Debunking The Belief That "Ring Around The Rosie" Rhymes & Singing Games Refer To The Plague

Edited by Azizi Powell

This is Part I of a three part pancocojams series about the "Ring Around The Rosies" children's rhymes and singing games. 

This post debunks the theories that these rhymes and singing games have anything to do with the plague.

Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2026/08/versions-of-rhyme-singing-game-ring.html  for Part II of this pancocojams series. That post documents various pre-February 2005* versions of "Ring Around The Rosie." (*This date is prior to the launch of  YouTube on the internet).

Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2026/08/seven-youtube-videos-of-ring-around.html__ for Part III of this pancocojams series. That post showcases seven YouTube videos of "Ring Around The Rosie" or similar titles.

The content of this post is presented for historical and folkloric purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.

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PANCOCOJAMS EDITOR'S NOTE
This pancocojams series on "Ring Around The Rosie" departs somewhat from the mission of this pancocojams blog which is to document and share examples of African American culture and other Black cultures around the world. 

The words and/or performance activities of a number of early examples of many of the children's rhymes, singing games, and cheers that are showcased on pancocojams definitely or likely were created by Black people. However, other early examples of children's rhymes, singing games, and cheers that are found in this blog- such as early examples of "Ring Around The Rosie" likely or definitely weren't created by Black people.

As is the case with all of the rhymes and singing games that have been featured in this pancocojams blog, I'm focusing on "Ring Around The Rosie" because I'm interested in its history, and its folklore-particularly how it has changed overtime. Also, as is the case with all rhymes and singing games (and cheers) that are featured in this pancocojams blog, I'm interested in documenting socio-cultural information about those examples, and exploring the socio-cultural implications of those examples.

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Pagan myth and folklore

In 1898, A Dictionary of British Folklore suggested that the game may have pagan origins. This was based on a comparison in the Sheffield Glossary with Jacob Grimm’s Deutsche Mythologie, which relates it to pagan myths. It cites a passage that reads, "Gifted children of fortune have the power to laugh roses, as Freyja wept gold," suggesting that the game’s origins may involve pagan beings of light. Another interpretation is more literal, proposing that it involved making a "ring" around roses and ending with "all fall down" as a kind of curtsy.[27]

 

In 1892, the American writer Eugene Field wrote a poem titled Teeny-Weeny, which specifically described fay folk playing ring-a-rosie.[28]

 

According to Games and Songs of American Children, published in 1883, the "rosie" was thought to refer to the French word for rose tree, with children dancing and bowing to the person in the center.[7] Some variations included literal falling down, which lessened the connection to the game-rhyme's original form. In 1898, sneezing was also noted as a symbol with superstitious and supernatural significance across various cultures.[27]

Great Plague

Since the Second World War, the rhyme has often been associated with the Great Plague of 1665 in England or with earlier outbreaks of the bubonic plague in England. However, interpreters of the rhyme before World War II make no mention of this connection.[29] By 1951, this interpretation had become widely accepted as an explanation for the rhyme’s form that had become standard in the United Kingdom. Peter and Iona Opie, leading authorities on nursery rhymes, observed:

 

The invariable sneezing and falling down in modern English versions have given would-be origin finders the opportunity to say that the rhyme dates back to the Great Plague. A rosy rash, they allege, was a symptom of the plague, and posies of herbs were carried as protection and to ward off the smell of the disease. Sneezing or coughing was a final fatal symptom, and "all fall down" was exactly what happened.[30][31]

The line Ashes, Ashes in colonial versions of the rhyme has been claimed to refer variously to cremation of bodies, the burning of victims' houses, or the blackening of skin due to the disease. This theory has been adapted to explain other versions of the rhyme.[32]

Folklore scholars consider the Great Plague explanation of the rhyme to be unfounded for several reasons. Firstly, the plague explanation did not emerge until the mid-twentieth century,[19] while the symptoms described do not align closely with those of the Great Plague.[31][33] The wide variety of forms makes it unlikely that the modern version is the most ancient one, and the words on which this interpretation is based are not present in many of the earliest records of the rhyme.[32][34] In addition, European and 19th-century versions of the rhyme suggest that this "fall" was not a literal falling down, but rather a curtsy or other bending movement that was common in other dramatic singing games.[35]”…

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SELECTED COMMENTS FROM MUDCAT DISCUSSION THREAD ABOUT "RING AROUND THE ROSIE" AND THE BELIEF THAT IT REFERS TO THE PLAGUE"

These selected comments are numbered for referencing purposes only.

From https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=21219

1. Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ring-a-ring-of-roses
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 May 00 - 05:27 PM

..."Traditional Ballad Index entry:

Ring Around the Rosie

DESCRIPTION: Singing game, with lyrics something like "Ring around the rosie, A pocket full of posies, Ashes, ashes, We all fall down."

AUTHOR: unknown

EARLIEST DATE: 1881 (_Kate Greenway's Mother Goose_, according to Opie/Opie-TheSingingGame)

[…]

The origin of the song is unknown. Pagan myth or folklore were proposed as origins at the end of the 19th century. In the mid-20th-century, it was suggested that the song reflects the Great Plague or earlier outbreaks of bubonic plague in England, with the plague's rash, protective posies of herbs, symptoms of sneezing, and finally falling down dead. However, the symptoms do not align closely with the song; the explanation emerged centuries after the plague; and European and 19th-century versions of the song do not match the interpretation either.

[...]

Baring-Gould-AnnotatedMotherGoose notes that some have connected this to the Great Plague, and Devlin, pp. 111-112, lists some of those who have suggested it. But the Baring-Goulds also observe that this is a very weak link, denied by most who have seriously studied the matter. The Opies merely state that it goes back the *time* of the plague -- and offer no direct proof even of that. The Opies also cite some possible non-English parallels; those which are in languages I can read do not strike me as truly parallel. But Devlin, pp. 115-116, also sees a strong parallel to the German version he prints on p. 116.

Devlin, pp. 117-119, has details on how the plague idea came to be popular in a very short span of time.

John Kelly, The Great Mortality: An Intimate History of the Black Death, the Most Devastating Plague of All Time, Harper Collins, 2005, pp. 20-21, has more explanation than most. According to him, the "ashes, ashes" of the third line are a reference to the bruiseline purple blotches which appeared on the bodies of some victims. These were known as "God's tokens" because they indicated that the sufferer was soon to die. He does, however, point out that this symptom is very rarely observed in modern plague. So this is a pretty weak link. Plus many versions don't have the "ashes" line. - RBW

Last updated in version 6.8

[…]

The Ballad Index Copyright 2024 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle."

**
2. Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ring-a-ring-of-roses
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 00 - 05:41 PM

"I don't think any modern folklorist would accept any association of the song with the plague. Steve Roud, Secretary of the Folklore Society, London, specifically denounced that association several months ago on a subscription newsgroup."

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3. Subject: Ring around the rosy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 May 00 - 05:45 PM

..." The invariable sneezing and falling down in modern English versions has given would-be origin finders the opportunity to say that the rhyme dates back to the days of the Great Plague. A rosy rash, they allege, was a symptom of the plague, posies of herbs were carried as protection, sneezing was a final fatal symptom, and 'all fall down' was exactly what happened. It would be more delightful to recall the old belief that gifted children had the power to laugh roses (Grimm's Deutsche Mythologie). The foreign and nineteenth-century versions seem to show that the fall was originally a curtsy or other gracious movement of a ring game (see I. and P. Opie, The Singing Game)."...

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4. Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ring-a-ring-of-roses
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 01:22 PM

..."Associating the plague with this 19th c. singing game, however, is nonsense, as has been shown here in more than one thread. Twentieth-century mythologists, as the Opies' call them, are responsible for this fiction."

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From https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=49672&messages=214&page=1
1.Subject: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,genie
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 04:51 PM

"Asked in another thread's topic so here is a new one. I would like to know where Ring Around The Rosey came from?"

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2. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:02 PM

"I've seen lots of explanations that it is based on the Black Death/Plague, and quite a lot saying this is rubbish! A verified history would be nice .."

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3. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 07:39 PM

...."A bit of a side issue: Most versions have the fall down or tumble down line. I quoted one from Louisiana, Lomax Coll., which has "squat." My wife, from Georgia, says it was always "squat" in her area. Is "squat" confined to the South or a part thereof, or is it more widespread?

 Another thought. Has it ever been related to the burning of witches or heretics??"

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4.  Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 07:48 PM

"No; it isn't old enough for that. It's quite easy to consult the Opie's Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes (available in all good libraries), and it's a constant puzzle to me why people rarely bother to do so, preferring instead to repeat long-discredited Old Wives' Tales. First printed in Britain in 1881, but apparantly known in Massachusetts around 1790; where it had none of the later accretions which people nowadays imagine to refer to the Black Death."

**
5. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 09:09 PM

..."Though a form of the rhyme is on record as having existed at the end of the 18th century, it appears at that time to have been a simple dancing game:

Ring a ring a rosie,

A bottle full of posie,

All the girls in our town,

Ring for little Josie

 

The Opies further comment

"The A-tishoo is notably absent here, as it is also in other versions [William Wells Newell, Games and Songs of American Children, 1883] gives, in which the players squat or stoop rather than fall down:

Round the ring of roses,

Pots full of posies,

The one who stoops last

Shall tell whom she loves best.

 

They go on to dismiss fairly comprehensively the "Black Death" myth, which appears to be a fanciful invention of the 20th century. I think I've quoted them on the subject here before, so there's no need to repeat it now. As I've said, the book is easily available. All of this doesn't prove, as Greg rightly points out, that sneezes and falling down did not occur in earlier versions; since, however, their first known appearance is of some 90 years after the first recorded forms of the rhyme, the balance of probability is that they are, as I said (though I should have suggested) later accretions. Whatever, there is no evidence of any kind that the rhyme is older than the 18th century, unless further material has been unearthed since the Opies wrote on the subject"

**
6.  Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 03:38 PM

"The piece left out of the puzzle in the above posts is that the plague interpretation is itself not old. There is no old folk knowledge about a connection between the plague and this rhyme. The claim seems to have been made only in the mid twentieth century, if Philip Hiscock of memorial University Newfoundland is correct.

In the absence of any sort of old folk knowledge, we can reasonably ask what evidence the mid twentieth century originators of the plague idea had. First of all, the interpretation is based essentially on one variant instead of on the huge range of texts that exist. Second, it proposes meanings for some of the words (ashes referring to cremation, ring around the rosie referring to a rash on the cheek) which are clever but not compelling. Third, even if they were compelling, why a medieval plague and not a nineteenth century outbreak of some disease?

All this suggests to a folklorist (which I am) that the whole thing is a red herring. You have to assume that the one text being analyzed retained all the oldest features (for which there is no evidence), that this text contains cryptic refernces to disease (for which there is no evidence) and that this disease was a very old plague (for which there is no evidence). In the end, whether a folklorist believes a given interpretation or not is based on evidence, and there is just no evidence of any kind that this interpretation is correct, besides a clever correspondence between some meanings of some of the words and some of the features of some diseases."

**
7. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 05:35 PM

"The plague of 1665, mentioned by Greg Stephens and others, reminded me that Samuel Pepys, who lived through this time, best known for his diaries, was a ballad collector. His collection of over 1800 was left to Magdalene College (See Firth, Introduction to "An American Garland").

The thorough explanation by Philip Hiscock should be saved because the topic will undoubtedly come up again. I can't bring up any old threads today, but titles suggest that the subject has come up several times before."...

**
8. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: masato sakurai
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:24 PM

"Another link:

(4) The "Real" Meaning of "Ring Around the Rosie"

The story of "Ring around the Rosie" and the Plague seems to be fairly widespread and diehard. A good number of websites contend or imply that there was a relationship (e.g., Black Death). Jack Maguire, in his Hopscotch, Hangman, Hot Potato, and Ha, Ha, Ha: A Rulebook of Children's Games (Prentice Hall, 1990, p. 4), reiterates this origin theory (of course, without evidence):

One of the grimmest stories of the origin of a game now called Ring-Around-the-Rosy. The first line of this verse, originally "Ring-a-ring o' roses," refers to the circular body rash that was an early symptom of the Great Plague of London, 1665. The healthy attempted to thwart the disease by carrying herbs ("A pocket full of posies"). In the final stages of the disease, the victim would start sneezing violently ("A-tishoo! A-Tishoo!," later corrupted to "ashes! Ashes!"). Death followed quickly ("We all fall down").

It would be interesting to discuss it from another point of view: "Why and how was the plague theory born in spite of nonexistence of evidence?"."

**
9. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:32 PM

"Masato, facts and evidence are irrelevant to true believers, and true believers always have the most votes. They call those who hold to facts or evidence heretics"

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10.  Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:19 PM

"A-tishoo is noted in 1883, according to Opie. Two years earlier, Greenway had published Hush! Hush! Hush! Her writings were very popular in both the British Isles and North America and Hush! would be expected there as well. When was Ashes! first noted? You suggest that it is the corruption of A-tishoo, which is possible, but this shift would have more likely taken place in England.

The interpretation of the rose tree and the circle of players as a rash seems a difficult jump; it could have been stated by a popular author or editor of a widely circulated paper or magazine. (Wasn't there a tendency for Late Victorian-Edwardian authors to make illogical jumps like that?). It seems to me that the shift to ashes! from hush or a-tishoo is more likely a "guided" one than one evolved by children.

My (unsupported) suggestion is that there is an author or editor in the woodpile, and we might be able to identify him. Children certainly(?) did not evolve the plague theory."

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11. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 07:48 PM

..."It's quite easy to consult the Opie's Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes (available in all good libraries), and it's a constant puzzle to me why people rarely bother to do so, preferring instead to repeat long-discredited Old Wives' Tales. First printed in Britain in 1881, but apparantly known in Massachusetts around 1790; where it had none of the later accretions which people nowadays imagine to refer to the Black Death"

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https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=49672&messages=214&page=2

12. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,adavis@truman.edu
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 12:35 AM

"Masato's got a good question. If we take the plague-origin-theory not as a historical proposition, but as folklore itself, then we can forget about whether it's accurate (a substantial wing of folklorists regard origins as never completely recoverable, therefore uninteresting. I never quite followed the "therefore" part). So the question becomes, "what's the attraction of believing this?" or "what function does it serve for those who tell it?" As a first guess, I'd venture that it's an antidote to the romantic view of children to imagine them cheerfully singing songs about something so horrible -- it reminds us that they have to cope with some pretty hhorrible stuff.

Best, Adam"

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13. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 01:16 AM

"Adam,

I agree with you and Masato, actually, that a very interesting question is "why would the plague theory develop without evidence." The answer, I think, has to do with how folklore has been defined and studied, and (in the end) involves your second point about origins and the folklorist.

"Folklore" (originally "folk-lore") was coined as a "good Saxon compound" to replace the term "Popular Antiquities." Antiquarians were interested in studying old stuff. Early theorists of folklore held that the truly important meanings were almost never known to the holder of the lore, but had to be ferreted out by the folklorist, because scraps of lore were really the detritus of Mythological or Historical materials that had been forgotten. Early folkorists thus had a vested interest in connecting any scrap of lore they collected to Mythology or history, the older the better. Of course, it's ironic that folklorists seeking origins essentially ended up constructing "creation myths" of their own!

This attitude has long been discarded by folklorists in academia, but there is still, I think, a fascination with old historical and mythological origins among laypeople who have read some of the classic conjectural works of folklore/myth scholarship, like Graves's The White Goddess and Frazier's The Golden Bough. It is a form of interpretation that has a sturdy tradition behind it, though it is mostly discarded by professionals today. I would guess you need look no further than the enthusiastic readers of books like those to find the source of the Plague interpretation.

As to why folklorists have largely given up studying origins as such, I think it's because the kind of work that developed out of origins-seeking, Historic-Geographic analysis, came to seem both fruitless and pretty boring. After a long, extremely laborious process, the folklorist would conclude "it appears my best guess is that the story of X originated in India in the 7th Century, though I may be wrong about this." To which most younger folklorists in the 1960s began to ask "so what?"

I agree that origins and conjecture can be interesting, but in the end if I'm going to believe any origin story, I need some evidence."

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14. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 10:16 PM

"But do you know of a book or article with the "Ashes, Ashes"? That is what I would like to find.

As Masato said, "How and why was the plague theory born in spite of the non-existence of evidence?" In other words, "Who done it?" Since it is late 19th or early 20th century, the culprit(s) should be identifiable."

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15. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 01:22 AM

"I don't think it's incontrovertible at all that "a-tishoo a-tishoo we all fall down" refers to a plague or pestilence. We are dealing with a play-party song (or a children's dancing song for English folks) where "all falling down" is just part of the game. You might as well say "you put your right foot in, you take your right foot out, you put your right foot in and you shake it all about" must be a song about epilepsy!

That's why the plague interpretation is so funny. It takes things that have perfectly easy meanings in that context ("ring around the rosy" or "ring a ring a roses" being an actual ring of children dancing around an actual or imagined rosebush), and gives them new meanings to suit a farfetched interpretation. The line with a-tishoo in it is just as likely to be a nonsense syllable as a sneeze--and anyway, sneezing isn't a symptom of the Black Death! Meanwhile, the things you'd expect to see in a song describing the plague are absent--The actual prominent symptom was not a rash on the cheek, but giant festering boils or buboes under the armpits and elsewhere. Of course, it'd be tough to rhyme that..."

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16. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: IanC
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 05:00 AM

"I wonder how often people ask those who perform these things what they think the words mean. After all, it's the fact that people keep on doing certain things which is the reason that rhymes, songs etc. are traditional.

I played "ring a roses" (atishoo version) for years as a child, without any assumptions that it was anything other than a game with quite pretty words. Of course children are unlikely to know what they're doing. There's bound to be a meaning to these things that the fools who perform them can't possibly understand ...

By the way, we often seem to fall into simple dating traps like assuming prior printing to imply earlier versions of things. For folk activities, printing depends on collection. Something can go on for years and not be collected. It won't be printed. Doesn't mean that it's later than something that was printed centuries before. Concrete evidence can only ever give a latest date. It can't be used as evidence of an earliest date. 

;-)

Ian"

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17. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: masato sakurai
Date: 29 Jul 02 - 05:07 AM

"Earlier collectors and commentators alike (Newell, Gomme, Greenaway) didn't mention its connection with the plague at all. Henry Bett, in The Games of Children: Their Origin and History (1929; Singing Tree Press, 1968), says nothing of the plague:

"There cannot be much doubt that games like Buff and Dump and Ring-a-Ring-o'-Roses, in which a laugh or a sneeze is the climax, originated in this range of quaint notions as to the uncanny significance of laughing and sneezing, and the betrayal, or the danger, or the deliverance, which these things may indicate." (p. 98)

Although Urban Legend Reference Pages: Ring Around the Rosie says "[T]he first known mention of a plague interpretation of 'Ring Around the Rosie' didn't show up until James Leasor published The Plague and the Fire in 1961," the date seems to have been earlier, because the Opies apparently had tried to debunk the theory in The Dictionary (first published in 1951). Later in 1985, they devoted a few pages to this problem in The Singing Game (Oxford, pp. 220-227):

"This story [of its being a relic of the Great Plague of 1665] has obtained such circulation in recent years it can itself be said to be epidemic. Thus the mass-circulation Radio Times, 7 June 1973, gave it a double-page headline, to advertise a documentary programme on the plague-village of Eyam (although a 1909 guide book to Eyam does not mention the rhyme); lectures at medical schools have repeated it as fact both in Britain and America (men of science are notoriously incautious when pronouncing on material in disciplines other than their own); and we ourselves have had to listen so often to this interpretation we are reluctant to go out of the house. Those infected with the belief seem unperturbed that no reference to 'Ring a Ring o' Roses' appears in Pepys's careful record of hearsay during the long months of the Plague; or that Defoe's brilliant evocation in A Journal of the Plague Year does not indicate that either sneezing or redness of spots was on men's minds at that time; or that two recent studies, Philip Ziegler's The Black Death (1969) and Professor J.F.D. Shrewsbury's History of the Bubonic Plague in the British Isles (1970), give no support to the theory, unless, that is, Thomas Vincent's observation in God's Terrible Voice in the City, 1666, is thought relevant, that roses were then neglected, since 'People dare not offer them to their noses, lest with their sweet savour that which is infectious should be attracted." (p. 221)

Their conclusion is: "Thus in 'Ring a Ring o' Roses' we have, or so it seems, a spray from the great Continental tradition of May games, that preserves the memory, however faintly, of the rose as the flower of Cupid, the wreath of roses with which Aphrodite crowned her hair, the chaplet of roses that a lover presented to his lady or with which, if she spurned him--and he followed Ovid's advice--he adorned her gatepost, the emblem that passed naturally into the social ceremony of the Middle Ages as in Chaucer's The Romaunt of the Rose...." (p. 226)

~Masato"

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18.  Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 02 - 05:36 PM

"I thought that perhaps I could find out when the the plague nonsense entered children's books at the Library. I received a bit of a shock. Books by Greenaway and Opie, Lavender's Blue and other standards of my children's days and mine are no longer on the shelves. The oldest collection of rhymes, songs and play rounds was newly assembled and copyright in 1987: Christine Allison, "I'll Tell You a Story" (but she didn't). Only about half-a-dozen had rhymes of Rosie; there were two with Ashes, Ashes and the rest were a-tischoo or similar (no squats).

One definitely stated the plague source: June Yolen's Mother Goose Songbook, 1992, Carleton House. The others had no comment.

I couldn't check the books for the smallest children; paperback and plastic, they were binned in no order and packaged in transparent bags for easy pick-up by parents; it would have taken too much time and earned me too many disaproving looks to have tried to go through them.

I remember when classics like Winnie the Pooh and the Beatrix Potter and Burgess stories were 
reprinted over and over. Now, they have either been rewritten by Disney authors or dropped altogether."

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19. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:37 PM

"As they say, it ain't over 'til it's over. I expect more to show up. We need someone to blame and send to the stake for inventing the plague tail (er tale). Probably a nice little old lady from Brooklyn or Wode-Upon-Wiggle who had a children's radio program."

**
20. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 12:16 PM

"Guest Q,

No need to blame anyone. One of the nice things about this kind of claim is that it is itself folklore; it is folklore about folklore, which folklorists have called "metafolklore" and "oral literary criticism."

People become very attached to claims like this, partly because of personal or local connections (eg. Eyam), and partly because there is just something fulfilling about the thought that such a common nursery rhyme is so old and so connected to historical events of great importance. But why blame anyone? Every single one of us is probably personally attached to at least one proposition that happens to be wrong. This mistake is no worse than many of mine!"

**
21. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 12:50 PM

"Nerd, I have, on occasion been accused of invented a story myself. All lies, of course."

**
22. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: masato sakurai
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:05 AM

[Pancocojams Editor: Masato Sakurai cites the following Mudcat discussion thread]

Subject: RE: May Games, Rose, and Betley Window
From: Hester
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:43 PM

"Someone mentioned meta-folklore -- and yes, pieces of folk custom with obscure origins do tend to generate their own aetiological myths.

Here's a case in point. Masato quoted [if I'm following his citations correctly] the Opies in _The Singing Game_ (1985)

>>>Their conclusion is: "Thus in 'Ring a Ring o' Roses' we have, or so it seems, a spray from the great Continental tradition of May games, that preserves the memory, however faintly, of the rose as the flower of Cupid, the wreath of roses with which Aphrodite crowned her hair, the chaplet of roses that a lover presented to his lady or with which, if she spurned him--and he followed Ovid's advice--he adorned her gatepost, the emblem that passed naturally into the social ceremony of the Middle Ages as in Chaucer's The Romaunt of the Rose...." (p. 226)<<<

So, the Opies have just finished "debunking" the Great Plague theory, but they replace it with their own aetiological speculations, which, to be judgemental, seem even more romantic and implausible.

The May Games are a particular interest of mine, since I like to believe that all things folkloric revolve around Robin Hood. Well, the May Games had definitely had nothing to do with Cupid or Aphrodite (that's just classical allegory being churned out from the minds of the Opies themselves).   However, the May Queen did wear a chaplet of flowers [at least in 19th century May Day revivals]. The flower most clearly associated with May Day however, was not the rose, but the hawthorn (i.e. the mayflower). May Games involved much of the same imagery as May Day, but seemed to taken place generally a bit later, around Whitsun, and thus sometimes even into June, when the rose may have in fact been in bloom.

And we might perhaps see a parallel between the ring dance of the rhyme and the Morris, which had definitely become part of May Game celebrations by 1559 [David Wiles, _Early Plays of Robin Hood_, 1981, p. 5-6). The mid-15 century stained glass window at Betley depicts Morris Dancers around a Maypole. And, indeed the "Lady" (often identified with Maid Marian) holds a rose in her hand.

However, a rose does not appear to have been a key aspect of the Morris and does not figure in any textual descriptions of the dance from the 15th and 16th centuries, when the May Games were celebrated. Nor does a rose appear in the 19th century Morris Dances recorded by Sharpe.

So, if we have a link between the May Games and Ring around the Rosie, it is one that involves a 300-year gap in the continuum, with the Betley window as the only piece of corroboratory evidence (that I'm aware of) for even this spurious association.

Cheers, Hester"

**
23. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:16 PM

"The 1790 date for the American version rests on a claim by Newell. There does not seem to be any support for his claim. Or is there? I think it is just anotherspeculation, like all the nonsense about the "Drinking Gourd."

The song may be the result of the May Day revivals (the maypole was also revived in American schools) mentioned by Hester. It would not be difficult to write a scholarly paper supporting that origin. There! A Master's thesis topic for a college student."

**
24. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Hester
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:20 PM

"My apologies, the Betley window is (at best estimates) mid-16th, not 15th century.

Thanks for mentioning that May Day also had a revival in America, Q. I didn't realize that. (Was this also in the 19th century?)

I'm afraid your hypothetical college student wouldn't get too far with that thesis topic, though, unless the maypoles used in the American revival were somehow associated with roses.

Cheers, Hester"

**
25. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:49 PM

"With respect, Hester, you seem to have mistaken a vague generalisation from the Opies as some kind of statement of fact. The bulk of their work was done 50 years ago, of course. The question to consider now would perhaps be whether or not any subsequent, verifiable research has turned up any new information. Even if roses made an appearance in recorded instances of ceremonial dance, that is not evidence of any connection with the nursery rhyme."

****
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=49672&messages=214&page=3

26. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,Icehotchik771
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:57 PM

"I'd like to now if this song is a form of death song . So many people play it as a game , but don't think about the lyrics . I want to know what the word posey means."

**
27. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:17 PM

"Well, you could always read the thread. Failing that: 

1. No.

2. A small bunch of flowers."

**
28. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,chrisnlisa03
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:28 AM

"is there an exact definitive source to once and for all determine not only the right WORDS in the song....but where the origin of the song came from? especially since not everyone at the time of the black plague may not have had scholarly abilities."

**
29. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:43 AM

"NO. and No."

**
30. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:45 AM

"chrisnlisa03, please read the thread.

 
There is no "definitive" set of words to a folk rhyme; one of the essential characteristics of folklore is that it changes all the time.

 There is usually no way to definitively establish the exact origin, either. Folklorists used to do research to establish the "Ur-form," what they believed to be the initial form a piece of folklore, and to establish its origin. Problem was, the results were always more or less speculative.

Beyond that, if you DO read the thread you'll find there is no evidence for the rhyme being as old as the Plague. Therefore the scholarly abilities of plague victims are irrelevant."

**
31. Subject: RE: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 12:46 PM

"Only one unsupported statement that puts the rhyme back as far as the late 1700s. All this has been gone over before, just read the thread."

**
32. Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: GUEST,the unknown
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 09:16 AM

"ya'll need to grow up find something else to do better with ur time"

**
33. Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM

"Well, we HAD until you revived this boring old thread!"

**
34. Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History??
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:33 PM

"danensis, while there may be links between some "nursery rhymes" and events in history, that's insufficient evidence for linking a particular rhyme to a particular event. Linguists, etymologists, and folklorists generally refuse to accept the link between "plague" or "Black Death" or any other particular event, eipdemiological or otherwise, and the "rind around the rosy" rhyme. It is a "folk etymology" unattested by hard evidence. You can still believe in it if you like, of course, but you're engagin in an act of faith, not science."

****
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=49672&messages=214&page=4

35. Subject: RE: Origins: Ring around the Rosy / Rosey
From: GUEST,Mira Butterfly
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:31 PM

"I would like to know the original verse, whether it be referring to the plague or not. All three verses; or so I am told.

Can anyone possibly help me with that?"

**
36. Subject: RE: Origins: Ring around the Rosy / Rosey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:45 PM

"There isn't an "original" form of the rhyme - there are wide variations in the earliest ones we know. Read the whole of this thread."

****
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=49672&messages=214&page=5

37. Subject: RE: Origins: Ring around the Rosy / Rosey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:12 AM

"Peter Opie, whom, along with Iona, I interviewed for Folk Review in the 1970s, described the 'plague' interpretation to me as "one of those pieces of folklore about folklore"."

**
38. Subject: RE: Origins: Ring around the Rosy / Rosey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:36 AM

"Further to my last post: Peter Opie went on to say that he didn't think children would ever have wanted to play games about dying of the plague — but they both looked a bit nonplussed, and simply replied "Good question", when I asked them: what, then, of the 'Going to the gas-chambers' game which they describe children in Auschwitz as having played, in their 'Children's Games in Street and Playground'. For some reason that I can't quite now recall I omitted this bit of our dialogue [which naturally I taped thruout with their permission] from the Folk Review feature as it eventually appeared (July 1974), so this is the first time I have published it. I still have the tape - somewhere..."

**
39. Subject: RE: Origins: Ring around the Rosy / Rosey
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:18 AM

"Following from Q, the Opies suggest the link is even more recent that the First world War. "The legend linking the plague with the game-song ... has not been found in the work of any commentator before the Second World War ..."

****
This concludes Part I of this pancocojams series.

Thanks for visiting pancocojams.

Visitor comments are welcome.

Some Older Lyrics For "Little Liza Jane" Songs From A Mudcat Folk Music Discussion Thread (Part II)

Edited by Azizi Powell

This is Part II of a four part pancocojams series about the "Little Liza Jane" ("Lil' Liza Jane") song family. 

This post presents selected comments about and lyrics for examples of "Little Liza Jane" songs that are published on the online Mudcat Folk Music Forum. I believe that these lyrics are much less familiar in the 21st century United States than the lyrics given in Part IV of this pancocojams series. 

Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2026/08/little-liza-jane-part-i-general.html for Part I of this pancocojams series. That post presents a general overview of this song. 

Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2026/08/seven-youtube-videos-of-little-liza.html for Part III of this pancocojams series. That post showcases seven YouTube videos of the song "Little Liza Jane". 

Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2026/08/three-contemporary-children-versions-of.html for Part IV of this pancocojams series. That post presents three contemporary examples of children's versions of "Little Liza Jane" and two early 20th century versions of those songs.

****
The content of this post is presented for historical, folkloric, socio-cultural, and entertainment

purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to the unknown composers of "Little Liza Jane" songs. Thanks to the early collectors and publishers of these songs, and thanks to the performers and arrangers of "Little Liza Jane" songs. Thanks to all those who are quoted in this pancocojams post.

****
PANCOCOJAMS EDITOR'S NOTE
That Mudcat Discussion thread includes more examples of and comments about "Little Liza Jane" songs. That thread is still open for comments from members and guests of that online folk music forum. 

I added numbers to these comments for referencing purposes only.

WARNING- One comment in this Mudcat discussion thread includes the derogatory referent that is known as "the n word." That comment isn't included in this pancocojams post.

**** 
SELECTED LYRICS FOR SOME EXAMPLES OF "LITTLE LIZA JANE" 

from https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2777

1. Subject: Lyr Add: L'IL LIZA JANE
From: Gene
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 12:12 AM

"Here's a few verses I have collected...

L'IL LIZA JANE

I've got a gal and you've got none, l'il Liza Jane

I've got a gal that calls me [hon], l'il Liza Jane.

 

CHORUS: Oh Eliza, l'il Liza Jane; Oh Eliza, l'il Liza Jane.

 

Liza Jane done come to me; l'll Liza Jane

We're as happy as we can be; l'il Liza Jane.

 

Come my love and live with me; l'il Liza Jane

I will take good care of thee; l'il Liza Jane.

 

Get a house and lot in Baltimore; l'il Liza Jane

Lots of children runnin' out the door; l'il Liza Jane.

 

More verses to: L'IL LIZA JANE

 

I know a gal that I adore, l'il Liza Jane.

'Way down south in Baltimore, l'il Liza Jane.

 

CHORUS: Oh, Eliza, l'il Liza Jane.; Oh, Eliza, l'il Liza Jane.

 

Down where she lives, the posies grow; l'il Liza Jane.

Chickens 'round the kitchen do' (door); l'il Liza Jane.

 

I wouldn't care how far we roam; l'il Liza Jane.

Where she's at is home sweet home; l'il Liza Jane.."

**
2. Subject: Lyr Add: GOODBYE, LIZA JANE^^
From: Barry
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 03:58 PM

"GOOD-BY LIZA JANE (according to sandbag/songburg) was a minstrel song, traveling the mid west circus route on the program for Rutledge & Rogers.

Our horse fell down the well around behind the stable (2x)

Well he didn't fall clear down but he fell, fell, fell, fell, fell, fell,

As far as he was able. Oh it's good-by Liza Jane

 

Our goose swallowed a snail, & his eyes stuck out with wonder (2x)

For the horns grew through his tail, tail, tail, tail, tail, tail,

And bust it all asunder. Oh it's good-by Liza Jane.

 

My gal crossed the bridge, so she wouldn't get her feet wet (2x)

Well she didn't cross the bridge, but she (would 6x)

But the bridge it wasn't built yet. Oh it's good-by Liza Jane.

 

There are a couple of other Liza Janes: Liza Jane, Liza In The Summertime (or She Died On The Train) both dealing with a chorus of dead Lizas, then there's Mountain Top, I've also heard it as a fast reel, but never heard it done as well as the one Gene has above done by the Manhaden Chanteymen.

Barry"

**
3. Subject: Lyr Add: MISS LIZA, POOR GAL
From: Dale Rose
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 12:57 AM

"The whole Liza Jane family of songs could probably make a good thesis. Here is another great old Liza song~~Miss Liza, Poor Gal as done by the Tenneva Ramblers on August 4, 1927. If the date sounds familiar, it is because that was the date of the famous Bristol sessions. The Tenneva Ramblers and Jimmie Rodgers were preparing to record, but they had a disagreement over whether to call the group the Tenneva Ramblers or the Jimmie Rodgers Entertainers. I guess you could say that the Ramblers "won" that little battle, but Jimmie Rodgers went in to record by himself, and the rest, as they say, is history. This is taken from the album, The Tenneva Ramblers, Puritan 3001, released in 1972. Your chances of finding a copy are slim, but if you do find one, it is worth the effort, as it contains some fine old time songs.

Miss Liza, Poor Gal

Oh, Miss Liza, poor gal, oh, miss Liza Jane,

Oh, Miss Liza, poor gal, ?too late to catch the train?.

 

I went to see Miss Liza, Miss Liza wasn't at home,

Her old man took the broomstick and dragged it o'er my bones.

 

That's it. repeat it as many times as you feel like it. The song is primarily a fiddle/banjo piece, with instrumental breaks after every two lines. Their version repeats the first two lines four times, and the second two lines three times. As far as the too late to catch the train phrase is concerned, I am pretty certain that is not right, but even after more than 20 years of listening to the song, I still can't tell. I guess this could qualify for mistakes made while listening to songs"

**
4. Subject: RE: Goodbye Liza Jane
From: Ferrara
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 11:46 AM

"Any chance that you could be looking for the song with this chorus:

Goin' down to Cairo, goodbye, goodbye,

Goin' down to Cairo, goodbye Liza Jane.

Black them boots and make 'em shine, goodbye,goodbye.

Black them boots and make 'em shine, goodbye Liza Jane.

 

It's on the "Two by Four" album by Phil Cooper and Margaret Nelson. I don't know the fiddle tune, can't say if it's the same song. If you think it might be, I'll type it in. I'd have to look up my (handwritten) transcription, there are lots of verses."

**
5. Subject: Lyr Add: GOODBYE, LIZA JANE
From: rich r
Date: 18 Sep 97 - 11:45 PM

"Here's a couple more versions to choose from:

I.

Scraping up sand in the bottom of the sea, Shiloh, Shiloh

Scraping up sand in the bottom of the sea, Shiloh, Liza Jane

 

CHORUS: Oh how I love her, Oh Liza Jane

Oh how I love her, Goodbye Liza Jane.

 

Black those shoes and make them shine, Shiloh, Shiloh etc.

 

A hump-back mule I'm bound to ride....

 

Hopped up a chicken and he flew upstairs...

 

II.

 

Liza up in the 'simmon tree, and the possum on the ground

Possum said, "You son of a gun, shake them 'simmons down."

 

CHORUS: Whoopee Liza, pretty little girl

Whoopee, Liza Jane.

Whoopee, Liza pretty little girl

She died on the train.

 

Cheeks are like the cherries, cherries like a rose.

How I like that pretty little girl, goodness gracious knows.

 

The old folks down in the mountains, grinding sugar cane.

Making barrels of molasses, for to sweeten old Liza Jane.

 

Whiskey by the gallon, sugar by the pound,

A great big bowl to put it in and Liza to stir it round.

 

I went to see my Liza Jane, she was standing in the door

Shoes and stockings in her hand and her feet all over the floor.

 

Her head is like a coffee pot, her nose is like a spout

Her mouth is like an old fireplace with the ashes all raked out.

 

I wouldn't marry a poor girl, I'll tell you the reason why.

She'd have so many poor kinfolks, she'd make my biscuits fly.

 

The hardest work I ever done, was a-brakin' on a train.

The easiest work I ever done, was huggin' little Liza Jane

 

The second version is from the singing of Bradley Kincaid. He was a professional entertainer who did mostly traditional based songs. He spent some time on the National Barn Dance and the Grand Ole Opry. This version is a blend of "Liza Jane" and "Possum Up a 'Simmon Tree" which were both minstrel songs. Note that many of the verses are not unique to "Liza Jane" but show up in versions of "Cindy" and "old Joe Clark". The second verse bears a resemblance to "Colorado Trail", and the fourth verse is similar to one in "Mary Anne". In the 1880's Eddie Cox, a minstrel show performer, published "Good-bye, Liza Jane" however he didn't claim any credit for writing it, just arranging it. In 1903 the Tin Pan Alley composer, Harry von Tilzer, published "Good-Bye, Eliza Jane" which was a different song altogether. In 1917 Cecil Sharp collected "Liza Anne" in Kentucky that also seems to blend Liza and the Piossum. Another version called "Liza Jane" was published in 1931 by Jean Thomas in a book "Devil's Ditties"

rich r"

**
6. Subject: Lyr Add: GOING DOWN TO CAIRO
From: Ferrara
Date: 20 Sep 97 - 03:15 PM

"OK, here's the version from Phil Cooper and Margaret Nelson.

GOING DOWN TO CAIRO

 

CHORUS:

Goin' down to Cairo (goodbye, goodbye)

Goin' down to Cairo (goodbye, Liza Jane)

Black them boots and make 'em shine, goodbye,goodbye

Black them boots and make 'em shine, goodbye, Liza Jane

 

1. Oh, how I love you, and ain't it a shame

Oh, how I love you (goodbye, Liza Jane)

Got no time to kiss you now, I'm sorry, sorry

Got no time to kiss you now, I'm sorry, Liza Jane.

(CHORUS)

 

2.She went up the new-made road, I went down the lane

Hung my foot on a hollow stump 'n out jumped Liza Jane

It's a rough old road and a sorry team,goodbye,goodbye

Rough old road and a sorry team, goodbye, Liza Jane

(CHORUS)

 

3. Saddle up the yellow mule, curry down his mane

Throw the bridle over his head, Let's go see Liza Jane

Got an old hat and it's got no rim(goodbye, goodbye)

Got an old hat and it's got no rim (goodbye Liza Jane)

(CHORUS)

 

4. Oh, I'm goin' to leave you (goodbye, goodbye)

Oh, I'm going to leave you (goodbye, Liza Jane)

But I'll be yours if you'll be mine (goodbye,goodbye)

I'll be yours if you'll be mine (goodbye, Liza Jane)

(CHORUS)"

**
7. Subject: Lyr Add: CHARLESTON TOWN / GOODBYE LIZA JANE
From: Gene
Date: 08 Jan 98 - 12:13 AM

"RE: THE NEW CHRISTY MINSTRELS-TODAY LP

From the MGM presentation of ADVANCE TO THE REAR

Which has the CIVIL WAR as a framework

Background score composed by Randy Sparks

CHARLESTON TOWN (Goodbye Liza Jane)

Recorded by The New Christy Minstrels

 

Refrain

... ... ... ... Don't Cry! Don't Cry!

... ... ... ... Don't Cry! Liza Jane!

Ooh ooh ooh ooh Goodbye! Goodbye!

ooh ooh ooh ooh Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Charleston town is burning down, Goodbye! Goodbye!

Cotton balls are turnin' brown, Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Charleston town is burning down, Goodbye! Goodbye!

Cotton balls are turnin' brown, Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

I'm gonna get my musket, Don't Cry! Don't Cry!

I'm gonna get my musket, Don't Cry! Liza Jane!

 

Where'll I be in the mornin', Don't Cry! Don't Cry!

Where will I be in the mornin', Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Charleston town is burning down, Goodbye! Goodbye!

Cotton balls are turnin' brown, Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Charleston town is burning down, Goodbye! Goodbye!

Cotton balls are turnin' brown, Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Repeat Refrain

 

Who's gonna save Atlanta? Don't Cry! Don't Cry!

Who's gonna save Atlanta? Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Oh! I'm gonna ride with Beauregard, Don't Cry! Don't Cry!

I'm gonna ride with Beauregard, Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Well, I'm gonna be with General Lee, Don't Cry! Don't Cry!

Fancy me with Robert E. Lee, Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

When will I ever kiss your lips again? Don't Cry! Don't Cry!

Will I ever kiss your lips again? Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

I'm gonna get my musket, Don't Cry! Don't Cry!

I'm gonna get my musket, Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Where will you be, my lover? Don't Cry! Don't Cry!

Where'll you be, my lover? Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Charleston town is burning down, Goodbye! Goodbye!

Cotton balls are turnin' brown, Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Charleston town is burning down, Goodbye! Goodbye!

Cotton balls are turnin' brown, Goodbye! Liza Jane!

 

Goodbye! Liza Jane! It's Goodbye! Little Liza Jane.

 

COLUMBIA RECORDS CL-2150/CS-8959"

**
8. Subject: Lyr Add: GOOD BYE ELIZA JANE (Sterling, Von Tilzer
From: Dale Rose
Date: 05 May 99 - 05:22 PM

"It was interesting to me that you renewed this thread, since just yesterday I was looking at the sheet music, and thinking I should post the original lyrics. You stirred me into action, so here they are. Charlie, of course, had his own way of doing them!

 

Good Bye Eliza Jane

Words by Andrew B. Sterling, Music by Harry Von Tilzer, 1903.

 

Look a' here, Liza, listen to me;

You ain't the gal you promised to be;

Didn't you say you always would be true, oo, oo, oo, oo?

You went a driving with Mister Brown;

Now I'm the laughing stock of the town;

Folks say that I was crazy to trust you, oo, oo, oo, oo.

Throw up my hands babe, I'se gwine to go;

Can't stand the blow; I loved you so;

I was the good thing while I had the "dough"

Now I must whisper low:

 

Chorus:

"Good bye, Eliza Jane, I'm gwine a' for to leave you!

Well, you'll know when I go,

that I was the fellow with the "dough, dough, dough;"

so I'm gwine for to sing a little song,

And travel a long, just travel a long

Wish you good day, Babe, I'm on my way, Good bye Eliza Jane."

 

Look a' here, Liza, take off those rings;

Dig in that trunk, gal; hand me those things;

I'm gwine to take the clothes I paid for, too, oo, oo, oo, oo!

Cough up that old gold watch, and de chain;

Wants that umbrella, cause it might rain;

Ask Mister Brown to fix you up all new, oo, oo, oo, oo.

Rent time is here, babe; landlord today;

I'll be away; who's gwine to pay?

P'r'aps Mister Brown will if he's a jay,

Once more to you I say:

Chorus

 

If you want to see the sheet music, just go to Good Bye, Eliza Jane at the Duke site."

 **
9. Subject: Lyr Add: MISS LIZA POOR GAL
From: emily rain
Date: 05 May 99 - 09:32 PM

"man, oh man, it's a liza jane festival!

here are the words i know to miss liza poor gal:

 

MISS LIZA POOR GAL

went up in the mountains

i gave my horn a blow

thought i heard miss liza say

yonder comes my beau

 

oh miss liza po' gal

oh miss liza jane

oh miss liza po' gal

ridin' on that train

 

first time i saw liza

was standin' by my door

shoes and stockings in her hand

bare feet on the floor

 

asked her if she loved me

she said she loved me some

put her arms around me

lord, i thought my time had come

 

hardest work i ever done

was workin' on the farm

easiest work i ever done

was in my true love's arms

 

hitched up dick and dinah

hitched 'em to that train

pulled a big load o' molasses

i'm gonna sweeten up liza jane

 

whiskey by the barrel (etc.)

 

liza has a fella

her fella's name is clyde

when he goes to church on sunday

miss liza's by his side

 

i know she loves her fella

but that don't bother me

'cause there aint nothin' two can do

won't be better with three

 

ridin' on a steamboat

ridin' on a train

if i ever marry

i'm gonna marry miss liza jane"

**
10. Subject: Lyr Add: GOODBYE LIZA JANE (Eddie Fox)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 02:01 PM

"GOODBYE LIZA JANE

Eddie Fox, 1871, pub. Lee & Weller

 

1. The time has come and I must go,

I must play on the old banjo.

Walk Dad Lew, Oh Mister Lew,

Ehe! Ehe! He!

Hear me now-

Chorus:

I'm going away to leave you, goodbye, goodbye,

I'm going away to leave you, goodbye Liza Jane.

I'm going away to leave you,

I'm going down to Lynchburg town;

If you get there before I do,

It's goodbye, Liza Jane.

 

2. The time has come, I do declare

I want a lock of my girl's hair.

Walk Dad Lew, Oh Mister Lew,

Ehe! Ehe! He!

Hear me now-

Chorus:

Behind the henhouse on my knees,

I thought I heard a chicken sneeze.

Walk Dad Lew, Oh Mister Lew,

Ehe! Ehe! He!

Hear me now-

Chorus:

"Twas nothing but a Rooster saying his prayers,

And giving out a hymn Such a getting upstairs.

Walk Dad Lew, Oh Mister Lew,

Ehe! Ehe! He!

Hear me now-

Chorus:

 

This is one of the oldest versions that we have a date for. The song is older; perhaps versions are preserved in old minstrel song booklets. Rich r mentions this song in a previous posting, but with the name mis-typed Cox. On the cover, it is listed as "Comic song, by Eddie Fox, as sung by Lew Simmons at the Arch Street Opera House." Like several other similar tunes, its origin usually is credited to minstrel shows, but probably based on old fiddle and play party songs."

**
11. Subject: RE: Goodbye Liza Jane
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 10:28 PM

"Gwine down by the pars'nage,

Now Liza you keep cool;

I hasn't got time to squeeze you,

I'se busy wid dis mule.

 

Cho.:

Whoa, mule, whoa,

Whoa, mule, I say;

Keep your seat Miss Liza Jane,

An' hang to dat sleigh.

 

De mule he jumped to one side,

De sleigh she went kerflap,

Broke my new suspenders,

She fell on my lap.

(from Alabama)

 

When I went to see Miss Liza Jane,

She was standin' in the door,

With shoes and stockin's in her hands

And feet all over the floor.

(from Tenn.)

As I went down de new cut road, she went down de lane.

Was the last time I saw my true love so go 'long, Liza Jane.

Go 'long, Liza Jane, go 'long, Liza Jane.

 

She went up the new cut road, I went down the lane,

Threw my hat in the corner of the fence,

Good-by, Liza Jane.

(Al)

 

Good-bye, Miss Eliza Jane,

I'm gwine to leab you;

Don't care, Miss Eliza Jane,

If it do grieb you.

Good-bye, Miss Eliza Jane, good-bye etc.

 

Go 'long, go 'long, go 'long, Liza Jane (3 times)

She died on the train.

N. C.

 

These scattered verses from Newman L. White, American Negro Folk Songs.

 

Juba dis and Juba dat,

Juba shoot and kill a yellow cat,

Juba up and Juba down,

Juba shoot and missed the ground.

 

Cindy went to meetin',

She shouted and she squeeled;

She got so much religion

She broke her stockin' heel

 

I went up to the mountain

For to get a load of cane

To make a jug of 'lasses

Sweeter 'n Liza Jane.

 

Get along home, Cindy, Cindy (twice)

Fare you well.

(mixture of two songs)

 

My ole missus promised me

When she died she'd set me free.

She lived so long That her head got ball,

And the Lord couldn't kill her with a hickory mall.

 

(more floating verses from White)"

**
12. Subject: Lyr Add: GOODBYE, SUSAN JANE (Randolph, 1940)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:02 PM

"From Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 3, 435B, Liza Jane.

GOODBYE, SUSAN JANE

I went to see my Susan Jane, she met me at the door,

She told me that I needn't come to see her any more;

She fell in love with Rufus Andrew Jackson Paime,

I looked her in the face and said goodbye Susan Jane.

 

Oh Susan quit your foolin', and give my love to me,

Oh give me back my heart again, and I will let you be,

I once did love you dearly, I cannot love again,

I'm going away to leave you now, so goodbye Susan Jane.

 

Her mouth was like a cellar, her foot was like a ham,

Her eyes were like an owl's at night, her voice was never calm,

Her hair was long and curly, she looked just like a crane,

I bid goodbye to all my love, so goodbye, Susan Jane.

 

Oh Susan, so deceiving, she'll never do to trust,

I threatened once to leave her, and leave her now I must,

I never will trust another, to cause me any pain,

I trusted her, and all the girls are just like Susan Jane.

 

Mrs. Joseph Pointer, MO, 1940.

 

Lyr. Add: LIZA JANE (MOUNTAIN TOP)

I'll go up on the mountain top,

And plant me a patch of cane,

I'll make me a jug of molasses,

For to sweeeten little Liza Jane.

 

Refrain:

O po' Liza, po' gal,

O po' Liza Jane,

O po' Liza, po' gal,

She died on the train.

 

I'll go up on the mountain top,

Put up my moonshine still,

I'll make you a quart of old moonshine,

For just one dollar bill.

 

Head is like a coffee pot,

Nose is like a spout,

Her mouth is like an old fire-place,

With the ashes all raked out.

 

I went to see my Liza Jane,

She was standing in the door,

Her shoes and stockings in her hand,

And her feet all over the floor.

 

The hardest work that ever I did,

Was a-brakin' on the train,

The easiest work that ever I did,

Was a-huggin' little Liza Jane.

 

With score. Some of the verses in these songs have been used since early minstrel days.

Carl Sandburg, 1927, "The American Songbag," pp. 132-133. Source not stated."

****
LINKS FOR OTHER EXAMPLES OF "LITTLE LIZA JANE" ON MUDCAT FOLK MUSIC DISCUSSION FORUM

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2777
Subject: RE: Goodbye Liza Jane
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 10:09 PM

"In American Memory, link in a posting above, there is a note under the fiddle tune "Greasy String" about "Liza Jane" and all of her relatives that is worth repeating. The author, at the Library of Congress, says: "'Greasy String' is known by that title in versions scattered across southwestern Virginia and West Virginia but under other titles the tune has turned up ... from Virginia to Texas and Missouri." Several sources are cited, with these alternate titles: Seneca Square Dance, Old Raccoon, Running From The Federals, Hell among the Yearlin's, Racoon's Tail, Coon Dog, Heel Flies, Rock Along John to Kansas, Get Away From the Federals, or Fall of Paris, Shoot the Turkey Buzzard, Dinah and LIZA JANE. "It is but a small step to a yet wider circle of related tunes such as the 'Liza Jane' of Southern Piedmont, minstrel stage and jazz band circulation, or another tune....called'Dinah.' In short, the tune is cut of a cloth so common in the Upper South, and in musical domains touched by the influence of the Upper South, that it could be described as a paradigmatic Southern tune, appearing in so many related versions, allied forms and modified guises that it almost defies genetic tracing."

 

In his note on LIZA JANE, Vance Randolph (pp. 183-185, v. 3) says " This song has some lines in common with the "Old Joe Clark" play-party song ... and is related to the "Goodbye LIza Jane" ...."He gives three versions, including "Goodbye Susan Jane" (posted by rich r in thread 18221): Susan Jane .

 

The Traditional Ballad Index, in its notes on LIZA JANE, cross-references to "Molly and Tenbrooks," "Run, Mollie, Run," "Push Boat," and to floating lyrics in "Cindy." Alternate titles given are "Goodbye Liza Jane," Saro Jane," and "Little Saro Jane."

In notes on "Black Them Boots (Goin' Down to Cairo)" cross-reference is made to "Goodbye Liza Jane" and other Liza Jane songs. This one in this thread.

 

A case for two sub-groups, "Liza Jane" and Goodbye Liza Jane" could be made, but verses are so intermixed that it is difficult to do so.

 

In various threads, there are other related songs. Thread 25438 https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=25438: Charlotte "Charleston (Charlotte) is Burning," a version by Randy Sparks and the New Christie Minstrels, allied to Goodbye Liza Jane, also this thread.

"Shiloh" is mentioned in thread 892: Shiloh https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=892

"Pig in a Pen," thread 6059: Pig Pen https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=6059

"Eliza Jane- Oh Miss Liza, 446: Eliza https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=446

"Oh Eliza, Little Liza Jane": thread 152: Eliza and this thread. https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=152

"Susan Jane" thread 18221: Susan Jane https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=18221

 
Also see the thread on Limber Jim. Limber https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=48893

Any More??"
-snip-
I added the hyperlinks to the discussion threads that is mentioned in that comment.

****
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