ve heard of the paper bag test from my grandparents. Most of the beautiful sisters holding up the paper bag in your video would not have passed.  My family is an old Creole family and that is one of the embarrassing stain on black American history."

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Reply
47. S Larvadain
"Curly💞 I never said being Creole is an embarrassment. I said colorism is an embarrassing stain on the black community.  I’m Creole on both sides, born and raised in New Orleans with family who still speak Creole.  I’m true to it but we can’t deny that many Creole families practiced colorism."

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48. Felicia Jenkins
"I grew up in the 70's-80's and unfortunately have some relatives who don't want anything to do with me cause I'm not light skin. I was the darkest one in my house but never got that kind of rejection from my mother who is very light or brother.  Meanwhile those relatives I've been fortunate enough to not be around are not missed."

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49. David Buirst
"I saw some documentaries about Creoles that blew my mind. I couldn't believe so much started from that including sororities, fraternities and social clubs..

Love the fact you said it produced cycles that lasted generations and still exist"

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50. Terminator X
"My grandma once encountered a paper bag party at Tuskegee University…She was denied entry."

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51. Nicole Smith
"Rosa Parks was not the first person to not give up her seat on the bus. A few years prior there was a 15 year old girl named Claudette Colvin read up on her that did this not giving up her seat on the bus. But the difference between Rosa and Claudette was colorism and ageism. Rosa got the shine cause of being lighter hue than Claudette also Rosa was mature in age. While Claudette the true and first activist remained in the back for us to research."

**
52. N̳o̳v̳a̳☆HittingTheGroundRunning ♏️2.0
"This reality is a painful part of my childhood.

Colorism is horrible in the Caribbean community"

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53. Alfreda Gross
"I am a great grandma!  The year 1967. Because the inside of my wrist is light with blue veins running through I was invited to join our neighborhood light skin girls, bougie, upper class club. Sadly beautiful girls darker than a paper bag were never asked.to join. Afro hair, I’m black and I’m proud was shameful to most of our light skinned parents,  Doctors , Judges , Attorneys , teachers, preachers who so called arrived were full of self hate. SMH"

**
54. Sheila B
"It's sad we still live in these days and times. My mother was 1 of 14 all by the same man and woman . Different complexions dark skin , light skinned, bright and pecan. Not once did any of them think they were better than the other. My mom never raised her children to think or feel less than. Yes, I'm light skinned came from a beautiful pecan woman, my biological mother. Only classmates made an issue of being light.   Not my family. People still haven't grown up."

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Reply
55. Jessica Williams
"Amen!! I'm brown from a very lightskinned mother and she never raised us to be that way. I raise my girls the same way. People start in on complexion conversation with them and they look at them like they are stupid. It's so many more important things in life than somebody's blue veins and paper bags. I hate that it was our people who came up with this dumb ish!!"

**
56. biggasmelly
"Great Story Thank you.

This mindset still exists in Jamaica to this day. Where Light skinned Black people and very Light skinned Black people who look nearly white are called "BROWNING" They get all the top jobs in the Banks, and nearly all major corporations. In the Parliament they are the majority compared to the darker skin Black politicians. Historically it has always been this way in Jamaica since the abolition of Slavery. Take a look at a photo of the current Prime Minister of Jamaica to see what i am speaking about.."

**
57. Andrea Brown
"This is so true my mom family treated darker skin people like myself and darker like they were less than I just thought it was something that was done only in her family but as I got older I noticed that not only did this happen in my mom family it was happening every where. Which is so unfortunate because my dad is light skin that if he wanted to he could pass for another race he never did that thankfully he taught me that no matter what you look like or what complexion I am I was special to him thank you dad for that❤️"

**
58. gabriella johnson
"Girrrrl you have just blown my mind!! Omgawd I thought Spike Lee movie “School Daze” was deep but this “Blue Vein Society “ is scary because I’m dark skinned and it still carry’s on in Chicago and in the BLACK COMMUNITY"

**
59. Thomas Malone
"I've heard about this. My (now) late grandmother used to talk about her aunt Sarah being in a sorority that was afflicted* with the blue vein society. She always made it sound like a badge of honor or something.it is the first time i ever heard of something my grandmother would talk about in actual history."
-snip-
*Afflicted= is a typo for “affiliated”

**
60. Melanie Allen
"Great video! I’m from and live in Shreveport, LA. I never knew Shreveport had it’s own Blue Vein Society. Colorism has really done a number on our community."

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61. Minsky Brown
"That was a fascinating and well produced video, thank you.

As a Black Brit of Caribbean descent I had heard stories of my maternal Grandmother showing & telling people her blue veins and stating that she was royalty. I now get the context which may have caused her to do so in the 1920's.

And yes, please do the vid on colourism pre slavery."

**
62. Jane Toler
"Yes,  I knew about the Blue Vein Society. My mother told me about it. She said one of the largest Baptist church in Washington  D.C. was a blue vein church until a light skinned preacher came to that church as their new pastor and his wife was dark skinned. The church changed after that."

**
63. Black Butterfly
"I subscribed!  Thank you for the video and sad that this behavior is generational.... I remember being treated differently growing up being darker than my light skinned sisters. I was literally called a 'tar baby' going to an all white school in the 80's!!!!!! But lo and behold in '98' I was asked if I was my son's nanny because he's light skinned and me being that dark skinned woman. The feeling that came behind that question - I can not put into words..."

**
64.  Squalli 1
"I didn't know what colorism was until I went to school in the 50's & was called "high yellow." I later learned this was taught in the home that I didn't learn. As an adult in the 70's, I have applied at Black owned businesses which practiced the brown paper bag rule. One employer did not hire an applicant unless his wife gave the okay-appearance mattered to her. I believe colorism starts in the home & the women whom run them. Girls are highly impacted by colorism growing up as they see female celebs/entertainers & their impact on our society. It somehow trickles down generationally."

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65. Mz. Jackson
"This is a topic that truly hits home for me on a very personal level and has profoundly shaped and impacted my own sense of identity, community and belonging for as far back as I can remember. And unlike the experience of many of my fellow mixed or light complected black Americans, my upbringing was quite unusual in that I am descended from multiple generations of so-called  "Blue vein" Negroes dating all the way back to at least the time of  the Louisiana Purchase and most likely even earlier, however records, dairies, ledgers and other documents produced prior to the American Revolution are nearly impossible to come by - especially with respect to those forebears who were enslaved. As an historian and archivist of Black Diasporic Studies, I have spent a great number of years researching my family's lineage on both maternal and paternal sides and have been quite successful in obtaining a relatively substantial trove of information regarding my ancestors, although to be fair, any success is credited mainly to the impeccable collection of family paperwork, letters, journals and photos my grandmother had accumulated over the course of her impressive life of 102 years and bequeathed unto me shortly before her passing.

Speaking of passing (lol), my paternal grandmother spent the greater portion of her life assuming the identity of a Spanish woman or sometimes a French woman, depending upon the audience or situation. As a light skinned Creole woman growing up in the Jim Crow South, she, like her parents and their parents before them, had belonged to that unique  self-appointed class of privileged black people whose fair skin, naturally wavy to straight hair and  seemingly European looking features earned her an "elite"  status recognized by both blacks and whites ever since the first biracial babies began to appear in the western hemisphere shortly after the arrival of Columbus. Lighter skinned blacks typically enjoyed a significantly higher "privileged" status than their darker counterparts in just about every colony and nation in the New World,  particularly in such places as Saint Domingue (Haiti), Brazil, Cuba, Argentina and the United States, however it should be noted that the practical advantages awarded by such privileges varied astronomically between colonies and even between states. In some very rare instances, lighter blacks were granted some of the same rights as Whites. In Saint Domingue, for example, prior to the Haitian Independence, a series of codes de Noire or black codes were passed by France outlining the rights and privileges afforded to the gens de colour libere or free men of color. These people were nearly exclusively mixed or light complected blacks and were often the offspring of unions between French elite and black enslaved women. They were permitted to receive an education- often studying in France in order to obtain the finest education- and they could own property, serve as high ranking officers in military, and even serve in government.  This rare and unprecedented legislative display of favoritism created a strong division among Haitians which is still very heavily felt today.

In the U.S., it is perhaps unsurprising that a similar tradition of favoritism would develop in New Orleans,  due most likely to the tremendous French influence of the city. Even long after Louisiana entered the US as a state and adopted a much harsher legislative attitude towards free blacks, New Orleans more or less maintained its traditions with respect to the more privileged  treatment of lighter skinned folks.

From that tradition  emerged the Creole community from which my family descended. After the end of slavery in 1865, my great-great grandfather established a bank and even served in local government for a term before being forced out by Klan. Nonetheless , he and his wife lived quite well even when everyone around them were struggling. From what I've learned of them, I am ashamed to admit I find very little if anything redeemable about their character or lack thereof. They were elitists and, while I don't know whether they actually participated in the Blue Vein society, they were indeed poster children for the cause! This deep sense of arrogance and entitlement passed on down to their children and grandchildren  until, finally discarded by my dad. The psychological wounds, however, remain and today I struggle with the guilt and shame of inheriting a shameful legacy as well as the light skin and European features that unfairly won my forebears  unmerited favor and privilege in a society ruled by the very ones who beat and raped those like my great great great-grandmother whose children subsequently became the blue veins of the following generation."

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66. Bernadette Devereaux
"My mother’s side of the family had light skin and hazel eyes. My uncle married a woman that his mother and sisters always referred to her as “that Black gal” behind her back. Being called Black was quite offensive until James Brown’s “Say it loud. I’m Black and I’m proud.” "

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67. meeka boo
"I enjoyed watching. I learned some things about our history of colorist. I want to mention that Spike Lee's movie, School Daze gave a history lesson. In regards to Sororities and Fraternities and the inflected division based in skin color/tones."

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68. EbTheCeleb
"I’ll say this both my grandfathers (very dark men with wavy hair) married very high yellow women. My mother’s mom shunned her because she came out dark like her dad but her sister did not. It’s damaged my mother greatly and me a bit. Her mom was so mean to me as a baby. Im broken but I figure still obviously darker than her :( this is heartbreaking because it’s real. I’ve seen my mothers mom in town and pasty ass would tilt her head up n walk right past me. I mean she was white! Her only give away was her hair she had very course hair."

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69. Frances Walker
"Just to let you know, being called "high yella" is offensive just as it is offensive calling someone "Nig-a*", "darkie", "blackie", "blurple", etc. I don't know why brown skin people think it's okay to talk about light skinned people calling them "high yella"! It is NOT OKAY to say "HIGH YELLA!""
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.

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70. kerman725 n5
"Cab Callaway insisted that his dark skinned dancers after he took over from Duke Ellington.  He insisted that they be paid higher wages.  His popularity was so strong the owners gave in."

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71.  E Dow
"No one mentioned the second test.  Run a fine  tooth comb through your hair, if it catches a snag, you failed.  I passed the paper bag test but failed the hair test."

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72. I'am V
"And most of them wouldn't pass the hair test or the size test as well.  Because most of them probably don't have the size of top model Naomi Campbell.  That goes to show you black people as a whole need to wake up out of foolishness."

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73. Sandra Brooks
"In my family I had heard bring home someone who can use my comb. But our family feels we Black Black period. Cause white Privilege only see Black from the darkest to the lightest. We still Black"

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74. Cathy Moore
"Thank you for this video Ti. I never knew such an organization ever existed. I know colorism is asinine, but this group of black folk really took it to another level. Everything you told us about the " blue vein" was terrible, but the story about them threatening the dark skin man's life because he was with a light skin woman was the worse one for me."

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75. Brandon Page
"Thanks Ti, for once again, digging up little known black history facts. I definitely have never heard of the blue vein society, & it's disgusting to know that blacks were doing that to each other, so soon after slavery ended. Well, I definitely would not pass the brown bag test, lol, but my father would, as he is part German, & very light skinned. My mother was a beautiful dark skinned black woman.

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76. Kathleen King
"Some of those "blue veiners" passed for white and left the black community entirely"

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77. SJanez91
"Thanks for this information Ti! I've heard of the Blue Vein Society before. Stedman Graham, Oprah's man and Maria Cole, Nat King Cole's wife families were allegedly were part of that society. I remember Natalie Cole's autobiography, Maria and her family were something else. They did not want her marrying Nat because he was DS, they didn't care that he was wealthy and famous either. Maria's first husband was an Tuskegee airmen named Neal Spurgeon Ellington who died two years after they got married was LS so they looked at Nat as an downgrade for Maria."

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78. Supremmo
"There were two books some years back that covered this topic. One was the Color Complex and the other was Our Kinda People by the late Lawrence Otis Graham. Check those two books out when you have a chance."

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79. can i kickit
"Thank you so much for making this video Ti...sometimes when I try to talk to people about colorism.... they try to sweep it under the rug, act like it's something new or act like it doesn't exist at all...I keep telling people colorism has been around in our community and even  more intimately in our own families..we need to first acknowledge it, then learn more about it and lastly have healthy discussions so as not to repeat the destructive behaviors...self reflection can be hard but it is sooo necessary for change....this was an awesome video well done👏👏"

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80. Dieezah Translator-Songwriter
"News flash: some people still think in this manner. This isn't a problem of the past although it tends to manifest in different ways now... And it isn't restricted to the U.S., sadly..."

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81. Valley girl
"I just found your channel. I grew up in this population. My mother was in all the social clubs that upheld this mindset till the early 70's when the Civil Rights movement finally penetrated these groups. My family and I were the darkest in those groups for years. we squeaked through because we are the color of the paper bag and my father had a DR., to his name. I also think because we are a West Indian family on both sides. I remember my HS boyfriend and his family passed and his mother couldn't stand me because I didn't pass. My grandfather passed and when he took my mom to Barbados to see family for the first time when she was 5, her aunts couldn't understand why my mother was so black. My mom was lighter than a paper bag and never forgot that or the feeling of being unwanted.. Don't get me wrong. I loved my childhood. I always felt like a stranger in a strange land."

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82. A.D. Owens
"My wife’s grandmother told me about the paper bag and blue vein parties in NYC. She was fairly light too, but she didn’t get in the parties."

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83. Tzuriah
"I had never heard of the paper bag test or the blue veined society. They make my heart hurt."

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84. Kaleah Collins
"My aunt would scrub my skin with Ajax when I bathed . I got darker as I got older. But I was at least the color of the brown paper bag as a little girl my veins still show through my red tinted skin She would tell me about the test and that I would pass still because my hair wasn't nappy and though I was brown skin I was Carmelo tone with red tint . I didn't have such features many would say no your not really black you dnt look Real black you dnt have black features or hair 🤔.  My 2x great grandmother who was native by birth but looked white she raised all 14 of her children as black . She passed as mulatto instead of Indian just so she didn't have to send her future children to the forced residential schools . She raised her children My great grandmother and all her siblings no matter the color as black . My own daughters could be considered as white in some ways. My eldest is lighter then my youngest but they are both very much racial ambiguous.  I show them and tell them these stories as well as stories the stories of how light skinned almost white children was still slaves and woman was used as whores for the rich elite."
-snip-
"Ajax" is a brand name for a household cleaning product that is not meant to be used on people's skin.

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85. You'll Like It Too
"Self hatred is as old as time itself. Blue Vein is new to me. Thanks for sharing!! Now, Jack and Jill are groups such as this are what I've heard of."

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86. Terrilyn Woodfin
"Unfortunately, I now understand why my mother and I were ostracized in darker skinned black communities. I still have remnants of trauma possibly because of this."

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87. elvmat1
"Thanks for the interesting video! I have certainly heard of the Blue vein society, paper bag test etc-I am from NC. Also, Washington DC was a particularly bad place for that cause they controlled the public schools and had some power. Most of these people had some social pull only. The nickname for many of the Light skinned DC folks was "the Pinks".  Whole towns in NC had mostly light Black people like the notorious Ashoskie. The tyranny of the Blue vein society was ended by the rise of HBCU's educating Black people of all complexions and with the better paying jobs and education for darker Blacks, many a Blue vein woman married a dark skinned professional man! A lot of that went out the window if  it was a wealthy doctor who was Dark versus a Blue vein who was just a Barber-same fools messing around about the dumb paper bag would move heaven and earth to get Light Mary to marry that doctor,lol! BTW, a lot of Blue vein jobs were actually service jobs around Whites like chefs, Barbers and seamstresses etc. When real educations and careers began to arise, many dark people outcompeted the Blue veins at HBCUS and elsewhere , and that caused way more mixing and less color segregation among Blacks. Colorism did not die of course but that organized Blue Vein stuff did. Plus some of the most active and helpful people in Civil rights were these almost white folks who helped go where darker folks could not go. A good book about the efforts of these folks to get rights for the whole race is "Light Bright and Damn near white" which Lena Horne's daughter complied. Its a great book!"

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88. Dieezah Translator-Songwriter
"The same way of thinking and acting often occured in the Caribbean colonies and mulattos would marry mulattos or quadroons. My great grandmother broke that streak when she fell under the spell of the dark-skinned black man who would become her spouse and the father of her 12 children. She fell for his educated mastery of French as he was making a public speech. He was one of the first black school teacher on the island after slavery was abolished... (Abolition here happened in 1848)"

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89. Ronda my music
"My first job I worked at a school that taught business , auto and cosmetology. The president was a very light skin woman with what some refer good hair. Once a month her society group (in the 1970's) would have their meeting in her conference room. Every woman was very light and a few could pass for white. I asked the other secretary who was very dark . Why are all of them light in this group. She just smile and wink as long as you can pass the paper bag test you can join. Never heard that before so when I went home I compare myself to a paper bag . (I know it was stupid,) Never paid attention to the color of bags . Just felt strange . Even though I was lighter than the bag. I felt I wouldn't want to be in there group. It just didn't feel right and it wasn't right."

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90. Catherine English
"There's a whole community in Camden Co NJ where all the folks are fair and had to marry fair skinned mates . My sister in law and her urban are a couple married in  this fashion .  My sister in law was  also the first black home coming queen in Pennsauken NJ ."

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91. Beth5171
"OOOOOOOOoooohhhh speak on it Sis!!!!! ❤❤❤❤💯💯Time to put some TRUTH on the subject...hello black Sororites and Fraternities!!😏💋"

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92. sherritay
"Oooo that's so true  my mother is very lite skined went to college a certain sorority who she remain nameless invited her to pledge they didn't look at a grade she had my mama could have been as dumb as a post but as long as that skin didn't get darker she was ok to pledge there sorrority my mother was very offended and pledged another sorrority"

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93. Beth5171
"@sherritay  Wow!! How disgusting! And while you are ever gracious and polite in saying they shall remain nameless, I'm not as gracious 😂😂❤

Definitely sounds like an AKA move 😏

🐷&🐸 Pink and Green 😊"

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94. sherritay
"@Beth5171  now see I wasn't naming any names lol but my mom did go on to pledge DST"
-snip-
"DST" =Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.

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95.Kelly Variste
"Bravo!👏👏👏 I enjoyed watching this video I grew up in New Orleans in the 1980's and 90's and I can attest from firsthand experience the intra-racial division and the blatant colorism. New Orleans society is a three tier racial class system black, white and creole nothing in-between well at least prior to Hurricane Katrina. Now this where it gets complicated you had dark-skinned creoles who looked like Tatiana Ali or Philip Michael Thomas who were just as elitist as the light-skinned ones because they were the product of elitist freed dark-skinned blacks who were social climbers and intermarried into these light-skinned black families. So consequently these folks became the black elite so unfortunately to this day those elite black families are the New Orleans's black bourgeoisie that are involved in every level of local politics and the business class. These people are so siddity tell it ain't even funny the ultimate sell-outs. So this video really brought me back home for sure."

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96.  Cindy
"Colorism goes both ways! I am multiracial. Just like my Scandinavian mother, I was born with blonde hair and blue eyes and yep, you can see my blue veins! Growing up in a predominantly black neighborhood was hell for me, as I heard  things like how "I thought I was cute" "Zebra", "Halfbreed" and even more vicious, hateful comments on a daily basis. I grew up with dark skinned girls I barely knew, wanting to fight me just because of how I looked.  Funny when racism is the topic, that flip side I experienced, is rarely mentioned. I would have joined the Blue Veined Club in a minute! At least I would have been accepted!"

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97. 17thNO
"Same here born in New Orleans in the late 70s and raised in the 80s and 90s. It was wild how that color thing was. But...then when darker brothers were becoming the street dudes/dope boys that was runnin thangs and would do anything to get a "fiya red girl" and would give up all their bread to get them, the red girls started flocking to them. Also some of the darker girls would do anything to have lightskinned "cute/pretty" babies. So things changed."
-snip-
"Red girls" = probably refers to "redbones", an informal, usually considered non derogatory term that refers to particular shades of light brown, particularly with red tinges

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98. Kelly Variste
" @17thNO  Ah yes! You described it perfectly. That color thing was just as bad as the race thing not just color but hair texture and facial features. All of those traits or characteristics was directly associated with your class and familial status. Classism in New Orleans is so multi-layered it's not enough space to explain it all.😂😂😂"

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99. 17thNO
"@Kelly Variste  Real we all felt it. Family, school, jobs, dating. It was crazy."

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100. Lechiffresix six
"@Kelly Variste  its like we can never a break from racism frankly. this one L we need to hold it even though colorism is a mutation of white supremacy but as conscious folk we need to kill it off.

 when black americans founded Liberia, Africa . they installed colorism , and a very rigid form of it down there . and because bad habits can never be erradicated."

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101. Denise Muhammad
"We Got A Lot Of Work To Do. I'm Thankful For Sisters Like Freddie Washington, Lena Horne And Brother Adam Clayton Powell Who Didn't Suvscribe To This Foolishness. They Hated Their Own, Hated Themselves, And Was Dealing With No Reality That Caucasian Race Rejected Them Also.. Its Sad, But We Are Still Experiencing This Sick Mindset, The Social Structure Of Amerika Has Assist This Type Of Thinking To  Develope into A System. We Must Straighten This Out, We Are Not Going Anywhere Without Each Other."

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102. DJDowe
"There were sororities, Jack and Jill and debutante balls only for light skinned people. My father went to Hampton because he was too dark for Howard in his day."

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103. Livi JoJo152
"They still have these clubs and sororities but the colorism is gone thankfully. Definitely in Jack and Jill and the soros. The old women's clubs are still kind of like this sadly. I think it's ending though. The Boomers are in charge of those more now. I think it was their parents who were just really holding onto all that, who got it from their parents, who were essentially coming from WEB Dubois and his lot. The Boomers grew up with the whole black pride movement and were going against their parents even though they had to be in the deb balls/cotillions still. My mom and aunts were involved in all that stuff but they were also sneaking out and protesting for the movement. They cared much more about the latter, but grew up and joined the clubs. Change happened. I do think this is still a horrible issue in our community that needs to be addressed, but this is the case from what I've observed being a child of this world."

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104. Christophiel
"Hate to tell you this but I got a LOT of hatred growing up from my darker skinned people.... I had to learn the hard way that I was hated for my skin color to the point where my life was in danger, my self esteem destroyed, and I had business trying to hang around people who made me and my family miserable.  Truth is darker skinned people in general hate light skinned people except for light skinned women who are coveted by dark skinned men."

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105. Janita Poe, Ph.D.
"No one wants to discuss this side of the issue, Christophiel. Our community is lock step with the narrative that light-skinned blacks think they are better when the truth is we ALL have issues around all these colors were were born into."

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106. Christophiel
"@Janita Poe, Ph.D.  Persecution, chased thru the halls at school, spit upon, social outcast.... Even the teachers got in on the 'fun'.  Not wanting to be around those who despise me does not equate to me thinking I'm better than them.  I was better treated by my white and Latin friends than I ever was by my so called brothers and sisters..."

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107. Memewalker B
"I grew up in an ethnic enclave where Blacks of varying hues lived and interacted. In my own family, three of my uncles were involved in The Nation of Islam. Two of these were light completed with straight hair and one darker completed with nappy hair. Many of the activists that identified completely with the Black community had lighter skin. Adam Clayton Powell was far more militant than Martin Luther King and even referred to Dr. King as an Uncle Tom. Malcolm X himself was of mixed racial ancestry. I am fair and my brother is dark and we share the same ancestry. I personally abhor the reverse colorism of late where Zoe Saldana seen as Nina Simone in your presentation was pilloried for her. It does seem OK to not have a lighter-skinned Black actor portray Thurgood Marshall. Get over yourself as Black women of all hue are being celebrated in fashion and film these days. they are ALL beautiful. This is from a seventy-year-old grandma before you decide to be disrespectful."

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108. AE3007
"With all due respect, “respect” is earned, not automatic. Phrases like “get over yourself “ are highly dismissive of the collective experience of most dark skin peoples. And Zoe apparently realized albeit late what she chose to do was simply put, wrong, and attempted an apology, of sorts."

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109. Baheeja Williams
"My grandfather was Blue vein passed for White during the Depression

But he was Cree Native American changed the name to be accepted as an African American they had more rights

They were cotillion folks but my Mum was dark and could not attend."

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110. Rebecca Augustine
"As my grand-dad once opined, "You haven't seen prejudice until you've seen it among [blacks] of differing skin tones!" (Back in the 1950s, polite Caucasians said "Negroes" at the time.)"

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111. tafi mutekwe
"Caste system in the black community."

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112.Abena Williams
"The writer is referring to the darker skinned blacks as full blooded Ethiopians. Around that time “Ethiopian” was used almost synonymously with “African” "

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113. originalprinceeq
"Now it's the exact opposite. Have you been to Atlanta? Dark skin gets together to specifically hate on light skin ... it's never ending ..."

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114.  Aiai Monkey
"Colorism is in itself rooted in racism and plantation practices of the old south. Many "light skinned" blacks, especially in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were mixed race with a white father or grandfather. The politics are mind numbing"

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115. Beverly Hintzen
"Colorism was one of the issues in the Rawanda genocide in 1994. Colorism is not only an African American problem."
-snip-
"Rawanda" is a typo for the name of the East African nation of Rwanda.

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116. victor vazquez
"White America also try to do similar thing a century ago in Puerto Rico. During WW1 they separated Puerto Ricans bye color. They also attempted to do a population census bye color in P.R. in the early 1900s. They introduce as a mandate sterilization to woman garment workers in the late 50s to early 60s and made it a priority for dark skin  Puerto Rican woman. We didnt fall for the Yankee trap. We are not a color we are Puerto Ricans."

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117.  Juan Jones
"If only you knew that still goes on today as quite as it's kept. Back in the day we would call them passe pour blanc or short pass'er blanc, oh and they'd get mad, because they knew we knew they were black. Till this day you could lose your life trying to marry a light skin person in Louisiana and you darker than a paper bag, or they will shun you. frfr."

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118. Tee Willi
"First I'd ever heard of the Blue Vein society. But I had heard "light, bright, darn near white" black folks referred by the old folks as blue bloods. Colorism is truly a sick, sick, SICK mental disorder. Please do the video on pre-slavery colorism, as well as one on the effects of colonial emperialism throughout the diaspora (including Africa) as it relates to colorism."

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119. Gordon Franklin Terry, Sr. M.Ed.
"My grandma would pass the paperbag test and help her darker sisters into her clubs. The links"

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120. The Al Show
"Notes on the video:

1) Biracial and mixed race people prior to the Civil War had their own communities and organizations in places like Charleston, SC and New Orleans, LA. This changed with the Plessy V Ferguson SCOTUS decision. Likely the founding of BVS came as part of the effort to retain mixed race organizations but within black communities because of changes in the law and encroaching segregation.

2)  The Arizona Republican item shows you how blunt , matter of fact and in your face race and racial matters could be decades ago.  The fact it called for members of   "European blood"  tells you all you need to know in that aspect.

3) I never knew much of anything about the Blue Vein Society but that last item makes one think they tried to intimidate others. Quite disturbing

4) Im.biracial and its interesting how some of the mixed race people in these photos look."
-snip-
Plessy was a light skin Creole of Color. 

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121. Aimee-Lynn Donovan
"Yes my grandmother passed for white for employment , but never shunned brown or black. My grandfather was very dark."

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122. Sarah Bewley
"I guess the Morial family of Louisiana were "Blue Veins", I have family members in my family that are blue veins from the State of Tennessee, yet my father is a tan brown and my Mom is a "Blue Vein"."

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123. SagesseNoir
"I wonder how these blue veins would react to family like mine: Dark skin dad,  light mother (some called her red   bone), with light daughter and dark son. And a lot of my family from the Carolinas are like this...some as light as Halle or Barack, some as dark as Michelle Obama or Denzel."

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124.  LoveWorkProject
"I knew about this light, bright, damn near white hierarchy, but I didn't know about the death threats, the blocking of employment, etc.  It's interesting however that they would label as "superior" their own oppressors; which, as we know, is a sign of serious self-hatred.  But thanks a bunch for this.  I'd like to see more of these "extra" pieces of history that remain obscure, especially since you do such a marvelous job of integrating the still-life pictures which underscore the point you are making.  Thanks again.  Much love"

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125. Brown Bagz
"Yes I was in subjected to the paper and test when I tried to join Jack & Jill"

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126. Ken_yatta
"In Guyana it’s the Indians and lighter skinned individuals that get those jobs. You forgot to mention the light and mixed woman who always win the beauty pageants."

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127. Lawrence Phelps
"Never heard of the brown bag test or the Blue Vein Society but here in Maryland there was a close knit group called Proctors who were similar to Blue Vein.  Light skinned and intermarried. When I got my first interview for the US Government,  the Manager was a very nice woman who was light skinned.  She hired me.  A few of the blacks called her an Oreo that startled me."

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128.  Theresa Bullock
"I’m glad you published this. It’s time we tackle this in our OWN community because this is a situation that was bought about by US. To whites we all were inferior, that’s why they bought the 1 drop rule out. They didn’t care about how white you looked. So, we as a people perpetualed  this sin among ourselves, so it’s time we address it. Even our entertainers and  sports figures are highly involved when you hear them always talking about their preferences. Where did this can of self hate come from? No, not the white man, it started in our own bullying and inferiority complexes right in our OWN neighborhoods and in the distinctions made in our own families. We are a beautiful people made up of so many color spectrums of dark browns to yellow tones. Let’s love and honor that and stop the divisions among us so that we can elevate as a people."

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129.Keyna McQueen
"Blue veins means you can see their veins through their skin..simple and dumb but true"

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130. Maggs W
"Growing up in the UK as a dark skinned black woman of West Indian parentage, I can assure you, dark skin 'colorism' is alive and well. I believe I experienced more of this from my black kin-folk than the white man."

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2023

131. Abraham Isaac Mucius III
"So is preferring dark skin a form of colorism?

There are still some families in the D.C. area and of course New Orleans that actively work to maintain their light complexion. Children are told not to marry anyone with brown or dark brown skin. Colorism is definitely still a problem."

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132. Hannah landfair
"When I used to live in Alabama, the kids used to pick with me because I am lightskin I wanted to be dark skinned so bad."

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133. Tiffany Baldwin80
"Thank you for this history I always thought the brown paper bag test came from somebody white I feel away that our own people did this and it created this division which is still going on today I am a dark woman with a light-skinned daughter who definitely pass the brown paper bag test"

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