Edited by Azizi Powell
This is Part I of a two part pancocojams series on the question "Where my people at?" and its variant forms such as "Where my Nigerians [or another nation's population etc.] at?"
This post presents some general information about and meanings for the question "Where my people at?" and the earlier (?) idiom "Where it's at"?
This post also showcases a YouTube sound file for Chris Kenner's 1961 R&B song "I Like It Like That" which includes the phrase "where it's at". This post also showcase two video examples that include the lyrics "Where my people at?"
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2019/10/examples-of-where-my-people-at-from-two.html for Part II of this pancocojams series. Part II of this pancocojams series presents examples of variant forms of the question "Where my people at?" and from two discussion threads for Nigerian singer Yemi Alade.
I'm particularly interested in examples from online commenters who don't appear to be from (or in) the United States.
The content of this post is presented for cultural and linguistic purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post and thanks to the publishers of the embedded YouTube videos.
****
GENERAL COMMENTS ABOUT THE QUESTION "WHERE MY PEOPLE AT?"
From https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/where-are-you-at?page=2
..."according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage, it was... in 1859, that “where at” was first noted in a Dictionary of Americanisms. They agree that “where at” is almost never used in formal writing, and attribute its growth in popularity in the 1960s to the idiom “where it’s at” "...
-snip-
This article indicates that "Where my people at?" means the same thing as "Where are my people?"
While that's correct, "Where my people at?" isn't only asked (or may not even be asked) to find out where someone's "people" are located at that given point in time.
For instance, in discussion threads for certain YouTube music videos, "Where my people at?" (or more often) "Where my [people from a particular nation, region, etc.] at?" (such as "Where my Nigerians at?") serves as a call, command, or request for people from that nation to "sign in" to that discussion thread in order to register their presence. In signing in the commenters have represented their nation [or ethnic group, or region etc. and have indicated their knowledge and approval of that particular song. Examples of this type of "Where my people at?" comments and responses are found in Part II of this pancocojams series.
Other variants of "Where my people at?" such as "Where are the dark skinned girls?" are also included in Part II of this pancocojams series.
****
WHAT "WHERE IT'S AT" MEANS
The idiom "Where it's at" doesn't mean the same thing as "Where my people at?".
Here's some information about the idiom "Where it's at?":
Excerpt #1:
From https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/where+it%27s+at
"where it's at
1. The place where things are most exciting, active, or lively.
I've traveled all over the world, and, if you're looking for a party, Ibiza is definitely where it's at.
For the last few decades, Austin has been where it's at for the independent music scene in the southern United States.
2. The place, field, industry, etc., where there is the most activity and opportunity.
For people who want to produce online content, streaming services are where it's at right now.
If you're looking for the most lucrative and plentiful job opportunities, computer programming is where it's at.
3. That which is currently very fashionable, trendy, or popular.
Big, broad suits are so last-century—well fitted trousers, jackets, and shirts are where it's at right now."...
Excerpt #2:
From https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/19/where-its-at/
"where it’s at
This slang expression gained widespread currency in the sixties as a hip way of stating that the speaker understood the essential truth of a situation: “I know where it’s at.” Or more commonly: “You don’t know where it’s at.” It is still heard from time to time with that meaning, but the user risks being labeled as a quaint old Boomer. However, standard usage never accepted the literal sense of the phrase. Don’t say, “I put my purse down and now I don’t know where it’s at” unless you want to be regarded as uneducated. “Where it is” will do fine; the “at” is redundant."
****
PANCOCOJAMS EDITOR'S NOTE:
The ending word "at" for the "Where my people at" sentence can be purposeful used "incorrect" English".
The "on purpose" use of what White mainstream societies negatively called and still call "bad English" is actually an example of knowingly code switching from standard ("correct") English to "street" English, i.e. a referent for African American Vernacular English. That way of talking is considered to be more hip; more "for real", and authentic than proper (correct, standard) English. I refer to the use of this type of Black talk online as "putting on the Black".
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2012/03/puttin-on-black-online-black-talk-code.html fr a March 10, 2012 pancocojams post on this subject entitled "Puttin On The Black - Online Black Talk & Code Switching".
****
HOW "WHERE IT'S AT" BECAME POPULAR IN THE 1960s
The saying "Where it's at" was popularized by the 1961 R&B song "I Like It Like That" by African American performing artist Chris Kenner
Here's an article about that song:
From https://www.dailydoowop.com/chris-kenner-i-like-it-like-that/ "Chris Kenner I Like it Like That" Published by Jane Minogue at March 8, 2018
"Ah, the sounds from New Orleans. The song, which was written by Chris Kenner and Allen Toussaint, went to #2 on the Billboard Hot 100 and #2 on the R&B Singles Chart in 1961. “I Like it Like That” sold more than one million copies and received an RIAA gold record. There were covers, among others, by The Dave Clark Five, The Nashville Teens, The Kingsmen, Brinsley Schwartz, and Loggins and Messina. The song is on the soundtrack to the 1987 Vietnam War film Full Metal Jacket.
Chris Kenner was also known for his song “Land of a Thousand Dances,’ which he recorded in 1963. It was covered notably by Wilson Pickett as well as Danny & the Memories, Thee Midniters, Cannibal and the Headhunters, and Ted Nugent.
Here are the lyrics to “I Like it Like That” by Chris Kenner:
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
The name of the place is I like it like that
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
The name of the place I like it like that
They got a little place a-down the track
The name of the place is I like it like that
Now you take Sally and I’ll take Sue
And we’re gonna rock away all of our blues
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
The name of the place is I like it like that
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
I will show you (come on let me show you where it’s at)
The name of the place I like it like that
The last time I was down there I lost my shoes
They had some cat shoutin’ the blues
The people was yellin’ and shoutin’ for more
And all they kept sayin’ was-a “go man, go”
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
I said the name of the place is like it like that
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
Come on (come on let me show you where it’s at)
The name of the place is I like it like that"...
****
HOW "WHERE MY PEOPLE AT?" BECAME WIDELY KNOWN BEGINNING IN 2013- ROXXY ANDREWS ON RU PAUL'S DRAG RACE (American Television Series, Season 5 (2013)
INFORMATION ABOUT RU PAUL'S DRAG RACE
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race
"RuPaul's Drag Race is an American reality competition television series produced by World of Wonder for Logo TV, WOW Presents Plus, and, beginning with the ninth season VH1. The show documents RuPaul in the search for "America's next drag superstar."[1] RuPaul plays the role of host, mentor, and head judge for this series, as contestants are given different challenges each week. RuPaul's Drag Race employs a panel of judges, including RuPaul, Michelle Visage, Santino Rice, and a host of other guest judges, who critique contestants' progress throughout the competition. The title of the show is a play on drag queen and drag racing, and the title sequence and song "Drag Race" both have a drag-racing theme."...
****
SHOWCASE VIDEO
Where my people at? Roxxxy Andrews - Can I get an Amen
Venis Mirage, Published on Jan 22, 2015
WHERE MY PEOPLE AT?
-snip-
As part of a challenge in an episode of season #5 [2013], Roxxy Andrews improvised the line "Where my people at?" as part of a refrain for the song "Can I Get An Amen?" The line "Where my people at" (given with an exclamation point and not a question mark) is listed as one of Roxxy Andrews memorable quotes from Season 5 in this online page about that drag queen https://rupaulsdragrace.fandom.com/wiki/Roxxxy_Andrews.
The saying "Where my people at?" was later included in the final recording of that song that Ru Paul sung along with Roxxy, and some other contestants. Click https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSaJkO_2CNA for that music video.
****
AN EXAMPLE OF VARIANT FORMS OF "WHERE MY PEOPLE AT?" IN A GOSPEL SONG SUNG IN XHOSA PERFORMED BY THE SOUTH AFRICAN GOSPEL CHOIR JOYOUS CELEBRATION
Joyous Celebration - Ngiphete' Ungqo
joyousVEVO, Oct 19, 2015
-snip-
Song: Ngiphete Ungqo
Artist: Joyous Celebration
Album: Joyous Celebration 16 [2012]
-snip-
English translation:
I'm untouchable
I'm unaffected
I'm not wandering
I'm not hurting
(Yes I'm unshakable, I've got the best of gospel)
I'm untouchable
I'm a holy girl/lady
No I'm untouchable
I'm a lady/girl of gospel
Even if you can give me money
A car, cellphone and all of that
I'm untouchable
I'm a lady/girl of gospel
Where my girl's at?
I'm not wandering
I'm a holy woman/mother
I'm not wandering
I'm a woman/mother of gospel
When times are hard
I look upon Christ
I'm not wandering, no
I'm not wandering
I'm not wandering
Where my mothers at?
The man says I'm unaffected
I'm a holy man
I'm unaffected
I'm a man of gospel
Even if you show me your cleavage
Mini-skirt, hairpieces and all that
I'm not affected
I'm a man of the gospel
Where the man at?
I'm unshakable
I'm a holy father
I'm unshakable
I'm a father of gospel
I sleep at home, I eat at home
I get everything at home
I'm a father, I'm a father of gospel
Where my fathers at?
We have the best, we have the best
We have the best, we have the best
We have the best, we have the best
Of gospel
I'm not hurting
I've got the best of gospel
No I'm not hurting
I've got the best of gospel
posted in that discussion thread by Moriti Molapo (2016)
Italics are added to highlight the "Where my people at?" lyrics.
In this song the "where my [noun] at?" question isn't asked to find out where the people in that category are (their location.) Instead, that question "Where my mother/woman" at?" etc. is asked to provide an opportunity for women of the gospel to publicly affirm their status of being "of the gospel". In the United States, people would say that this is a "call" for people to enthusiastically "respond" that they are born again/saved.
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor's Note:
I happened upon this South African Gospel song by "surfing YouTube" for South African Gospel songs, and particularly songs by Joyous Celebration whose videos I usually love. I also love the fact that commenters in those videos' discussion threads usually respond multiple times to requests for the original lyrics for these songs and their English translation.
When I read the English translation for this song, I was surprised to see examples of "Where my people at?" questions. Given that this song was performed in 2012, the fact that this South African Gospel song included those questions had nothing what so ever to do with a somewhat obscure American television series about drag queens.
I wonder how common "Where my people at?" questions are in South Africa and in other African nations. Also, are "Where my people at?" questions common in the Caribbean and in other parts of the Black African Diaspora?
****
This concludes Part I of this two Part series.
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
Showing posts with label Ru Paul's Drag Race. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Ru Paul's Drag Race. Show all posts
Tuesday, October 15, 2019
Wednesday, March 30, 2016
White People With Dreadlocks (With Special Attention to Ru-Paul Drag Race Contestant Thorgy Thor)
Edited by Azizi Powell
This is Part II of a two part pancocojams series on dreadlocks (hairstyles).
Part II provides excerpts of selected online articles and comments about White people who wear their hair in dreadlocks with special attention to comments about Thorgy Thor, a White contestant on Ru Paul's Drag Race, Season 8.
A video of Thorgy Thor with Bob the Drag Queen (a Black Season 8 contestant) is also included in this post.
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2016/03/definitions-selected-online-article.html Part I of this pancocojams series. Part I provides two definitions and excerpts from selected online articles about the hairstyles that are now widely known as "dreadlocks" ("dreads", "locs").
Also, click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2016/03/traditional-black-african-hairstyles.html for comments related to the subject of this post.
The content of this post is presented for socio-cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post. Thanks also to the publishers of the video that is embedded in this post and thanks to Thorgy Thor and Bob the Drag Queen who are featured in that video.
****
SELECTED EXCERPTS
These article excerpts are presented in no particular order. I've numbered them for referencing purposes only.
EXCERPT #1:
From http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/06/dreadlocks_should_white_people_have_them.html [page 1 of a 3 page article]
Blacks Get Weave; Can Whites Get Locks?
Race Manners: You can, but it's not the same. Don't expect to enjoy the style without the scrutiny.
BY: JENÉE DESMOND-HARRIS, Posted: June 19 2013
[Question]
"I'm an African-American woman. My good friend, who is a white male, very progressive and pretty much a hippie, is thinking about getting dreadlocks. He's been asking me for my opinion about it and whether it would be offensive to black people, and I'm not sure. I don't know if it's fair to say, 'Don't try to make your hair look like the hair of someone of another race,' when we all know that a lot of black women who have failed to embrace their natural hair texture have weaves that imitate European hair. In that sense, I somewhat think we as Americans are a hair and style melting pot now. So I don't want to apply a double standard. Still, I'm aware that a lot of black people really hate when white people have locks, and I'd hate to set him up for criticism or for people to judge or dislike him for this choice. I know this is complicated and wonder how it would be best to advise my friend." --"Dreading" Your Response
[Response]
...When it comes to white people wearing dreadlocks, which are associated in the public mind with Rastafarians specifically, and black people more generally (although they've apparently been embraced by a variety of cultures just about forever), the public is going to read the choice in ways that go way beyond personal aesthetics...
It goes without saying that in the best-possible world, everyone would get to know your friend as an individual rather than making assumptions about him based on his appearance.
But, as these reactions demonstrate -- and as I'm sure you already know -- we don't live in that world.
As [Gene] Demby [of NPR's Code Switch blog on race, ethnicity and culture] put it, your buddy is going to have to accept that if he goes forward with the locks, he'll be "actively 'raceing' himself."
Here's what I take that to mean. His hair is going to scream "black," which is going to serve to emphasize his whiteness -- the whiteness that, perhaps, people previously just saw as neutral, or didn't consciously register. Once race is in the front of everyone's consciousness, all sorts of assumptions about his motivations and inclinations -- fair and unfair, reality-based and not, about his hair and his overall worldview -- will follow. Quickly.
Which is, well, a lot like what it's like to be a person of color.
So I think the most supportive thing you can do is to warn him about this burden. As a black woman, you know a little something about it (except that, of course, being seen through the lens of race first isn't a choice for you).
Talk to him about what it's like to be the involuntary recipient of everyone's racial baggage as you're just trying to move through the world.
By all means, tell him you'll personally support whatever choice he makes about his hair. Hell, get him some coconut oil for his scalp and a cowrie shell or two to stick on the ends. But you'll do him a disservice if you let him believe that he can borrow a traditionally black look, keep the style and be excused from the scrutiny."
****
EXCERPT #2
From http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/white-feminist-with-dreadlocks/
"This White Feminist Loved Her Dreadlocks – Here’s Why She Cut Them Off"
August 2, 2015 by Annah Anti-Palindrome
"What It Was Like Being A White Girl with Dreadlocks
In my late teens…I let my leg and armpit hair grow long, and I let the hair on my head spiral into a nest of cords, matts, and tangles (a hairdo I would later ignorantly and appropriatively refer to as dreadlocks).
...We idolized musicians like The Slits, Babes in Toyland, 7 Year Bitch, Ani Difranco, L7, and Switchblade Symphony – all feminists who wrote songs about smashing mainstream beauty standards – all bands featuring white women who wore their hair in dreadlocks at some point or another during their musical careers.
In navigating through a predominantly white, feminist punk subculture, I never gave a second thought to whether wearing my hair in dreadlocks was offensive — at least to any one other than to The Patriarchy.
Having dreadlocks was part of what allowed me to stop obsessing over my appearance.*
...Despite my rebellious appearance, I enjoyed a level of tolerance from authority figures and society at large that can only be attributed to my whiteness.
Everything changed when I stopped traveling, started investing in local activist projects, and began building a broader, more multiracial community.
For the first time, my peers had lots of questions and critiques about my choice to wear dreadlocks.
The responses other activists had to my hair ranged from mild irritation to downright anger.
People were constantly making comments under their breath when they passed me about “cultural appropriation” – I had no idea what that meant.
Some friends eventually suggested some readings and resources that would help me understand.
I read them and learned more about the history and symbolism of dreadlocks in the US in context to black folk’s resistance movements against white supremacy. I learned that black folks in the US with dreadlocks are not seen as “quirky” or “alternative,” but as “dangerous” and “militant”...
The Harmful Messages I Was Sending to the World as a White Woman with Dreadlocks
It finally became clear to me that by wearing my hair in dreadlocks as a white person, the nonverbal statements I was making to folks of color were:
“Look! I can reject all of mainstream society’s expectations of me and still be treated with more respect than you!”
“Your legacies of cultural resistance are so irrelevant that they’ve become nothing more than a fashion accessory to help me evade the expectations of white womanhood!”
“I don’t care that my presence illicitness discomfort and sometimes communicates what is seen as blatant disrespect!”
“I don’t care that my hairstyle symbolizes the kind of white entitlement that has resulted in centuries worth of global, colonial violence.”
Etcetera.
I’m pretty embarrassed to say so… but even after this new stage of awareness I stiiiiillllll had a super hard time letting them go...
[The section of this post "Some examples of my last stitch arguments" [with her friends responses] isn't included in this excerpt for fair use concerns [although I've already used more of that post than fair use allows. My bad.]
The Haircut
I finally cut them off – and when I did, I felt (literally and figuratively) a dozen pounds lighter.
Although I am still pretty “alternative” looking, I’ve learned to stand up against systems of oppression by doing the actual footwork in my daily life. I no longer naively expect my physical appearance (on its own) to do that work for me.
Cutting off my dreadlocks was a form of accountability – an acknowledgment of the ways in which I’ve benefited (and continue to benefit) from legacies of extreme, racialized violence.
Cutting off my dreadlocks didn’t make me an instantly “good white person” or even a trustworthy ally, but it sure as hell dismantled some of the barriers that stood in the way of cultivating deep, meaningful relationships based on mutual respect, trust and solidarity.
As feminists, we do need to continue working hard to dismantle society’s oppressive messages about femininity, but we also need to be thinking about the intersections of race, class, and gender, the ways some of us benefit from the system in which we live, and how we can empower and liberate ourselves without contributing to the oppression of someone else."
-snip-
*The bold fonts and italics were used in the original article.
I strongly recommend reading that entire post.
That post recommended reading this article about cultural appropriation of Native American culture: http://nativeappropriations.com/2014/03/dear-christina-fallin.html
****
EXCERPT #3: Bus Buddies: Bob The Drag Queen & Thorgy Thor | RuPaul's Drag Race Season 8 | Logo
Logo TV, Published on Mar 7, 2016
Bob The Drag Queen & Thorgy Thor truth talk about being drag queens and the impact RuPaul's Drag Race has had in their lives. Catch all new episodes of RuPaul's Drag Race Mondays at 9/8c on Logo.
SUBSCRIBE: http://logo.to/ZirLXq
-snip-
Thorgy Thor is a White contestant on that show who wears his hair in dreadlocks.
Selected comments from this video's discussion thread:
These comments are given in chronological order, except for responses. However, they may not be in consecutive order (since some comments may not be included in this excerpt). I've added numbers for referencing purposes only.
All these comments are from March 2016
1. Saturn Inn
"white boy's dreadlocks ewwwww"
**
Reply
2. Brayden Dawe
"Spotted the Vegan."
**
Reply
3. Saturn Inn
"lmaaaaaaaaao"
**
Reply
4. Sarah M
"lmao thats whats keepin me from liking thorgy tbh"
**
Reply
5. calbum08
"+Sarah M how very sad"
**
Reply
6. edwinelmejor08
"+Sarah M how stupid, I'm black and I don't mind."
**
Reply
7. KENNECTED
"+Saturn Inn That was shade for no reason! What does his ethnicity have to do with his hair style? Gays want acceptance and this is a prime example of the rampant racism and elitism in OUR community!"
**
Reply
8. Will Soule
"+KENNECTED Yup. Amazing how those people who have felt judgement and condemnation suddenly get addicted to inflicting that on other people. Also Thorgy's dreads are beautiful. I've seen shi&&y* dreads in my life and those are dreads that have been maintained for YEARS."
-snip-
That word is fully spelled out in this comment.
**
Reply
9. clo09d
"+KENNECTED racism is not "white boys in dreads ew" it's "I prefer white guys; no blacks, Latinos, Asians" ... Don't compare this silly comment with actual racism and lack of acceptance in the gay community."
**
Reply
10. clo09d
"+KENNECTED Also white people cannot experience racism, so try again."
**
Reply
11. KENNECTED
"+clo09d NOOOO. You're wrong. White people can experience racism. Not sure what world you're living in. The above is a racist comment. And lets be clear, I'm a PROUD MAN OF COLOR."
**
Reply
12. Brayden Dawe
"+clo09d White people CAN in fact experience racism. BUT CANNOT have their rights taken away form them. Obviously they're higher on the scale of other colours. But racism is specifically hating another race for whatever reason it may be. I have a white and black family, so dont try to tell me other wise. If a white person and a black person walk into a store and a asian man was running it. And he denied both of them service due to their colour, then it's racist. White, Black, Asian, Muslim, Indian ETC. it's racist. You may hate white people but that doesn't mean you're not racist."
**
Reply
13. carpethatdiem
"+Brayden Dawe Racism refers to a system of power that specifically disenfranchises a certain ethnicity or "race" of people. Someone who is racist is a beneficiary of that system and perpetuates it. What you're describing is prejudice or discrimination, which white people can experience. But they can never experience racism, at least in modern America."
**
Reply
14. chicken nugget
"wow you are all so judgemental smh"
**
Reply
15. Quin On A Cone
"+KENNECTED agreed."
**
Reply
16. Brayden Dawe
"+carpethatdiem Anyone can experience racism. If you HATE A RACE for whatever reason, YOU. ARE.RACIST. Can't oppress white peopke but you can be racist towards them. Sorry that you dont like white people and you're being told the truth."
**
Reply
17. KENNECTED
"Too much time has been spent on the dreads and taken away discussion about Thorgy and BOB interaction."
**
Reply
18. IAgreeToTheseTerms
"+Saturn Inn FUN FACT! Thorgy is Norweigan, and the Norweigan culture has embraced dreads for a long period of time. It's a cultural thing, but he's not being offensive."
**
Reply
19. chicken nugget
"even if he wasn't from there he can wear what he wants lol people are just too sensitive"
**
Reply
20. Meadow Kitten
"Thorgys dreads are the cutest thing. He looks like that art teacher or the librarian that's crazy and fun and I lovvvve him"
**
Reply
21. Quin On A Cone
"+Meadow Kitten I agree!"
**
Reply
22. Sarah Merino
"R U KIDDING thorgy to me is the most interesting guy out of drag to look at. i love it wow"
**
Reply
23. no name
"black girls with straight hair .... ewwww"
**
Reply
24. clo09d
"+no namer there are black people naturally born with straight hair, straight hair is not a white feature. Try again Becky!"
-snip-
"Becky" is a so-called "White name" that is used to put down White females (like the older referent "Miss Ann".)
**
Reply
25. KENNECTED
"Why don't we just move on??"
**
Reply
26. no name
"You are complety right...although majority of black people do not have straight hair and they wear wigs and excentsions. I do not care about it. I was just trying to make a point that judging someone else because of hair is stupid. As long as someone is a good person people should not care about the way they look etc."
**
Reply
27. Sarah Merino
"+no name THORGY IS BEAUTIFUL"
**
Reply
28. no name
"+Sarah Merino I know. I find him really attractive too."
**
Reply
29. Sarah Merino
"+no name yeahh"
**
Reply
30. chicken nugget
"+clo09d um that's not true"
**
Reply
31. clo09d
"+no name right, and my issue is less with Thorgy, and more with society . Why is it when Zendaya, a black woman, wore dreads people said she looked ugly and said she looked like she smelled like weed and oil. Yet people praise white people who wear dread as looking cool, hip, trendy, and unique. This isn't Thorgy's fault of course, but many black people are trying to shine light on the issue because there is a deeper background of racism going on there."
**
Reply
32. clo09d
"+no name also ask your self why do so many black women wear wigs and extensions??? Because society has deemed their natural hair not beautiful. So of course black people are going to want straight hair, to fit some part of the status quo. I think dreads, curly/poofy hair, is beautiful and no one should change who they are. However that's idealistic thinking and having open discourse on WHY things are the way they are is always better than saying "Everyone love each other, we're all humans"."
**
Reply
33. no name
"+clo09d You just answered yourself. Not everyone likes white guys wearing dreads... not everyone likes black girls wearing dreads...not everyone likes white woman wearing straight hair etc etc. Everyone likes different things. I do not get why people can just accept that everyone is different and move on."
..... [other comments in this discussion not included]
Reply
34. clo09d
"+no name WOW it literally all went over your head....The reasons people don't like white guys in dreads, ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than why people don't like black women in them. Those reasons are important because the reasons people don't like black women's hair are usually ingrained in racism. I'm so tired of having this same conversation over and over, and if I'm tired I can't imagine how black people must feel."
**
Reply
35. sarah merino
"+clo09d BOY WHAT ARE U SAYING I don't recall anyone hating on Zendaya having dreads!!! She was praised like a queen what do you mean! If a white person or a black person wants to get dreads or any type of hair style then f&&&ing* allow them to!! WHY SO MUCH ARGUEING DAMN"
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.
**
Reply
36. Seventh Poet
"+sarah merino it was specific people and those that supported them. The outpouring of support for Zendaya happened after the inappropriate comments
http://www.refinery29.com/2015/02/82786/zendaya-giuliana-rancic-dreadlock-comment
Giuliana did appologize. The video apology was better received"
**
Reply
37. sarah merino
"+Seventh Poet honestly I believe that we should all just love and accept each other already damnnnn, its 2016 what is up with this world smh!!"
**
Reply
38. Seventh Poet
"+sarah merino I feel similarly. Do more good than harm is a rule that I wish we all could live by :)"
**
Reply
39. Sarah Merino
"+Seventh Poet exactly!!!!"
**
Reply
40. no name
"+clo09d Man you are just angry person. Move on. damnnn"
**
Reply
41. no name
"+clo09d I AM BLACK...so please stop now."
**
Reply
42. clo09d
"+no name Explaining the discourse racism = Angry Person?? GOODBYE."
[end of that exchange as of March 29, 2016]
**
43. Zania “MakeupByZania” Sydnor
"I love Thorgy's dreads!!"
**
Reply
44. Yuki Rabbit
"+Zania “MakeupByZania” Sydnor Me too! There's something very 80's-90's nostalgic about Thorgy's boy look."
[end of that exchange as of March 29, 2016]
**
45. Jon Doemans
"Is thorgy part black?"
**
Reply
46. Victor Mendoza
"Does he look black?"
**
Reply
47. Jon Doemans
"Did you miss where I wrote 'PART BLACK,' by which I mean NOT ENTIRELY BLACK? You can't go on phenotype alone, so I'm just wondering how she identifies. Cu&t"*
[end of that exchange to date]
*That pejorative referent was completely spelled out in that comment.
**
48. jandre
"I love the 90's style & Thorgy pleases me, since he reminds me of a long lost Milli Vanilli group member."
-snip-
Milli Vanilli were a Black German R&B duo (late 1980s, early 1990s). Both of these men wore their hair in dreadlocks.
**
49.strawberryvines
"those dreadsss!!! lol like this one."
-snip-
The screen photo of this commenter is a black women with dreads.
****
EXCERPT #4:
From https://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace/comments/4cekpq/an_open_letter_to_kat_blaque_regarding_rupauls/
[Note: This discussion thread was posted in response to a Huffington Post article by Kat Blaque that indicated that Ru-Paul's Drag Race was anti-black". All of these comments are from March 29, 2016.]
qbertp
"As someone not from the US and very little related to racial problems of this kind, it's just so absurd to me.
I feel the same way .-. it's all so confusing, i'm not counting how many "latino" or "asian" or "black" queens are on the show... lots of queens had "bad edits" but i refuse to believe it's a racial thing, even because in season 7 ... I loved Kennedy °:°, she's funny, beautiful and talented, each time I re-watch the season I think she's one of my favourites (I was just a bit annoyed and surprised in the end when Ginger and Kennedy read the younger queens... but again °.° that's their personality, I guess)
you know what... I'm scared. You're all complaining about thorgy's dreads, "cultural appropriation" and stuff like that, are british people offended by Dela's Maggie Smith or Ginger's Adele? I mean i bet no russian is complaining about Katya pretending to be russian, and no asian is complaining about Trixie wearing a chinese Qipao awkwardly mixed with Japanese features, nor I'm complaining about Miss Fame's weird italian accent (I had a good laugh instead) or egyptians making pizza (I swear they're the best pizza makers in Rome °:°) - AW WAIT i read somewhere KimChi was offensive to Japanese people because she said she was like a walking ANIME and she's Corean o.o, guys that's crazy. Am I offended because every single character in an anime is actually japanese but it's portrayed as white with exaggerated white features? (If ever I'm concerned because Japanese people seem to underestimate their own beauty and culture O.o - and of course, it's weird they rarely diversify ethnicities)
I dunno, i wish there were more italian references in the show °:° mock an Opera! Sing some italian songs, make a fellini spoof i dunno X.X i'm confused, someone help me understand all this hatred ."
-snip-
This commenter refers to White contestants Dela, Ginger, Katya, Trixie, and Miss Fame, and Asian contestant KimChi- all of whom were on other Seasons of Ru Paul's Drag Race.
**
Vervaine,
"Thory's hair is a little different than putting on an accent because Black hair (in America at least) has been a huge problem for black people. Basically, black hair was/is deemed unattractive which is why relaxing (which is terrible for your hair), weaves, wigs, etc. are popular among black women. So when a white person takes a hairstyle traditionally associated with black hair, it is having your cake and eating it too. IE white hair is the apex, the ideal but if a white person wants to wear dreads then they're cool because it's so unique. Whereas afros and dreads are usually considered unprofessional hair styles even though black hair can be easily managed that way/does that naturally unlike white hair.
TL;DR: When black hair is deemed ugly/unprofessional and black people feel obligated to conform to white beauty standards both socially and professionally, it's not cute when a white person has "black" hair to be... edgy? Unique?"
**
Reply
qbertp
"thanks Vervaine, I have some more clues now, I didn't know "traditional black hair" was deemed unprofessional I guess the piece I was missing is that discrimination is still a topical issue in the U.S., in that case I understand you could feel in some way duped by a white guy wearing a tipically black hairdo.
however for the sake of conversation, following that logic LOADS of things we take as granted should be re-considered .-. I mean Drag itself consists of men dressing up as women, which applies perfectly to your example: women were mistreated, under payed, and often accused of dressing up too sexually, so men shouldn't dress up as women because it's dis-respectful? I mean it could be in a sense... but I believe we're over that..., at least on this sub... sigh. (Guys these issues are really tangled, I need some further study, in fact if you want to counter argument, please do, i'm sorry it looks like i'm pontificating but I just want to have a better picture, really).
I mean the languages we speak today are the unprofessional versions of the ancient ones, eventually borrowed by the same elite who initially despised them, because some clever guy once said "Latin is beautiful but what people speak is equally valuable" °.° And that was a relief not an offense.
It sounds a bit paradoxical to me because it looks like the solution to the problem would be... sharing your culture and allow it to become normal and beautiful at the eyes of the world. (Of course if you have dreads and you're a racist, you're an ass**le; just as much as if you're homophobic and you hate gay people, but you know...)
Between you and me, aesthetically I don't like Thorgy's dreads as much as i don't like Coco wearing blue contacts while not in drag, or a man wearing a skirt in everyday life (aesthetically, because i have a different taste) but I know i could change my mind and become accustomed to a new taste sooner or later, and even ... i dunno ... wear a skirt?
Still on the other hand black people with blue eyes are born every day and (I'm from southern Italy) I know Italians with hair thicker and curlier than most black people, who would likely develop dread naturally if they didn't comb, so what really defines tradition? What really define race, they're really vague and fleeting concepts, I mean history demonstrate they're bound to mix and change, so why should i stop progress °.°
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/black-white-twins-meet-sisters-5256945 Those two lovely girls are twin sisters, who's black and who's white? Does the ginger one feels white or the brunette one feels black, what does that even mean! °.° Shouldn't they feel...Irish? (I now I feel Italian, I would never think to label myself as white). Is the ginger one allowed to braid her hair? O.O So if "hair" is a symbol for discrimination, I just hope in the future the progress will continue to wipe every boundary out :p as it has always done, and that's why nowadays we can enjoy a show about men in drag and homosexuality as a normal thing
I grew up in a country which constantly laughs at its own stereotypes, and is ... PROUD of them. Stereotypes are a form of folk culture, and represent the easiest way to spot your flaws and your strenghts... i can't really explain myself It's a tricky and philosophical matter .-. I shan't really talk without further reasoning I'm sorry, however kudos to Naomi Daniels (Btw we have a great Donatella Versace impersonator here, she's crazy funny, i wish there was a subbed version of her sketch on youtube, it's like Donatella meets Deathbecomesher)"
-snip-
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2016/03/selected-comments-from-rebuttal-of-kat.html for more excerpts of this discussion, including responses to the comments about living in a country that is proud of its stereotypes.
****
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
This is Part II of a two part pancocojams series on dreadlocks (hairstyles).
Part II provides excerpts of selected online articles and comments about White people who wear their hair in dreadlocks with special attention to comments about Thorgy Thor, a White contestant on Ru Paul's Drag Race, Season 8.
A video of Thorgy Thor with Bob the Drag Queen (a Black Season 8 contestant) is also included in this post.
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2016/03/definitions-selected-online-article.html Part I of this pancocojams series. Part I provides two definitions and excerpts from selected online articles about the hairstyles that are now widely known as "dreadlocks" ("dreads", "locs").
Also, click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2016/03/traditional-black-african-hairstyles.html for comments related to the subject of this post.
The content of this post is presented for socio-cultural purposes.
All copyrights remain with their owners.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post. Thanks also to the publishers of the video that is embedded in this post and thanks to Thorgy Thor and Bob the Drag Queen who are featured in that video.
****
SELECTED EXCERPTS
These article excerpts are presented in no particular order. I've numbered them for referencing purposes only.
EXCERPT #1:
From http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/06/dreadlocks_should_white_people_have_them.html [page 1 of a 3 page article]
Blacks Get Weave; Can Whites Get Locks?
Race Manners: You can, but it's not the same. Don't expect to enjoy the style without the scrutiny.
BY: JENÉE DESMOND-HARRIS, Posted: June 19 2013
[Question]
"I'm an African-American woman. My good friend, who is a white male, very progressive and pretty much a hippie, is thinking about getting dreadlocks. He's been asking me for my opinion about it and whether it would be offensive to black people, and I'm not sure. I don't know if it's fair to say, 'Don't try to make your hair look like the hair of someone of another race,' when we all know that a lot of black women who have failed to embrace their natural hair texture have weaves that imitate European hair. In that sense, I somewhat think we as Americans are a hair and style melting pot now. So I don't want to apply a double standard. Still, I'm aware that a lot of black people really hate when white people have locks, and I'd hate to set him up for criticism or for people to judge or dislike him for this choice. I know this is complicated and wonder how it would be best to advise my friend." --"Dreading" Your Response
[Response]
...When it comes to white people wearing dreadlocks, which are associated in the public mind with Rastafarians specifically, and black people more generally (although they've apparently been embraced by a variety of cultures just about forever), the public is going to read the choice in ways that go way beyond personal aesthetics...
It goes without saying that in the best-possible world, everyone would get to know your friend as an individual rather than making assumptions about him based on his appearance.
But, as these reactions demonstrate -- and as I'm sure you already know -- we don't live in that world.
As [Gene] Demby [of NPR's Code Switch blog on race, ethnicity and culture] put it, your buddy is going to have to accept that if he goes forward with the locks, he'll be "actively 'raceing' himself."
Here's what I take that to mean. His hair is going to scream "black," which is going to serve to emphasize his whiteness -- the whiteness that, perhaps, people previously just saw as neutral, or didn't consciously register. Once race is in the front of everyone's consciousness, all sorts of assumptions about his motivations and inclinations -- fair and unfair, reality-based and not, about his hair and his overall worldview -- will follow. Quickly.
Which is, well, a lot like what it's like to be a person of color.
So I think the most supportive thing you can do is to warn him about this burden. As a black woman, you know a little something about it (except that, of course, being seen through the lens of race first isn't a choice for you).
Talk to him about what it's like to be the involuntary recipient of everyone's racial baggage as you're just trying to move through the world.
By all means, tell him you'll personally support whatever choice he makes about his hair. Hell, get him some coconut oil for his scalp and a cowrie shell or two to stick on the ends. But you'll do him a disservice if you let him believe that he can borrow a traditionally black look, keep the style and be excused from the scrutiny."
****
EXCERPT #2
From http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/white-feminist-with-dreadlocks/
"This White Feminist Loved Her Dreadlocks – Here’s Why She Cut Them Off"
August 2, 2015 by Annah Anti-Palindrome
"What It Was Like Being A White Girl with Dreadlocks
In my late teens…I let my leg and armpit hair grow long, and I let the hair on my head spiral into a nest of cords, matts, and tangles (a hairdo I would later ignorantly and appropriatively refer to as dreadlocks).
...We idolized musicians like The Slits, Babes in Toyland, 7 Year Bitch, Ani Difranco, L7, and Switchblade Symphony – all feminists who wrote songs about smashing mainstream beauty standards – all bands featuring white women who wore their hair in dreadlocks at some point or another during their musical careers.
In navigating through a predominantly white, feminist punk subculture, I never gave a second thought to whether wearing my hair in dreadlocks was offensive — at least to any one other than to The Patriarchy.
Having dreadlocks was part of what allowed me to stop obsessing over my appearance.*
...Despite my rebellious appearance, I enjoyed a level of tolerance from authority figures and society at large that can only be attributed to my whiteness.
Everything changed when I stopped traveling, started investing in local activist projects, and began building a broader, more multiracial community.
For the first time, my peers had lots of questions and critiques about my choice to wear dreadlocks.
The responses other activists had to my hair ranged from mild irritation to downright anger.
People were constantly making comments under their breath when they passed me about “cultural appropriation” – I had no idea what that meant.
Some friends eventually suggested some readings and resources that would help me understand.
I read them and learned more about the history and symbolism of dreadlocks in the US in context to black folk’s resistance movements against white supremacy. I learned that black folks in the US with dreadlocks are not seen as “quirky” or “alternative,” but as “dangerous” and “militant”...
The Harmful Messages I Was Sending to the World as a White Woman with Dreadlocks
It finally became clear to me that by wearing my hair in dreadlocks as a white person, the nonverbal statements I was making to folks of color were:
“Look! I can reject all of mainstream society’s expectations of me and still be treated with more respect than you!”
“Your legacies of cultural resistance are so irrelevant that they’ve become nothing more than a fashion accessory to help me evade the expectations of white womanhood!”
“I don’t care that my presence illicitness discomfort and sometimes communicates what is seen as blatant disrespect!”
“I don’t care that my hairstyle symbolizes the kind of white entitlement that has resulted in centuries worth of global, colonial violence.”
Etcetera.
I’m pretty embarrassed to say so… but even after this new stage of awareness I stiiiiillllll had a super hard time letting them go...
[The section of this post "Some examples of my last stitch arguments" [with her friends responses] isn't included in this excerpt for fair use concerns [although I've already used more of that post than fair use allows. My bad.]
The Haircut
I finally cut them off – and when I did, I felt (literally and figuratively) a dozen pounds lighter.
Although I am still pretty “alternative” looking, I’ve learned to stand up against systems of oppression by doing the actual footwork in my daily life. I no longer naively expect my physical appearance (on its own) to do that work for me.
Cutting off my dreadlocks was a form of accountability – an acknowledgment of the ways in which I’ve benefited (and continue to benefit) from legacies of extreme, racialized violence.
Cutting off my dreadlocks didn’t make me an instantly “good white person” or even a trustworthy ally, but it sure as hell dismantled some of the barriers that stood in the way of cultivating deep, meaningful relationships based on mutual respect, trust and solidarity.
As feminists, we do need to continue working hard to dismantle society’s oppressive messages about femininity, but we also need to be thinking about the intersections of race, class, and gender, the ways some of us benefit from the system in which we live, and how we can empower and liberate ourselves without contributing to the oppression of someone else."
-snip-
*The bold fonts and italics were used in the original article.
I strongly recommend reading that entire post.
That post recommended reading this article about cultural appropriation of Native American culture: http://nativeappropriations.com/2014/03/dear-christina-fallin.html
****
EXCERPT #3: Bus Buddies: Bob The Drag Queen & Thorgy Thor | RuPaul's Drag Race Season 8 | Logo
Logo TV, Published on Mar 7, 2016
Bob The Drag Queen & Thorgy Thor truth talk about being drag queens and the impact RuPaul's Drag Race has had in their lives. Catch all new episodes of RuPaul's Drag Race Mondays at 9/8c on Logo.
SUBSCRIBE: http://logo.to/ZirLXq
-snip-
Thorgy Thor is a White contestant on that show who wears his hair in dreadlocks.
Selected comments from this video's discussion thread:
These comments are given in chronological order, except for responses. However, they may not be in consecutive order (since some comments may not be included in this excerpt). I've added numbers for referencing purposes only.
All these comments are from March 2016
1. Saturn Inn
"white boy's dreadlocks ewwwww"
**
Reply
2. Brayden Dawe
"Spotted the Vegan."
**
Reply
3. Saturn Inn
"lmaaaaaaaaao"
**
Reply
4. Sarah M
"lmao thats whats keepin me from liking thorgy tbh"
**
Reply
5. calbum08
"+Sarah M how very sad"
**
Reply
6. edwinelmejor08
"+Sarah M how stupid, I'm black and I don't mind."
**
Reply
7. KENNECTED
"+Saturn Inn That was shade for no reason! What does his ethnicity have to do with his hair style? Gays want acceptance and this is a prime example of the rampant racism and elitism in OUR community!"
**
Reply
8. Will Soule
"+KENNECTED Yup. Amazing how those people who have felt judgement and condemnation suddenly get addicted to inflicting that on other people. Also Thorgy's dreads are beautiful. I've seen shi&&y* dreads in my life and those are dreads that have been maintained for YEARS."
-snip-
That word is fully spelled out in this comment.
**
Reply
9. clo09d
"+KENNECTED racism is not "white boys in dreads ew" it's "I prefer white guys; no blacks, Latinos, Asians" ... Don't compare this silly comment with actual racism and lack of acceptance in the gay community."
**
Reply
10. clo09d
"+KENNECTED Also white people cannot experience racism, so try again."
**
Reply
11. KENNECTED
"+clo09d NOOOO. You're wrong. White people can experience racism. Not sure what world you're living in. The above is a racist comment. And lets be clear, I'm a PROUD MAN OF COLOR."
**
Reply
12. Brayden Dawe
"+clo09d White people CAN in fact experience racism. BUT CANNOT have their rights taken away form them. Obviously they're higher on the scale of other colours. But racism is specifically hating another race for whatever reason it may be. I have a white and black family, so dont try to tell me other wise. If a white person and a black person walk into a store and a asian man was running it. And he denied both of them service due to their colour, then it's racist. White, Black, Asian, Muslim, Indian ETC. it's racist. You may hate white people but that doesn't mean you're not racist."
**
Reply
13. carpethatdiem
"+Brayden Dawe Racism refers to a system of power that specifically disenfranchises a certain ethnicity or "race" of people. Someone who is racist is a beneficiary of that system and perpetuates it. What you're describing is prejudice or discrimination, which white people can experience. But they can never experience racism, at least in modern America."
**
Reply
14. chicken nugget
"wow you are all so judgemental smh"
**
Reply
15. Quin On A Cone
"+KENNECTED agreed."
**
Reply
16. Brayden Dawe
"+carpethatdiem Anyone can experience racism. If you HATE A RACE for whatever reason, YOU. ARE.RACIST. Can't oppress white peopke but you can be racist towards them. Sorry that you dont like white people and you're being told the truth."
**
Reply
17. KENNECTED
"Too much time has been spent on the dreads and taken away discussion about Thorgy and BOB interaction."
**
Reply
18. IAgreeToTheseTerms
"+Saturn Inn FUN FACT! Thorgy is Norweigan, and the Norweigan culture has embraced dreads for a long period of time. It's a cultural thing, but he's not being offensive."
**
Reply
19. chicken nugget
"even if he wasn't from there he can wear what he wants lol people are just too sensitive"
**
Reply
20. Meadow Kitten
"Thorgys dreads are the cutest thing. He looks like that art teacher or the librarian that's crazy and fun and I lovvvve him"
**
Reply
21. Quin On A Cone
"+Meadow Kitten I agree!"
**
Reply
22. Sarah Merino
"R U KIDDING thorgy to me is the most interesting guy out of drag to look at. i love it wow"
**
Reply
23. no name
"black girls with straight hair .... ewwww"
**
Reply
24. clo09d
"+no namer there are black people naturally born with straight hair, straight hair is not a white feature. Try again Becky!"
-snip-
"Becky" is a so-called "White name" that is used to put down White females (like the older referent "Miss Ann".)
**
Reply
25. KENNECTED
"Why don't we just move on??"
**
Reply
26. no name
"You are complety right...although majority of black people do not have straight hair and they wear wigs and excentsions. I do not care about it. I was just trying to make a point that judging someone else because of hair is stupid. As long as someone is a good person people should not care about the way they look etc."
**
Reply
27. Sarah Merino
"+no name THORGY IS BEAUTIFUL"
**
Reply
28. no name
"+Sarah Merino I know. I find him really attractive too."
**
Reply
29. Sarah Merino
"+no name yeahh"
**
Reply
30. chicken nugget
"+clo09d um that's not true"
**
Reply
31. clo09d
"+no name right, and my issue is less with Thorgy, and more with society . Why is it when Zendaya, a black woman, wore dreads people said she looked ugly and said she looked like she smelled like weed and oil. Yet people praise white people who wear dread as looking cool, hip, trendy, and unique. This isn't Thorgy's fault of course, but many black people are trying to shine light on the issue because there is a deeper background of racism going on there."
**
Reply
32. clo09d
"+no name also ask your self why do so many black women wear wigs and extensions??? Because society has deemed their natural hair not beautiful. So of course black people are going to want straight hair, to fit some part of the status quo. I think dreads, curly/poofy hair, is beautiful and no one should change who they are. However that's idealistic thinking and having open discourse on WHY things are the way they are is always better than saying "Everyone love each other, we're all humans"."
**
Reply
33. no name
"+clo09d You just answered yourself. Not everyone likes white guys wearing dreads... not everyone likes black girls wearing dreads...not everyone likes white woman wearing straight hair etc etc. Everyone likes different things. I do not get why people can just accept that everyone is different and move on."
..... [other comments in this discussion not included]
Reply
34. clo09d
"+no name WOW it literally all went over your head....The reasons people don't like white guys in dreads, ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than why people don't like black women in them. Those reasons are important because the reasons people don't like black women's hair are usually ingrained in racism. I'm so tired of having this same conversation over and over, and if I'm tired I can't imagine how black people must feel."
**
Reply
35. sarah merino
"+clo09d BOY WHAT ARE U SAYING I don't recall anyone hating on Zendaya having dreads!!! She was praised like a queen what do you mean! If a white person or a black person wants to get dreads or any type of hair style then f&&&ing* allow them to!! WHY SO MUCH ARGUEING DAMN"
-snip-
*This word is fully spelled out in this comment.
**
Reply
36. Seventh Poet
"+sarah merino it was specific people and those that supported them. The outpouring of support for Zendaya happened after the inappropriate comments
http://www.refinery29.com/2015/02/82786/zendaya-giuliana-rancic-dreadlock-comment
Giuliana did appologize. The video apology was better received"
**
Reply
37. sarah merino
"+Seventh Poet honestly I believe that we should all just love and accept each other already damnnnn, its 2016 what is up with this world smh!!"
**
Reply
38. Seventh Poet
"+sarah merino I feel similarly. Do more good than harm is a rule that I wish we all could live by :)"
**
Reply
39. Sarah Merino
"+Seventh Poet exactly!!!!"
**
Reply
40. no name
"+clo09d Man you are just angry person. Move on. damnnn"
**
Reply
41. no name
"+clo09d I AM BLACK...so please stop now."
**
Reply
42. clo09d
"+no name Explaining the discourse racism = Angry Person?? GOODBYE."
[end of that exchange as of March 29, 2016]
**
43. Zania “MakeupByZania” Sydnor
"I love Thorgy's dreads!!"
**
Reply
44. Yuki Rabbit
"+Zania “MakeupByZania” Sydnor Me too! There's something very 80's-90's nostalgic about Thorgy's boy look."
[end of that exchange as of March 29, 2016]
**
45. Jon Doemans
"Is thorgy part black?"
**
Reply
46. Victor Mendoza
"Does he look black?"
**
Reply
47. Jon Doemans
"Did you miss where I wrote 'PART BLACK,' by which I mean NOT ENTIRELY BLACK? You can't go on phenotype alone, so I'm just wondering how she identifies. Cu&t"*
[end of that exchange to date]
*That pejorative referent was completely spelled out in that comment.
**
48. jandre
"I love the 90's style & Thorgy pleases me, since he reminds me of a long lost Milli Vanilli group member."
-snip-
Milli Vanilli were a Black German R&B duo (late 1980s, early 1990s). Both of these men wore their hair in dreadlocks.
**
49.strawberryvines
"those dreadsss!!! lol like this one."
-snip-
The screen photo of this commenter is a black women with dreads.
****
EXCERPT #4:
From https://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace/comments/4cekpq/an_open_letter_to_kat_blaque_regarding_rupauls/
[Note: This discussion thread was posted in response to a Huffington Post article by Kat Blaque that indicated that Ru-Paul's Drag Race was anti-black". All of these comments are from March 29, 2016.]
qbertp
"As someone not from the US and very little related to racial problems of this kind, it's just so absurd to me.
I feel the same way .-. it's all so confusing, i'm not counting how many "latino" or "asian" or "black" queens are on the show... lots of queens had "bad edits" but i refuse to believe it's a racial thing, even because in season 7 ... I loved Kennedy °:°, she's funny, beautiful and talented, each time I re-watch the season I think she's one of my favourites (I was just a bit annoyed and surprised in the end when Ginger and Kennedy read the younger queens... but again °.° that's their personality, I guess)
you know what... I'm scared. You're all complaining about thorgy's dreads, "cultural appropriation" and stuff like that, are british people offended by Dela's Maggie Smith or Ginger's Adele? I mean i bet no russian is complaining about Katya pretending to be russian, and no asian is complaining about Trixie wearing a chinese Qipao awkwardly mixed with Japanese features, nor I'm complaining about Miss Fame's weird italian accent (I had a good laugh instead) or egyptians making pizza (I swear they're the best pizza makers in Rome °:°) - AW WAIT i read somewhere KimChi was offensive to Japanese people because she said she was like a walking ANIME and she's Corean o.o, guys that's crazy. Am I offended because every single character in an anime is actually japanese but it's portrayed as white with exaggerated white features? (If ever I'm concerned because Japanese people seem to underestimate their own beauty and culture O.o - and of course, it's weird they rarely diversify ethnicities)
I dunno, i wish there were more italian references in the show °:° mock an Opera! Sing some italian songs, make a fellini spoof i dunno X.X i'm confused, someone help me understand all this hatred ."
-snip-
This commenter refers to White contestants Dela, Ginger, Katya, Trixie, and Miss Fame, and Asian contestant KimChi- all of whom were on other Seasons of Ru Paul's Drag Race.
**
Vervaine,
"Thory's hair is a little different than putting on an accent because Black hair (in America at least) has been a huge problem for black people. Basically, black hair was/is deemed unattractive which is why relaxing (which is terrible for your hair), weaves, wigs, etc. are popular among black women. So when a white person takes a hairstyle traditionally associated with black hair, it is having your cake and eating it too. IE white hair is the apex, the ideal but if a white person wants to wear dreads then they're cool because it's so unique. Whereas afros and dreads are usually considered unprofessional hair styles even though black hair can be easily managed that way/does that naturally unlike white hair.
TL;DR: When black hair is deemed ugly/unprofessional and black people feel obligated to conform to white beauty standards both socially and professionally, it's not cute when a white person has "black" hair to be... edgy? Unique?"
**
Reply
qbertp
"thanks Vervaine, I have some more clues now, I didn't know "traditional black hair" was deemed unprofessional I guess the piece I was missing is that discrimination is still a topical issue in the U.S., in that case I understand you could feel in some way duped by a white guy wearing a tipically black hairdo.
however for the sake of conversation, following that logic LOADS of things we take as granted should be re-considered .-. I mean Drag itself consists of men dressing up as women, which applies perfectly to your example: women were mistreated, under payed, and often accused of dressing up too sexually, so men shouldn't dress up as women because it's dis-respectful? I mean it could be in a sense... but I believe we're over that..., at least on this sub... sigh. (Guys these issues are really tangled, I need some further study, in fact if you want to counter argument, please do, i'm sorry it looks like i'm pontificating but I just want to have a better picture, really).
I mean the languages we speak today are the unprofessional versions of the ancient ones, eventually borrowed by the same elite who initially despised them, because some clever guy once said "Latin is beautiful but what people speak is equally valuable" °.° And that was a relief not an offense.
It sounds a bit paradoxical to me because it looks like the solution to the problem would be... sharing your culture and allow it to become normal and beautiful at the eyes of the world. (Of course if you have dreads and you're a racist, you're an ass**le; just as much as if you're homophobic and you hate gay people, but you know...)
Between you and me, aesthetically I don't like Thorgy's dreads as much as i don't like Coco wearing blue contacts while not in drag, or a man wearing a skirt in everyday life (aesthetically, because i have a different taste) but I know i could change my mind and become accustomed to a new taste sooner or later, and even ... i dunno ... wear a skirt?
Still on the other hand black people with blue eyes are born every day and (I'm from southern Italy) I know Italians with hair thicker and curlier than most black people, who would likely develop dread naturally if they didn't comb, so what really defines tradition? What really define race, they're really vague and fleeting concepts, I mean history demonstrate they're bound to mix and change, so why should i stop progress °.°
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/black-white-twins-meet-sisters-5256945 Those two lovely girls are twin sisters, who's black and who's white? Does the ginger one feels white or the brunette one feels black, what does that even mean! °.° Shouldn't they feel...Irish? (I now I feel Italian, I would never think to label myself as white). Is the ginger one allowed to braid her hair? O.O So if "hair" is a symbol for discrimination, I just hope in the future the progress will continue to wipe every boundary out :p as it has always done, and that's why nowadays we can enjoy a show about men in drag and homosexuality as a normal thing
I grew up in a country which constantly laughs at its own stereotypes, and is ... PROUD of them. Stereotypes are a form of folk culture, and represent the easiest way to spot your flaws and your strenghts... i can't really explain myself It's a tricky and philosophical matter .-. I shan't really talk without further reasoning I'm sorry, however kudos to Naomi Daniels (Btw we have a great Donatella Versace impersonator here, she's crazy funny, i wish there was a subbed version of her sketch on youtube, it's like Donatella meets Deathbecomesher)"
-snip-
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2016/03/selected-comments-from-rebuttal-of-kat.html for more excerpts of this discussion, including responses to the comments about living in a country that is proud of its stereotypes.
****
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
Tuesday, March 29, 2016
Selected Comments From A Rebuttal Of Kat Blaque's Critique Of "Ru Paul's Drag Race" Being Anti-Black
Edited by Azizi Powell
It should be no secret to regular pancocojams visitors that I'm a fan of the American television series RuPaul's Drag Race. For those who aren't hip to this series, "RuPaul's Drag Race is an American reality competition television series produced by World of Wonder for Logo TV. The show documents RuPaul in his search for "America's next drag superstar."[3] RuPaul plays the roles of host, mentor, and source of inspiration for this series, as contestants are given different challenges each week. RuPaul's Drag Race employs a panel of judges, including RuPaul, Michelle Visage and a host of other guest judges, who critique contestants' progress throughout the competition. The title of the show is a play on drag queen and drag racing, and the title sequence and song "Drag Race" both have a drag-racing theme." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race. Click the "Gay culture" tag below for previous pancocojams posts that refer to that television series.
This post documents selected comments from a current (March 28, 2016-March 29, 2016) Reddit discussion thread about RuPaul's Drag Race. That discussion thread was prompted by a recent Huffington Post article which indicated that that series was anti-Black.
I'm documenting and sharing selected comments from that Reddit discussion thread for their socio-cultural content.
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2016/03/white-people-with-dreadlocks-with.html Part II of this post. Part II provides excerpts of selected online commentary about White people who wear their hair in dreadlocks with special attention to comments about Thorgy Thor, a White contestant on Ru Paul's Drag Race, Season 8.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
****
SELECTED COMMENTS
Editor's note:
A number of comments in that Reddit discussion thread contain profanity. Pancocojams' policy prohibits the full spelling of most profanity. Therefore, I've added an asterisk to indicate when a partial spelling of a word is used although the full spelling is given in that original comment. All other comments are given as they are written in that discussion thread, including bold font and eclipses that are found in those comments.
These comments are numbed by me for referencing purposes only. However, these selected comments may not be given in consecutive order (since some comments aren't quoted). Brief explanatory comments have been added below a few of these comments.
The original article from Kat Blaque can be found at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kat-blaque/performative-blackness-an_b_9545212.htm
In this article, Kat Blaque claims that Ru Paul's Drag Race is racist because Ru Paul, and other involved in that series, including the drag queen contestants, engage in "performative blackness."
Naomi_Daniels provides an item by item response to Kat Blaque's article. I recommend reading that article and Naomi_Daniel's point by point rebuttal of Kat Blaque's claim. Here are selected comments from that Reddit thread (March 28, 2016, March 29, 2016)
From https://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace/comments/4cekpq/an_open_letter_to_kat_blaque_regarding_rupauls/
"An open letter to Kat Blaque regarding RuPaul's Drag Race criticisms of anti-blackness in your recent Huffington Post article self.rupaulsdragrace
Submitted March 28, 2016, by Naomi_Daniels
..."Since you blocked me, a fellow black trans woman, despite my politeness, on twitter, I think I'll sip some tea over here instead.
Time to fill this cup."....
1. KikiRarar
"Can I get an Amen?!
I find it particularly distasteful that she would refer to Ru as a 'white man in blackface' Ru IS black, there is no way he is physically capable of blackface. I assume she means 'blackface' as in amping up his 'blackness' by being sassier in drag. (failing to note that sass and quick wit are key parts of drag culture) If this is the case then suggesting that a black man is only truly 'black' when he displays these traits constantly, basically saying that to be black you have to behave a certain way and embody certain traits and if you don't embody these traits, regardless of skin colour, you are not black. This is stereotyping and last time I checked that was racist. Kat is effectively perpetuating stereotypes with this claim, which is ironic as she then criticises Ru and Faith Evans for supposedly doing the same.This article is full of shi"
-snip-
The word "shi" is given as it was written in that post.
Faith Evans was a guest on that particular show whose role was to give pointers to the drag queen contestants who were tasked with performing a parody of the television series Empire,.
**
2. xtlou
"There is absolutely a belief black people can perform black face and for those who believe it, it's highly offensive to them: a current high profile example is Zoe Saldana's portrayal of Nina Simone. There are a lot of people, including Simone's family, upset regarding the skin darkening and prosthetics used in Saldana's performance.
What I personally find interesting is the author of the FluffPo article is upset of the characterizations of black people, the promotion of stereotypes regarding the black community.....on a show where men dress and perform, promoting stereotypes of women it sets standards for required femininity:
If you're not wearing nails, you're not doing drag Silhouettes (pad for the Gods so you can have that hourglass shape) I'm gonna tell you a story about flats. No. The debate of drag styles: fishy seen as the epitome over campy, for example The wearing of "pants" in drag & belief it's too masculine.
If anything, Rupaul is a black man in "blonde, white woman face" as she most frequently wears straightened blonde hair with makeup which minimizes her natural features. The illusion of being female is the art. Rupaul is an artist and performer when he becomes The Monster, it is the depiction of a character."
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor:
Click http://newsone.com/3374918/zoe-saldanas-use-of-dark-makeup-in-nina-simone-biopic-sparks-colorism-controversy/ for information about the controversy over Zoe Saldana's portraying Nina Simone in an upcoming movie.
**
3. Naomi_Daniels
"Thank you for bringing up Zoe.
However, she's not white, which is what Kat is claiming Ru is. The problem with Zoe is that she doesn't claim to be black but is perfectly fine with taking black roles. Also, yes, she has to wear makeup and sh&t * to make her look like Nina Simone. It's incredulous."
**
4. xtlou
"Sometimes Zoe doesn't want to identify as anything other than a member of the human race and says things like white is the color of paper. Other times, she claims to be black and has even claimed the black community as hers. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/14/zoe-saldana-for-allure-talks-race_n_3271742.html Ultimately, she says she wasn't raised to think of ethnicity or race growing up and seems insulted when her work or identity is boiled down to such.
The Simone estate associates feels a black of African decent instead of Puerto Rican and Dominican decent should have been cast.
There are many people who feel people of color portraying with cosmetics the appearance of darker people of blackface. I can understand both sides of the debate and have no fully formed opinion of my own: I was just sharing other viewpoints.
The claim Ru is a white man? That's some ignorant, trolling rhetoric."
**
5. Naomi_Daniels
"I'm not disagreeing with you on Zoe. I thought it was odd for her to be dressed up as Nina Simone, period. But I wouldn't call it blackface, because it diminishes the black she does have. I was just extrapolating from what you already said. :) for me, there's little difference between saying Ru is a white man in blackface and saying Zoe puts on blackface. It's essentially saying that these two people aren't black. Which is absolutely absurd and unnecessarily divisive. Though it does exist for Zoe, I don't think its existence grants the argument any shred of merit."
**
6. mrsflowers
"YES. So much this, more than anything in that article I hate what she says about Ru. In addition to everything you wrote, I think Ru's persona is just very campy, which means being overly theatrical and aware of it, which honestly explains why Kat sees her as simply "performing" her blackness. But context is important--Ru is entrenched in the gay community and camp is a huge part of gay culture. Kat doesn't seem to realize that.
More importantly, Ru's campy persona makes her 'marketable' to a larger group of people. In the 90s Ru became popular not because America wanted to see a man in a skintight dress, but because her performance in that dress was able to unite people of all backgrounds. And that was a pretty big deal at that time. Gay, straight, black, white, man, woman, Ru made a lot of people smile with her light-hearted 'cartoon' persona. I see an end goal in Kat's criticism of Ru being stripped of that ability--of Ru adopting a persona that not only perpetuates stereotypes, but leaves the world with one less reason to put our differences aside and laugh together, and that bothers me most of all."
**
7. lilPoundcake
"performative gender is a valid theory but i don't see how a black man is performing blackness
you could argue that culture is performative, but that doesnt make it bad. people rarely consciously perform anything"
**
8. lutheranian
"I can see it meaning two things:
He doesn't 'act black'
He's wealthy, powerful, and built himself a successful empire and is therefore being likened to a white businessman.
Either way it's fu&&&d* up because she's doing exactly what you said, perpetuating stereotypes. It's either "he needs to act this way and talk like this and do this" or "he's greedy and selfish and looking out for himself. he doesn't care about the black community because he doesn't do this and this and that."
**
9. harleyquinn18
"She claimed that you can tell how a black queen is going to be when they were on the show. So would you say Milan, LeShawn, Latrice and Dida were all the same? No! Every single queen is sassy because they're f&&&ing* Drag Queens. RuPaul does a lot for the black community by breaking stereotypes of what it means to be black. He is showing that black men can be feminine and campy, without the whole "ghetto" or "sassy black woman" trope. This show has done so much for the LGBT community and Kat is a member of that community herself. So for her to critique the show for the praise of "being socially aware" is totally insulting."
**
10. gbinasia
"As I move into a stage in my life where I am more aware of things, I cannot look at even some of my favorite shows and feel like they are without criticism. That is part of the burden that comes with being socially aware.]
Closes tab, feels better."
-snip-
This quote in italics is from Kat Blaque's article.
**
11. lilPoundcake
"well to be fair as a kid i loved the black mammy that was on early tom & jerry cartoons because i was completely oblivious to what they were parodying (i also thought she was the owner of the house...)
today i just cringe at those cartoons..."
**
12. sharpgold
"I remember Kat Blaque's original YouTube video where she called Ru a white man in blackface and I was pretty unimpressed by that.
I wanna stand up and just CLAP your real talk. Yesss."
**
13. lilPoundcake
"who is she to tell others how to be black or not black
last time i checked only requirement to be considered black is having black skin"
**
14. sharpgold
"I know right? There's also something really nasty about telling someone they're not 'black enough' - that's exactly the kind of toxic identity policing that I've had thrown at me before (I guess we all have) and it's alllll about getting you to shut up because your opinion isn't the 'right one'."
**
15. ryandignant
"Can someone who calls herself Kat Blaque really deride others' "performative blackness""
**
16. 18hourbruh
Latrice Royale was, in reality, a very large, very dark black man who went to jail. When was the last time such a man was given such a beautiful non-fiction television portrayal? I mean, seriously. She was funny, talented, wise, compassionate... She's probably the favorite queen of a LOT of fans if judged just on personality.
It's kind of funny that this is a current attitude toward the show. I remember how after the first three seasons people were worried a white queen could never win, because Ru was just looking for tall dark glamazons that reminded her of herself!
-snip-
Latrice Royale was a contestant on RuPaul's Drag Race Season 4.
**
17. qbertp
"I grew up in a country which constantly laughs at its own stereotypes, and is ... PROUD of them. Stereotypes are a form of folk culture, and represent the easiest way to spot your flaws and your strenghts... i can't really explain myself It's a tricky and philosophical matter .-. I shan't really talk without further reasoning I'm sorry, however kudos to Naomi Daniels
(Btw we have a great Donatella Versace impersonator here, she's crazy funny, i wish there was a subbed version of her sketch on youtube, it's like Donatella meets Deathbecomesher)"
**
18. MelvarkieTeam
"Agreed. As a Dutch person I just laugh when we get portrayed with a German accent, as farmers with wooden shoes or just as really rude people. People like Kat Blaque are just professionally butt hurt. They don't understand the difference between appropriation (like using sacred garments as fashion) and appreciation (A white girl getting cornrows or box braids, because she thought it looked cute) Especially when something is a parody you just amp up stereotypes to a 100. The best thing to deal is to laugh at it. I mean Najib Amhali a Dutch comedian constantly makes stereotypical jokes about Morrocan people and nobody is butthurt, because we all know they are jokes with a small truth that is amped up.."
**
19. lilPoundcake
"it's less funny when your people are just criminals, hookers and thugs"
**
20. qbertp
"well I'm italian, what should I think about "the godfather" and "the sopranos"?"
**
21. lilPoundcake
"there are other non criminal italians. serbs in media are literally just terrorists, war criminals and sex workers."
**
22. qbertp
"Of course, I agree that's an unfair depiction, that's why I believe the "you're not allowed to play black" issue is just a tiny part of the whole problem."
**
23. dsaitken
"I don't get this either. If Rupaul acts "white" then doesn't that mean Kat Blaque believes black/white people act fundamentally differently and the stereotypes she complains about her essential to being black?"
**
24. dsaitken
"Derrick Barry posted that the script described his character as black....
When Trixie/Sharon Needles/Jessica Wild impersonate Rupaul... they are playing a black character, right? Or I don't understand how they are not performing being black :/
I thought the whole joke was that they all had to act stereotypically black. Granted I had no idea there was a TV show called Empire until read this thread"
-snip-
"Derrick Barry" is a White drag queen who is a contestant on Ru Paul's Drag Race, Season 8.
The skit that prompted Kat Blaque's critique of Ru Paul's Drag Race was a parody of the television series Empire.
**
25. bean1998
"I'd like to add a bit to this.
Minorities are minorities because the word means that there are fewer people of a certain ethnicity. Rupaul's Drag Race is shot in the United States and the contestants come from the United States and United States territories. Black Americans are 13% of the population, Hispanic and Latino are 17% of the population, and Asian Americans are 6% of the population, and mixed race are 2.3% of the population link. This Season of Rupaul's Drag Race has twelve contestants, so 25% of them are black (Bob, Dax, Chi Chi), 17% are Latino (Cynthia, Naysha), 8.3% are mixed race (Naomi Smalls), and 8.3% are Asian (Kim Chi). The under-represented race are white people with 42% (Thorgy Thor, Acid Betty, Robbie Turner, Derrick Barry, and Laila McQueen). . . though it's close, and given only 12 people to cast, it's really close.
Having said all that, I don't personally care. I want the fiercest drag queens that are available no matter what their skin color is and, while having a diverse cast, I want them to be able to pay tribute to a show as fun and ethnic as Empire without the depictions (that are definitely camping up the characters on this show) being portrayed as racist.
Finally, they are all LGBT, and we are a huge minority. Only about 3.4% of people in studies identify as being openly LGBT. This number is a bit off though as 8% of people responded that they have had sex with the same gender, and 11% are attracted to people of the same gender. So more than half of the LGBT people, even in today's increasingly open society, are closeted (especially among older generations). However, the point of all of this is that even if all 11% were openly and proudly LGBT, we would still be a minority. Shouldn't we focus on what we have in common?
-snip-
The hyperlink that is given in comment is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#Asian_Americans
**
26. Shady-Pines
"Rupaul isn't mainstream but is sort of a flagship for gay culture these days so it's bound to get a lot of scrutiny. I'd say drag race has always been pretty diverse with only season 7 being mostly white. And should queens really be blamed for performing these challenges as they're given. They're told by two black people to amp it up. The cha cha challenge was sorta awkward (albeit funny) but what could they do when ab soto wheeled in a cart of party city props for cinco de mayo? Tbh if a white queen crossed the line, then I'm sure someone like bob who is very vocal about blackface and black lives matter would talk to them
That said I think ru herself can get pretty... Tasteless (I guess we can't say problematic now without it being considered whining? Why?). But ru is black, it's his show, and I'd leave that discussion for gay poc
Like any situation it's a gray area. Ru and the show isn't without its faults, but it's definitely one of the most diverse shows on the planet"
-snip-
"Cinco de Mayo" is a United States Mexican observation.
Ab Soto was a guest on that segment of the show.
"Bob the Drag Queen" is a Black contestant on Ru Paul's Drag Race Season 8.
**
27. FormerCokeWhore
"She's also an unapologetic antisemite, who downplayed the significance of the Holocaust, downplayed antisemitism and claims of antisemitism (the fact that most Western antisemitism has been coming from the left, makes it all the more telling), and appeared to once agree that The Holocaust was 'white on white crime', despite the fact that ethnic Jews aren't white. All of this effectively constitutes a form of Holocaust Denial, thus making her a pretty wretched person.
But don't worry: Social Justice Warriors, and others on the regressive left, are about to take a death kneel. That's why they've really being getting out of hand lately. They know their movement has peaked.
It's also real cute that she pretty much stated that Ru "acts White". I'm triggered by this."
-snip-
"She" refers to Kat Blaque.
**
28. lilPoundcake
"a lot of ethnic Jews are white. we mixed a lot since the middle ages
looking at discrimination solely through skin color and ignoring ethnicity is short sighted and wrong. "white" is a nebulous concept anyway, it's only really applicable to America"
**
29. ]wakarehen
"Seriously, I can't stand how US-ers don't understand that racism works differently over here in Europe and that on top of colourist racism as it exists in the USA, ethnic heritage plays a lot in the way people get discriminated against. We'll all be whiteys mcwhites to Americans but Poles, Jews, Basques, or Romani people will be treated like sh&t* when people learn their names or the region they're from no matter how white they are and that's still racism (not ~just xenophobia~ like lots of murricans throw at us trying to make it seem less bad when we school them on the subject)"
**
30. lilPoundcake
"there's a lot of ethnic minorities here. a lot
for example, in the old soviet union, a lot of minority ethnic groups (or even members of other nations like kazakhs, uzbeks or mongolians) were presented as russian and had their heritage erased. today they still continue to do so in russia. they'd ban minority languages and force them to learn russian and identify as russian. they were all white
russins, sorbs, valachians, gorans, sanjuks, szekelys, lusetian serbs are all WHITE minorities in eastern europe. today they have organisations aimed at preserving their languages, culture and heritage, but historically they were often discriminated against. they still recieve some discrimination for not being the majority (most often on their accents, unusual names or customs)
i bet in other countries and continents, there are many examples of minorities of the same race as the majority that are discriminated against. i just dont know many because i am young and uneducated
americans have lots of immigrants who are far removed from their heritage so it makes sense to just use "white" and "black", but it's very untrue for the rest of the world."
**
31. ]wakarehen
"I went with these examples because they're the most "famous" European groups for being discriminated against so the murricans don't feel too lost lol (and because I am part of one of them eh)
There definitely are minority ethnicities who see their cultures and languages close to getting wiped out by the majority group in lots of countries on all continents, I'm no historian or anthropologist so I don't know and can't talk about all or even half of them but learning about it is never not interesting. Also you may be young but you definitely seem educated about a part of them so props to you and all the time you have ahead to learn even more."
**
32. apparatus86
"When I tried to present similar arguments to an american SJW he basically said "Well it's white on white violence so it doesn't really count." And I just ugh"
**
33. poppy-picklesticks
"Yeah, I have noticed a lot of SJWs, for all their constant patting themselves on the back about how aware and socially conscious they are, are so painfully Murrica-centric it's comical. And not even all of Murrica, just the specific patch they reside in. They really think the entire world is an extension of their immediate surrounding area of mid 2010s Murrica and it's kinda hilarious."
-snip-
From knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior
Know Your Meme
"Feb 19, 2015 - Social Justice Warrior is a pejorative label applied to bloggers, activists and commentators who are prone to engage in lengthy and hostile debates against others on a range of issues concerning social injustice, identity politics and political correctness."
**
34. Azoolah
""Rupaul is a white man in black face" is far more racist than anything thats ever happened in the show. Your problem is that you dont like stereotypes of black people being perpetuated yet you are going to critique a nonstereotypical black person for not being black enough??? Thats ridiculous. She has some points that I think are worth discussing in that article but that is too much."
**
35. vrocotamy
"I normally don't get involved in these racially tinged Reddit disputes anymore, but I agree with alot of the points by /u/Naomi_Daniels. I'm not black, but saying Ru is "anti-black" or a "white man in blackface" is stooping pretty low, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It implies there's a correct way to be black that Ru misses, or, even worse, that Ru is a traitor to her race. It's not as if Ru enthusiastically propagates political views that have a negative effect on the majority of black people, e.g. Ben Carson or Tim Scott. Ru and Kat Blaque have very deeply held and sincere differences about how media stereotypes of black people should be dealt with, and probably have a different idea of what blackness means. That doesn't make Ru's black identity invalid. Ru is very much so a product of her experiences growing up as a lower middle-class, effeminate gay black man and aspiring drag queen in San Diego and Atlanta in the '60s and '70s. She's fairly ambivalent about aspects of any identity she fits into - black, gay, etc. And, in the '70s when Ru was growing up, black left institutional politics were not particularly friendly to LGBT people. Unfortunately, it's a feature of in-group politics in virtually any minority (LGBT, Jewish, Latino etc. etc.) that some will claim a member of "X" group is not "X" enough. I don't agree with everything Ru says - and I find a lot of the anti-KB circlejerk here vicarious and excessive - but it's offensive and disrespectful to call her a "white man in blackface" in any more than a joking way.
**
36. Gay_milhouse
"Great rebuttal but i feel like a lot of the comments here completely dismiss the original article as having any sort of point.
Should we not even look at the possibility that performative blackness exists on Drag Race? Do we just dismiss that when Derrick is told to have more soul, he immediately starts twerking and hollering "Derrick Booty Berry" and even bob starts to say, "They don't mean act bl..." and is cut off.
Sure, a lot of Kat's points may be tone deaf and lacking a greater sense of context, but just asking these questions doesn't mean you're all problematic for enjoying the show. I find it interesting to get as many cultural perspectives about something i enjoy, to just dismiss them gives us a disadvantage to further enrich a show we all love.
And all the comments just dismissing everything as "tumblr SJW" are so god damn tone deaf and annoying.
**
37. lilPoundcake
"recognizing something as existing doesn't mean it has to be attacked.
drag race is an interesting exercise in performative blackness, femininity, masculinity and there is a lot that can be said without slinging sh&t.* i do think rupaul can be "problematic" but it should be examined rationally and not just in RPDR=RACIST REEEEEEEE sort of way"
**
38. sarcastic
"Thank you for this. Yes, Kat may have been off base with this one, and I like a lot of things said in this rebuttal, but damn this sub likes to go off every time issues of racism are even touched upon. And the irony of people complaining about overuse of the word "problematic" while simultaneously falling over themselves to yell TUMBLR TUMBLR SJW every time race comes up... lord."
**
39. xxglossxx
"She's full of sh&t*. I hate her. She acts like only colored queens get hate."
**
40. PrankHan
"...Colored?"
**
41. simple_sammy
"I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she meant people of color (e.g. black, Asian, Latino, etc.) when she said colored..
Unless she didn't mean that, then drag huh."
**
42. rrea436
"the sub is filled with Internationals. (I'm european myself) but in many places the term "coloured" is still the prefered term.
I'd hope for ignorance over malicious."
**
43. MadamMadLove
"Okay, sorry for sounding ignorant, but it is offensive to say "colored"? I'm not from the U.S.."
**
44. Naomi_Daniels
"Colored?"
-snip-
“Colored” and “People of Color” aren’t the same thing. In the United States "Colored" is a long retired referent for African Americans. As such "Colored" may be considered to be pejorative. "People of Color" is a relatively recent (about 1990s or early 2000s) referent for anyone who isn't White. POC is preferred instead of the referent "minorities".
**
45. BequeefedUntoTheeHenny of the Hen Party
""You say that skit is anti-blackness personified and has people putting on blackness on as a mask but not once in your article did you question if the problem is Empire, with his wanton portrayal of a feuding family fighting for scraps over a music empire, and ITS portrayal of blackness. Because you DON'T. GET. DRAG. Practically all the sh&t* that happens on that skit happens on Empire."
But honieeee you snatched her by the roots
This was /u/Naomi_Daniels way of saying "Sit yo ass down and shut the hell up bi&&h!"*
Huge round of applause.
-snip-
The beginning quote in this comment is part of Naomi_Daniel's rebuttal of the Kat Blaque article.
**
46. Geniepolice
"A takedown worthy of LEGEND!"
**
47. Shamenundotcom
"SO, I love Chad Sell. Love him, love his work. I was chagrined to read his blog last week in which he and a queen from Chicago (I believe) just savaged this show and the "Empire" challenge specifically for being nothing but tired racist stereotypes. Which would be fine, except: THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE F&&&ING* CHALLENGE. It was an exaggeration of a melodrama featuring mostly African-American characters who are -- if we are being very honest -- stereotypes in and of themselves. But both Chad and the Chicago queens had to pull out the soapbox and wring their hands about how this show -- which routinely features people of color in positive story arcs -- is still somehow a minstrel show. (I'm paraphrasing.) It was so tone deaf, and to make matters worse, a white man (per his profile photo) had the audacity to call out the rampant negativity in the article in the comments, and was immediately savaged. Other commenters immediately devalued his opinion because of his race, referred to him as ugly – f&&&ing* savage.
I was going to write a response to Sell, who again, I greatly respect. (Even if I think he'll just go along with whatever opinions the person he's interviewing has, which is some bullsh&t* in a case like this.) But I decided that there was no point in fighting negativity with more negativity. And I went on and enjoyed my life.
But I'm glad someone else called out this bullsh&t* narrative."
**
48. sdsailer
"Literally hyperliberals are the absolute WORST. Like sorry we can't all baby you for your personal affectation."
**
49. lancealittle91
This is the most germane point for her argument; well said and absolutely the discussion needed to be had instead.
And nominated 3 times by Critics' Choice and once by the TCA awards. I think "mainstream" can be a misleading, catch-all term that people throw around to criticize something for being "bad because it's popular." It's hard to say what's really mainstream, but I would say Drag Race is popular. It seems to be pulling in an average rating and viewership for a show on a network like Logo. Season 5's premiere apparently had 1.3 million total viewers which appears to be fairly consistent for newer seasons (especially thanks to the Logo TV app and website).
Honestly, I think Drag Race is popular. Yes it critiques pop culture, but I don't think that automatically makes it anymore counterculture than stand up comedians are. Drag in general and historically as a movement, I certainly think so, but we should remember RuPaul's Drag Race is a commercial enterprise on a television network. Just food for thought.”
**
50. demivo
"Such eloquent posts like this are the reason I come to Reddit. If I had gold, it would be yours. Thank you so very much for the well-reasoned, passionate, interesting contribution."
**
UPDATE - March 30, 2016
51. crowsight
"What shes saying is that Ru plays off the stereotypes or misconceptions about black people. Ru is always playing on the quote, "Why it gotta be black." As if we actually care about the simple context that he refers to. Then he and judges are always wanting black queens to be more "ghetto" "edgy" "gum-poppin-divas" just to get by. As a black man he should know that is not how all black queens operate or even ARE. white gays are guilty of this because they get so much life and love for it, seeing the ghetto over dramatic sides of these queens. (I could relate this to how gay culture is pretty much stolen from black women but...) This is what sge means when refers Ru to a white man in blackface. He is playing the role of being black, but playing it for the sole entertainment of white people and at the expense of black culture, stereotypes, and misconceptions."
**
52. OOKATHUH
"And this is really the crux of the issue that people don't seem to get. There are very limited templates of what an acceptable black woman should be like in the media, and she's more often than not an arrogant, sassy, christian, aggressive, uneducated "bird" type of woman. But people are acting like it's irreverent and counter-cultural when in fact it's an age old stereotype used to dehumanise black women in to walking caricatures."
**
53. crowsight
"It is a crux I agree, which is why its a problem when the queens try not to be that way but are pushed into that direction. It really makes you cringe when you hear the judges say "be more urban" "get ghetto" "why it gotta be black" and so many other ... im litterally shaking my head right now because its so ridiculous. Black people offer so much, but the only side people want to see is that ghetto sassy hood side. Because that gets people ratings, thats what Ru plays off of, which is wrong. With such a platform that is changing American culture, he could be breaking down those norms but he isnt, he plays off them.
(I can't help but rememeber the jail bit that they had season 3 with latrice. She was playing some role pretty cute or whatever, yet they didnt like that and wanted her to be more ghetto or sassy. Like seriously...)"
****
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
It should be no secret to regular pancocojams visitors that I'm a fan of the American television series RuPaul's Drag Race. For those who aren't hip to this series, "RuPaul's Drag Race is an American reality competition television series produced by World of Wonder for Logo TV. The show documents RuPaul in his search for "America's next drag superstar."[3] RuPaul plays the roles of host, mentor, and source of inspiration for this series, as contestants are given different challenges each week. RuPaul's Drag Race employs a panel of judges, including RuPaul, Michelle Visage and a host of other guest judges, who critique contestants' progress throughout the competition. The title of the show is a play on drag queen and drag racing, and the title sequence and song "Drag Race" both have a drag-racing theme." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race. Click the "Gay culture" tag below for previous pancocojams posts that refer to that television series.
This post documents selected comments from a current (March 28, 2016-March 29, 2016) Reddit discussion thread about RuPaul's Drag Race. That discussion thread was prompted by a recent Huffington Post article which indicated that that series was anti-Black.
I'm documenting and sharing selected comments from that Reddit discussion thread for their socio-cultural content.
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2016/03/white-people-with-dreadlocks-with.html Part II of this post. Part II provides excerpts of selected online commentary about White people who wear their hair in dreadlocks with special attention to comments about Thorgy Thor, a White contestant on Ru Paul's Drag Race, Season 8.
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
****
SELECTED COMMENTS
Editor's note:
A number of comments in that Reddit discussion thread contain profanity. Pancocojams' policy prohibits the full spelling of most profanity. Therefore, I've added an asterisk to indicate when a partial spelling of a word is used although the full spelling is given in that original comment. All other comments are given as they are written in that discussion thread, including bold font and eclipses that are found in those comments.
These comments are numbed by me for referencing purposes only. However, these selected comments may not be given in consecutive order (since some comments aren't quoted). Brief explanatory comments have been added below a few of these comments.
The original article from Kat Blaque can be found at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kat-blaque/performative-blackness-an_b_9545212.htm
In this article, Kat Blaque claims that Ru Paul's Drag Race is racist because Ru Paul, and other involved in that series, including the drag queen contestants, engage in "performative blackness."
Naomi_Daniels provides an item by item response to Kat Blaque's article. I recommend reading that article and Naomi_Daniel's point by point rebuttal of Kat Blaque's claim. Here are selected comments from that Reddit thread (March 28, 2016, March 29, 2016)
From https://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace/comments/4cekpq/an_open_letter_to_kat_blaque_regarding_rupauls/
"An open letter to Kat Blaque regarding RuPaul's Drag Race criticisms of anti-blackness in your recent Huffington Post article self.rupaulsdragrace
Submitted March 28, 2016, by Naomi_Daniels
..."Since you blocked me, a fellow black trans woman, despite my politeness, on twitter, I think I'll sip some tea over here instead.
Time to fill this cup."....
1. KikiRarar
"Can I get an Amen?!
I find it particularly distasteful that she would refer to Ru as a 'white man in blackface' Ru IS black, there is no way he is physically capable of blackface. I assume she means 'blackface' as in amping up his 'blackness' by being sassier in drag. (failing to note that sass and quick wit are key parts of drag culture) If this is the case then suggesting that a black man is only truly 'black' when he displays these traits constantly, basically saying that to be black you have to behave a certain way and embody certain traits and if you don't embody these traits, regardless of skin colour, you are not black. This is stereotyping and last time I checked that was racist. Kat is effectively perpetuating stereotypes with this claim, which is ironic as she then criticises Ru and Faith Evans for supposedly doing the same.This article is full of shi"
-snip-
The word "shi" is given as it was written in that post.
Faith Evans was a guest on that particular show whose role was to give pointers to the drag queen contestants who were tasked with performing a parody of the television series Empire,.
**
2. xtlou
"There is absolutely a belief black people can perform black face and for those who believe it, it's highly offensive to them: a current high profile example is Zoe Saldana's portrayal of Nina Simone. There are a lot of people, including Simone's family, upset regarding the skin darkening and prosthetics used in Saldana's performance.
What I personally find interesting is the author of the FluffPo article is upset of the characterizations of black people, the promotion of stereotypes regarding the black community.....on a show where men dress and perform, promoting stereotypes of women it sets standards for required femininity:
If you're not wearing nails, you're not doing drag Silhouettes (pad for the Gods so you can have that hourglass shape) I'm gonna tell you a story about flats. No. The debate of drag styles: fishy seen as the epitome over campy, for example The wearing of "pants" in drag & belief it's too masculine.
If anything, Rupaul is a black man in "blonde, white woman face" as she most frequently wears straightened blonde hair with makeup which minimizes her natural features. The illusion of being female is the art. Rupaul is an artist and performer when he becomes The Monster, it is the depiction of a character."
-snip-
Pancocojams Editor:
Click http://newsone.com/3374918/zoe-saldanas-use-of-dark-makeup-in-nina-simone-biopic-sparks-colorism-controversy/ for information about the controversy over Zoe Saldana's portraying Nina Simone in an upcoming movie.
**
3. Naomi_Daniels
"Thank you for bringing up Zoe.
However, she's not white, which is what Kat is claiming Ru is. The problem with Zoe is that she doesn't claim to be black but is perfectly fine with taking black roles. Also, yes, she has to wear makeup and sh&t * to make her look like Nina Simone. It's incredulous."
**
4. xtlou
"Sometimes Zoe doesn't want to identify as anything other than a member of the human race and says things like white is the color of paper. Other times, she claims to be black and has even claimed the black community as hers. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/14/zoe-saldana-for-allure-talks-race_n_3271742.html Ultimately, she says she wasn't raised to think of ethnicity or race growing up and seems insulted when her work or identity is boiled down to such.
The Simone estate associates feels a black of African decent instead of Puerto Rican and Dominican decent should have been cast.
There are many people who feel people of color portraying with cosmetics the appearance of darker people of blackface. I can understand both sides of the debate and have no fully formed opinion of my own: I was just sharing other viewpoints.
The claim Ru is a white man? That's some ignorant, trolling rhetoric."
**
5. Naomi_Daniels
"I'm not disagreeing with you on Zoe. I thought it was odd for her to be dressed up as Nina Simone, period. But I wouldn't call it blackface, because it diminishes the black she does have. I was just extrapolating from what you already said. :) for me, there's little difference between saying Ru is a white man in blackface and saying Zoe puts on blackface. It's essentially saying that these two people aren't black. Which is absolutely absurd and unnecessarily divisive. Though it does exist for Zoe, I don't think its existence grants the argument any shred of merit."
**
6. mrsflowers
"YES. So much this, more than anything in that article I hate what she says about Ru. In addition to everything you wrote, I think Ru's persona is just very campy, which means being overly theatrical and aware of it, which honestly explains why Kat sees her as simply "performing" her blackness. But context is important--Ru is entrenched in the gay community and camp is a huge part of gay culture. Kat doesn't seem to realize that.
More importantly, Ru's campy persona makes her 'marketable' to a larger group of people. In the 90s Ru became popular not because America wanted to see a man in a skintight dress, but because her performance in that dress was able to unite people of all backgrounds. And that was a pretty big deal at that time. Gay, straight, black, white, man, woman, Ru made a lot of people smile with her light-hearted 'cartoon' persona. I see an end goal in Kat's criticism of Ru being stripped of that ability--of Ru adopting a persona that not only perpetuates stereotypes, but leaves the world with one less reason to put our differences aside and laugh together, and that bothers me most of all."
**
7. lilPoundcake
"performative gender is a valid theory but i don't see how a black man is performing blackness
you could argue that culture is performative, but that doesnt make it bad. people rarely consciously perform anything"
**
8. lutheranian
"I can see it meaning two things:
He doesn't 'act black'
He's wealthy, powerful, and built himself a successful empire and is therefore being likened to a white businessman.
Either way it's fu&&&d* up because she's doing exactly what you said, perpetuating stereotypes. It's either "he needs to act this way and talk like this and do this" or "he's greedy and selfish and looking out for himself. he doesn't care about the black community because he doesn't do this and this and that."
**
9. harleyquinn18
"She claimed that you can tell how a black queen is going to be when they were on the show. So would you say Milan, LeShawn, Latrice and Dida were all the same? No! Every single queen is sassy because they're f&&&ing* Drag Queens. RuPaul does a lot for the black community by breaking stereotypes of what it means to be black. He is showing that black men can be feminine and campy, without the whole "ghetto" or "sassy black woman" trope. This show has done so much for the LGBT community and Kat is a member of that community herself. So for her to critique the show for the praise of "being socially aware" is totally insulting."
**
10. gbinasia
"As I move into a stage in my life where I am more aware of things, I cannot look at even some of my favorite shows and feel like they are without criticism. That is part of the burden that comes with being socially aware.]
Closes tab, feels better."
-snip-
This quote in italics is from Kat Blaque's article.
**
11. lilPoundcake
"well to be fair as a kid i loved the black mammy that was on early tom & jerry cartoons because i was completely oblivious to what they were parodying (i also thought she was the owner of the house...)
today i just cringe at those cartoons..."
**
12. sharpgold
"I remember Kat Blaque's original YouTube video where she called Ru a white man in blackface and I was pretty unimpressed by that.
I wanna stand up and just CLAP your real talk. Yesss."
**
13. lilPoundcake
"who is she to tell others how to be black or not black
last time i checked only requirement to be considered black is having black skin"
**
14. sharpgold
"I know right? There's also something really nasty about telling someone they're not 'black enough' - that's exactly the kind of toxic identity policing that I've had thrown at me before (I guess we all have) and it's alllll about getting you to shut up because your opinion isn't the 'right one'."
**
15. ryandignant
"Can someone who calls herself Kat Blaque really deride others' "performative blackness""
**
16. 18hourbruh
Latrice Royale was, in reality, a very large, very dark black man who went to jail. When was the last time such a man was given such a beautiful non-fiction television portrayal? I mean, seriously. She was funny, talented, wise, compassionate... She's probably the favorite queen of a LOT of fans if judged just on personality.
It's kind of funny that this is a current attitude toward the show. I remember how after the first three seasons people were worried a white queen could never win, because Ru was just looking for tall dark glamazons that reminded her of herself!
-snip-
Latrice Royale was a contestant on RuPaul's Drag Race Season 4.
**
17. qbertp
"I grew up in a country which constantly laughs at its own stereotypes, and is ... PROUD of them. Stereotypes are a form of folk culture, and represent the easiest way to spot your flaws and your strenghts... i can't really explain myself It's a tricky and philosophical matter .-. I shan't really talk without further reasoning I'm sorry, however kudos to Naomi Daniels
(Btw we have a great Donatella Versace impersonator here, she's crazy funny, i wish there was a subbed version of her sketch on youtube, it's like Donatella meets Deathbecomesher)"
**
18. MelvarkieTeam
"Agreed. As a Dutch person I just laugh when we get portrayed with a German accent, as farmers with wooden shoes or just as really rude people. People like Kat Blaque are just professionally butt hurt. They don't understand the difference between appropriation (like using sacred garments as fashion) and appreciation (A white girl getting cornrows or box braids, because she thought it looked cute) Especially when something is a parody you just amp up stereotypes to a 100. The best thing to deal is to laugh at it. I mean Najib Amhali a Dutch comedian constantly makes stereotypical jokes about Morrocan people and nobody is butthurt, because we all know they are jokes with a small truth that is amped up.."
**
19. lilPoundcake
"it's less funny when your people are just criminals, hookers and thugs"
**
20. qbertp
"well I'm italian, what should I think about "the godfather" and "the sopranos"?"
**
21. lilPoundcake
"there are other non criminal italians. serbs in media are literally just terrorists, war criminals and sex workers."
**
22. qbertp
"Of course, I agree that's an unfair depiction, that's why I believe the "you're not allowed to play black" issue is just a tiny part of the whole problem."
**
23. dsaitken
"I don't get this either. If Rupaul acts "white" then doesn't that mean Kat Blaque believes black/white people act fundamentally differently and the stereotypes she complains about her essential to being black?"
**
24. dsaitken
"Derrick Barry posted that the script described his character as black....
When Trixie/Sharon Needles/Jessica Wild impersonate Rupaul... they are playing a black character, right? Or I don't understand how they are not performing being black :/
I thought the whole joke was that they all had to act stereotypically black. Granted I had no idea there was a TV show called Empire until read this thread"
-snip-
"Derrick Barry" is a White drag queen who is a contestant on Ru Paul's Drag Race, Season 8.
The skit that prompted Kat Blaque's critique of Ru Paul's Drag Race was a parody of the television series Empire.
**
25. bean1998
"I'd like to add a bit to this.
Minorities are minorities because the word means that there are fewer people of a certain ethnicity. Rupaul's Drag Race is shot in the United States and the contestants come from the United States and United States territories. Black Americans are 13% of the population, Hispanic and Latino are 17% of the population, and Asian Americans are 6% of the population, and mixed race are 2.3% of the population link. This Season of Rupaul's Drag Race has twelve contestants, so 25% of them are black (Bob, Dax, Chi Chi), 17% are Latino (Cynthia, Naysha), 8.3% are mixed race (Naomi Smalls), and 8.3% are Asian (Kim Chi). The under-represented race are white people with 42% (Thorgy Thor, Acid Betty, Robbie Turner, Derrick Barry, and Laila McQueen). . . though it's close, and given only 12 people to cast, it's really close.
Having said all that, I don't personally care. I want the fiercest drag queens that are available no matter what their skin color is and, while having a diverse cast, I want them to be able to pay tribute to a show as fun and ethnic as Empire without the depictions (that are definitely camping up the characters on this show) being portrayed as racist.
Finally, they are all LGBT, and we are a huge minority. Only about 3.4% of people in studies identify as being openly LGBT. This number is a bit off though as 8% of people responded that they have had sex with the same gender, and 11% are attracted to people of the same gender. So more than half of the LGBT people, even in today's increasingly open society, are closeted (especially among older generations). However, the point of all of this is that even if all 11% were openly and proudly LGBT, we would still be a minority. Shouldn't we focus on what we have in common?
-snip-
The hyperlink that is given in comment is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#Asian_Americans
**
26. Shady-Pines
"Rupaul isn't mainstream but is sort of a flagship for gay culture these days so it's bound to get a lot of scrutiny. I'd say drag race has always been pretty diverse with only season 7 being mostly white. And should queens really be blamed for performing these challenges as they're given. They're told by two black people to amp it up. The cha cha challenge was sorta awkward (albeit funny) but what could they do when ab soto wheeled in a cart of party city props for cinco de mayo? Tbh if a white queen crossed the line, then I'm sure someone like bob who is very vocal about blackface and black lives matter would talk to them
That said I think ru herself can get pretty... Tasteless (I guess we can't say problematic now without it being considered whining? Why?). But ru is black, it's his show, and I'd leave that discussion for gay poc
Like any situation it's a gray area. Ru and the show isn't without its faults, but it's definitely one of the most diverse shows on the planet"
-snip-
"Cinco de Mayo" is a United States Mexican observation.
Ab Soto was a guest on that segment of the show.
"Bob the Drag Queen" is a Black contestant on Ru Paul's Drag Race Season 8.
**
27. FormerCokeWhore
"She's also an unapologetic antisemite, who downplayed the significance of the Holocaust, downplayed antisemitism and claims of antisemitism (the fact that most Western antisemitism has been coming from the left, makes it all the more telling), and appeared to once agree that The Holocaust was 'white on white crime', despite the fact that ethnic Jews aren't white. All of this effectively constitutes a form of Holocaust Denial, thus making her a pretty wretched person.
But don't worry: Social Justice Warriors, and others on the regressive left, are about to take a death kneel. That's why they've really being getting out of hand lately. They know their movement has peaked.
It's also real cute that she pretty much stated that Ru "acts White". I'm triggered by this."
-snip-
"She" refers to Kat Blaque.
**
28. lilPoundcake
"a lot of ethnic Jews are white. we mixed a lot since the middle ages
looking at discrimination solely through skin color and ignoring ethnicity is short sighted and wrong. "white" is a nebulous concept anyway, it's only really applicable to America"
**
29. ]wakarehen
"Seriously, I can't stand how US-ers don't understand that racism works differently over here in Europe and that on top of colourist racism as it exists in the USA, ethnic heritage plays a lot in the way people get discriminated against. We'll all be whiteys mcwhites to Americans but Poles, Jews, Basques, or Romani people will be treated like sh&t* when people learn their names or the region they're from no matter how white they are and that's still racism (not ~just xenophobia~ like lots of murricans throw at us trying to make it seem less bad when we school them on the subject)"
**
30. lilPoundcake
"there's a lot of ethnic minorities here. a lot
for example, in the old soviet union, a lot of minority ethnic groups (or even members of other nations like kazakhs, uzbeks or mongolians) were presented as russian and had their heritage erased. today they still continue to do so in russia. they'd ban minority languages and force them to learn russian and identify as russian. they were all white
russins, sorbs, valachians, gorans, sanjuks, szekelys, lusetian serbs are all WHITE minorities in eastern europe. today they have organisations aimed at preserving their languages, culture and heritage, but historically they were often discriminated against. they still recieve some discrimination for not being the majority (most often on their accents, unusual names or customs)
i bet in other countries and continents, there are many examples of minorities of the same race as the majority that are discriminated against. i just dont know many because i am young and uneducated
americans have lots of immigrants who are far removed from their heritage so it makes sense to just use "white" and "black", but it's very untrue for the rest of the world."
**
31. ]wakarehen
"I went with these examples because they're the most "famous" European groups for being discriminated against so the murricans don't feel too lost lol (and because I am part of one of them eh)
There definitely are minority ethnicities who see their cultures and languages close to getting wiped out by the majority group in lots of countries on all continents, I'm no historian or anthropologist so I don't know and can't talk about all or even half of them but learning about it is never not interesting. Also you may be young but you definitely seem educated about a part of them so props to you and all the time you have ahead to learn even more."
**
32. apparatus86
"When I tried to present similar arguments to an american SJW he basically said "Well it's white on white violence so it doesn't really count." And I just ugh"
**
33. poppy-picklesticks
"Yeah, I have noticed a lot of SJWs, for all their constant patting themselves on the back about how aware and socially conscious they are, are so painfully Murrica-centric it's comical. And not even all of Murrica, just the specific patch they reside in. They really think the entire world is an extension of their immediate surrounding area of mid 2010s Murrica and it's kinda hilarious."
-snip-
From knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior
Know Your Meme
"Feb 19, 2015 - Social Justice Warrior is a pejorative label applied to bloggers, activists and commentators who are prone to engage in lengthy and hostile debates against others on a range of issues concerning social injustice, identity politics and political correctness."
**
34. Azoolah
""Rupaul is a white man in black face" is far more racist than anything thats ever happened in the show. Your problem is that you dont like stereotypes of black people being perpetuated yet you are going to critique a nonstereotypical black person for not being black enough??? Thats ridiculous. She has some points that I think are worth discussing in that article but that is too much."
**
35. vrocotamy
"I normally don't get involved in these racially tinged Reddit disputes anymore, but I agree with alot of the points by /u/Naomi_Daniels. I'm not black, but saying Ru is "anti-black" or a "white man in blackface" is stooping pretty low, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It implies there's a correct way to be black that Ru misses, or, even worse, that Ru is a traitor to her race. It's not as if Ru enthusiastically propagates political views that have a negative effect on the majority of black people, e.g. Ben Carson or Tim Scott. Ru and Kat Blaque have very deeply held and sincere differences about how media stereotypes of black people should be dealt with, and probably have a different idea of what blackness means. That doesn't make Ru's black identity invalid. Ru is very much so a product of her experiences growing up as a lower middle-class, effeminate gay black man and aspiring drag queen in San Diego and Atlanta in the '60s and '70s. She's fairly ambivalent about aspects of any identity she fits into - black, gay, etc. And, in the '70s when Ru was growing up, black left institutional politics were not particularly friendly to LGBT people. Unfortunately, it's a feature of in-group politics in virtually any minority (LGBT, Jewish, Latino etc. etc.) that some will claim a member of "X" group is not "X" enough. I don't agree with everything Ru says - and I find a lot of the anti-KB circlejerk here vicarious and excessive - but it's offensive and disrespectful to call her a "white man in blackface" in any more than a joking way.
**
36. Gay_milhouse
"Great rebuttal but i feel like a lot of the comments here completely dismiss the original article as having any sort of point.
Should we not even look at the possibility that performative blackness exists on Drag Race? Do we just dismiss that when Derrick is told to have more soul, he immediately starts twerking and hollering "Derrick Booty Berry" and even bob starts to say, "They don't mean act bl..." and is cut off.
Sure, a lot of Kat's points may be tone deaf and lacking a greater sense of context, but just asking these questions doesn't mean you're all problematic for enjoying the show. I find it interesting to get as many cultural perspectives about something i enjoy, to just dismiss them gives us a disadvantage to further enrich a show we all love.
And all the comments just dismissing everything as "tumblr SJW" are so god damn tone deaf and annoying.
**
37. lilPoundcake
"recognizing something as existing doesn't mean it has to be attacked.
drag race is an interesting exercise in performative blackness, femininity, masculinity and there is a lot that can be said without slinging sh&t.* i do think rupaul can be "problematic" but it should be examined rationally and not just in RPDR=RACIST REEEEEEEE sort of way"
**
38. sarcastic
"Thank you for this. Yes, Kat may have been off base with this one, and I like a lot of things said in this rebuttal, but damn this sub likes to go off every time issues of racism are even touched upon. And the irony of people complaining about overuse of the word "problematic" while simultaneously falling over themselves to yell TUMBLR TUMBLR SJW every time race comes up... lord."
**
39. xxglossxx
"She's full of sh&t*. I hate her. She acts like only colored queens get hate."
**
40. PrankHan
"...Colored?"
**
41. simple_sammy
"I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she meant people of color (e.g. black, Asian, Latino, etc.) when she said colored..
Unless she didn't mean that, then drag huh."
**
42. rrea436
"the sub is filled with Internationals. (I'm european myself) but in many places the term "coloured" is still the prefered term.
I'd hope for ignorance over malicious."
**
43. MadamMadLove
"Okay, sorry for sounding ignorant, but it is offensive to say "colored"? I'm not from the U.S.."
**
44. Naomi_Daniels
"Colored?"
-snip-
“Colored” and “People of Color” aren’t the same thing. In the United States "Colored" is a long retired referent for African Americans. As such "Colored" may be considered to be pejorative. "People of Color" is a relatively recent (about 1990s or early 2000s) referent for anyone who isn't White. POC is preferred instead of the referent "minorities".
**
45. BequeefedUntoTheeHenny of the Hen Party
""You say that skit is anti-blackness personified and has people putting on blackness on as a mask but not once in your article did you question if the problem is Empire, with his wanton portrayal of a feuding family fighting for scraps over a music empire, and ITS portrayal of blackness. Because you DON'T. GET. DRAG. Practically all the sh&t* that happens on that skit happens on Empire."
But honieeee you snatched her by the roots
This was /u/Naomi_Daniels way of saying "Sit yo ass down and shut the hell up bi&&h!"*
Huge round of applause.
-snip-
The beginning quote in this comment is part of Naomi_Daniel's rebuttal of the Kat Blaque article.
**
46. Geniepolice
"A takedown worthy of LEGEND!"
**
47. Shamenundotcom
"SO, I love Chad Sell. Love him, love his work. I was chagrined to read his blog last week in which he and a queen from Chicago (I believe) just savaged this show and the "Empire" challenge specifically for being nothing but tired racist stereotypes. Which would be fine, except: THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE F&&&ING* CHALLENGE. It was an exaggeration of a melodrama featuring mostly African-American characters who are -- if we are being very honest -- stereotypes in and of themselves. But both Chad and the Chicago queens had to pull out the soapbox and wring their hands about how this show -- which routinely features people of color in positive story arcs -- is still somehow a minstrel show. (I'm paraphrasing.) It was so tone deaf, and to make matters worse, a white man (per his profile photo) had the audacity to call out the rampant negativity in the article in the comments, and was immediately savaged. Other commenters immediately devalued his opinion because of his race, referred to him as ugly – f&&&ing* savage.
I was going to write a response to Sell, who again, I greatly respect. (Even if I think he'll just go along with whatever opinions the person he's interviewing has, which is some bullsh&t* in a case like this.) But I decided that there was no point in fighting negativity with more negativity. And I went on and enjoyed my life.
But I'm glad someone else called out this bullsh&t* narrative."
**
48. sdsailer
"Literally hyperliberals are the absolute WORST. Like sorry we can't all baby you for your personal affectation."
**
49. lancealittle91
You say that skit is anti-blackness personified and has people putting on blackness as a mask but not once in your article did you question if the problem is Empire, with its wanton portrayal of a feuding family fighting for scraps over a music empire, and ITS portrayal of blackness. Because you DON'T. GET. DRAG. Practically all the sh&t* that happens on that skit happens on Empire.
This is the most germane point for her argument; well said and absolutely the discussion needed to be had instead.
Claim 2: "[RuPaul's] is effectively part of the mainstream and is bound to be problematic." Rebuttal: There is nothing mainstream about Drag Race. It has been nominated for an Emmy..."
And nominated 3 times by Critics' Choice and once by the TCA awards. I think "mainstream" can be a misleading, catch-all term that people throw around to criticize something for being "bad because it's popular." It's hard to say what's really mainstream, but I would say Drag Race is popular. It seems to be pulling in an average rating and viewership for a show on a network like Logo. Season 5's premiere apparently had 1.3 million total viewers which appears to be fairly consistent for newer seasons (especially thanks to the Logo TV app and website).
Honestly, I think Drag Race is popular. Yes it critiques pop culture, but I don't think that automatically makes it anymore counterculture than stand up comedians are. Drag in general and historically as a movement, I certainly think so, but we should remember RuPaul's Drag Race is a commercial enterprise on a television network. Just food for thought.”
**
50. demivo
"Such eloquent posts like this are the reason I come to Reddit. If I had gold, it would be yours. Thank you so very much for the well-reasoned, passionate, interesting contribution."
**
UPDATE - March 30, 2016
51. crowsight
"What shes saying is that Ru plays off the stereotypes or misconceptions about black people. Ru is always playing on the quote, "Why it gotta be black." As if we actually care about the simple context that he refers to. Then he and judges are always wanting black queens to be more "ghetto" "edgy" "gum-poppin-divas" just to get by. As a black man he should know that is not how all black queens operate or even ARE. white gays are guilty of this because they get so much life and love for it, seeing the ghetto over dramatic sides of these queens. (I could relate this to how gay culture is pretty much stolen from black women but...) This is what sge means when refers Ru to a white man in blackface. He is playing the role of being black, but playing it for the sole entertainment of white people and at the expense of black culture, stereotypes, and misconceptions."
**
52. OOKATHUH
"And this is really the crux of the issue that people don't seem to get. There are very limited templates of what an acceptable black woman should be like in the media, and she's more often than not an arrogant, sassy, christian, aggressive, uneducated "bird" type of woman. But people are acting like it's irreverent and counter-cultural when in fact it's an age old stereotype used to dehumanise black women in to walking caricatures."
**
53. crowsight
"It is a crux I agree, which is why its a problem when the queens try not to be that way but are pushed into that direction. It really makes you cringe when you hear the judges say "be more urban" "get ghetto" "why it gotta be black" and so many other ... im litterally shaking my head right now because its so ridiculous. Black people offer so much, but the only side people want to see is that ghetto sassy hood side. Because that gets people ratings, thats what Ru plays off of, which is wrong. With such a platform that is changing American culture, he could be breaking down those norms but he isnt, he plays off them.
(I can't help but rememeber the jail bit that they had season 3 with latrice. She was playing some role pretty cute or whatever, yet they didnt like that and wanted her to be more ghetto or sassy. Like seriously...)"
****
Thanks for visiting pancocojams.
Visitor comments are welcome.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)