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Monday, October 31, 2022

"Jumbie Jamboree" ("Zombie Jamboree"; "Back To Back, Belly To Belly") YouTube examples, information, lyrics, & comments



Grovetownyute74, March 10, 2013
-snip-
This version of "Jumbie Jamboree" was released in 1962

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Edited by Azizi Powell

This pancocojams post showcases two sound files of the song "Jumbie Jamboree" or "Zombie Jamboree" (also known as "Back to Back, Belly to Belly".

Information about the song "Jumbie Jamboree" ("Zombie Jamboree") is also included in this post.

This post also includes the lyrics to "Jumbie Jamboree" as sung by 
Laurel Aitken and the  lyrics of this song by The Wailers (also given as the Skatalites/Wailers").

This pancocojams post also includes a few comments about this song from the discussion threads of several YouTube sound files of "Jumbie Jamboree" ("Zombie Jamboree".) 

The content of this post is presented for cultural and entertainment purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to  Conrad Eugene Mauge, Jr. (Lord Intruder), the composer of "Jumbie Jamboree" and thanks to all the performing artists who are showcased in this post. Thanks also to all those who are quoted in this post.

-snip-
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2015/10/seven-examples-of-jumbie-jamboree-also.html for a 2015 pancocojams post entitled Seven Examples Of "Jumbie Jamboree" (also known as "Zombie Jamboree" & "Back To Back, Belly To Belly")

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SHOWCASE YOUTUBE EXAMPLE #2: Jumbee Jamboree


Laurel Atkins, September 4, 2020

℗ 1965 Pressure Drop/Cherry Red Records

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INFORMATION ABOUT THE SONG "JUMBIE JAMBOREE"
From  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumbie_Jamberee
"Jumbie Jamberee" is a calypso song credited to Conrad Eugene Mauge, Jr.[1] In 1953 Lord Intruder released the song as the B-side to "Disaster With Police".[2] The song is also known as "Zombie Jamboree" and "Back to Back". In the introduction to the Kingston Trio's version "Lord Invader and his Twelve Penetrators" are incorrectly credited with the song instead of Lord Intruder.

The oldest versions of the song refer to a jumbee jamboree. Jumbies are evil spirits who were thought to cause wild dancing in their victims. The song's references to Carnival also suggest a connection to the Moko jumbie, a protecting spirit figure represented during Carnival on Trinidad by stilt walkers and dancers. The switch to "Zombie Jamboree" occurred very early with King Flash's version with those lyrics coming out in 1956, only three years after "Jumbie Jamboree" first appeared."...
-snip-
I added italics to highlight the fact that in Caribbean culture "jumbies" are quite different from "zombies". In contrast, a "zombie" is a corpse that has been reanimated, especially by means of a supernatural power or spell.

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SONG LYRICS: JUMBIE JAMBOREE
(as sung by Laurel Aitken)

Oh what a jumbie jamboree took place in a Kingston cemetry
Oh what a jumbie jamboree took place in a Kingston cemetry
Jumbies from up north of the island
Some of them are great calypsonians
Since the season was carnival
They ska together in Bakanal
And what they singing
And what they singing

Back to back, belly to belly. I dont care a damn
I dun dead already
Back to back, belly to belly that a jumbie jamboree

One female jumbie wouldn't behave
Look how she jumping on the grave
In one hand'e holding a qwart of rum
The next hand shes beating congo drum
The lead singer starts to make his rhyme
while othe jambies rock their bones in time
One bystander started to say
It was a sight to see jumbie break away

And what they singing

Back to back...

Left to right things was getting sweet
A bystander mash a jumbie feet
One jumbie raise his finger to one
He said mister take care you mashing me corn
The funniest thing I have ever seen
To see jumbie eating salt fish and ackee
I never see more marpy or gingerbeer
That took place at a jumbie parade last year

What they singing

Back to back...


Source: http://www.ska-talk.org/forum/index.php?topic=12714.0;wap2

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SOME COMMENTS ABOUT THIS SONG FROM SEVERAL YOUTUBE DISCUSSION THREADS
The sources for these comments are given in no particular order. The comments are numbered for referencing purposes only.

YOUTUBE DISCUSSION THREAD SOURCE #1 
From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFytKAzLDlE  Peter Tosh - Jumbie Jamboree, published by nina lolitax, May 23, 2014 Peter Tosh (1944 - 1987)


**
2. diego hiraldo, 2019
"Lyrics please"

**
Reply
3. Charlie Parker, 2019
"Oh what a jumbie jamboree to take place in the palace x2

They nearly mash up the theater

Because electricity had a failure

But when the hooligans them start to shout he said people?? I'll make them shut up their mouth

Everybody go why yo why why why yo and I hope you come out?

Some slip some may run some may duck some may fly

Some lick even more some lick up the eye

Grab a piece of broad board oh grab a piece of broad board oh grab a piece of broad board and cover me head

Yes sir me glad you come out deh

Woah yo me glad you come out deh

Yes sir me glad you come out deh

(Repeat entire thing)

 

That's the best I can make out the lyrics. Hope they help"

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YOUTUBE DISCUSSION THREAD SOURCE #2

From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzukOqoQ5Y "Lord Jellicoe & His Calypso Monarchs - Zombie Jamboree" published by Steve, Nov. 9, 2009

1. W
arren Anderson, 2014
"I like this better than the Harry Belafonte version."

**
Reply
2. Battle Of Trenton, 2021
"Belafonte's version falls apart in later verses discussing unrelated topics of Bridget Bardot and nuclear war."

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3. M. H. Nude, 2016
"This is THE version for sure/  This is what Lord Jellicoe and his Monarchs sang at the Jamaican hotels for the tourists.  Anyone know what the lyrics are in the verse that goes, "The funniest thing I ever did see, a zombie  ____ salt fish without a key(?) ."  I got the rest but I can't make that one out// Oh,oh, this recording was cut short and is incomplete.  too bad.

**
Reply
4. AmbassadorsOfSorrow, 2016
"@ M H Nude -- it's "a zombie nyam a salt fish without ackee" -- Ackee & salt fish is a Jamaican dish -- 'nyam' means 'eat' X"
-snip-
 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nyam#Etymology has an entry for the word nyam under the section for the etymology of that Jamaican Creole word. 
That entry begins by stating that that Jamaican Creole word is "Borrowed from Wolof nyam, nyami, nyamnyam (“food; to eat”), or from Fula nyama, nyami, nyamgo (“to eat”). Possibly via Ghanaian Pidgin English."

That entry then notes that "Many other West African languages use similar terms for "flesh" or "meat", such as: Chichewa nyama, Efik unam, Esimbi ɛnyimi, Hausa nama, Lingala nyama, Swahili nyama, and Zulu inyama. Also compare Hausa nyamnyam, yamyam (“cannibal”) and Luba-Kasai nyama (“animal”)."

The word "West" in that wiktionary.org sentence is (hopefully) a typographical error since - except for Efik and Hausa and possibly Esimbi*- the other languages that are listed in that sentence aren't from West Africa. ( *I don't know where Esimbi is spoken). Excluding those languages, that sentence would be correct if it indicated that "Many other African languages use similar terms for "flesh: or "meat".

Here's the geographical locations for those other languages that are included in that passage:
Chichewa is from Southern, Southeast and East Africa, Lingala is from Central Africa, Swahilis is from East Africa and Central Africa, Zulu is from South Africa, and Luba-Kasai is from Central Africa. 
  

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YOUTUBE DISCUSSION THREAD SOURCE #3

From  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RixHMMTM0dQ   Harry Belafonte - Zombie Jamboree (Back to Back), published by Jose Alfonso Del Rio

1. TheJonaco, 2019
"I just heard the Kingston Trio's live recording of this calypso classic (1959). I believe Belafonte recorded it a couple of years later. The Trio's version was very funny, but Belafonte- ever the peacenik- added a little message at the end. Still, both honored the calypsonian tradition by making up new words on the spot. It was Rockapella who introduced me to this song years later on "Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego"- the best kids' quiz show ever."

**
Reply
2. Tawananyasha Mutekwe, 2021
"The original version was by Trinidadian calypsonian Lord Intruder who also wrote it. Belafonte just like The Kingstone Trio adapted it as cruise-ship calypso."

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3. Jacob Short, 2021
"Back in the early 1990s I was a teenager watching Where In The World Is Carmen San Diego? And the music for this children's gameshow was provided by the  acapella group Rockapella. They sang this song and provided their own vocal musical accompaniment. They changed the words just a little: Back to back, belly to belly. I don't give a damn 'cause I'm stone-dead alread-eee!!! Back to back, belly to belly, it's a zombie jamboree!"

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Visitor comments are welcome.


Sunday, October 30, 2022

The Changing Population Of Black Americans In The United States & The Changing Definitions Of Who Is African American

Edited by Azizi Powell

This pancocojams post presents six online excerpts about the changing population of Black Americans and the changing definitions of who is "African American".

The content of this post is presented for socio-cultural and historical purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.
-snip-
Click https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-2020-us-census-bureaus-switch-from.html for a closely related pancocojams post entitled "
The 2020 U.S. Census Bureau's Switch from The Terms "Race-Hispanic" Or "Race-Non-Hispanic" To "Race" Or "Race Alone" Reflects This Nation's Diversity".

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EXCERPT #1
From https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-changing-definition-of-african-american-4905887/ The Changing Definition of African-American

How the great influx of people from Africa and the Caribbean since 1965 is challenging what it means to be African-American

by Ira Berlin, February 2010
"Some years ago, I was interviewed on public radio about the meaning of the Emancipation Proclamation. I addressed the familiar themes of the origins of that great document: the changing nature of the Civil War, the Union army’s growing dependence on black labor, the intensifying opposition to slavery in the North and the interplay of military necessity and abolitionist idealism. I recalled the longstanding debate over the role of Abraham Lincoln, the Radicals in Congress, abolitionists in the North, the Union army in the field and slaves on the plantations of the South in the destruction of slavery and in the authorship of legal freedom. And I stated my long-held position that slaves played a critical role in securing their own freedom. The controversy over what was sometimes called “self-emancipation” had generated great heat among historians, and it still had life.

As I left the broadcast booth, a knot of black men and women—most of them technicians at the station—were talking about emancipation and its meaning. Once I was drawn into their discussion, I was surprised to learn that no one in the group was descended from anyone who had been freed by the proclamation or any other Civil War measure. Two had been born in Haiti, one in Jamaica, one in Britain, two in Ghana, and one, I believe, in Somalia. Others may have been the children of immigrants. While they seemed impressed—but not surprised—that slaves had played a part in breaking their own chains, and were interested in the events that had brought Lincoln to his decision during the summer of 1862, they insisted it had nothing to do with them. Simply put, it was not their history.

[…]

In 1965, Congress passed the Voting Rights Act, which became a critical marker in African-American history. Given opportunity, black Americans voted and stood for office in numbers not seen since the collapse of Reconstruction almost 100 years earlier. They soon occupied positions that had been the exclusive preserve of white men for more than half a century. By the beginning of the 21st century, black men and women had taken seats in the United States Senate and House of Representatives, as well as in state houses and municipalities throughout the nation. In 2009, a black man assumed the presidency of the United States. African-American life had been transformed.

Within months of passing the Voting Rights Act, Congress passed a new immigration law, replacing the Johnson-Reed Act of 1924, which had favored the admission of northern Europeans, with the Immigration and Nationality Act. The new law scrapped the rule of national origins and enshrined a first-come, first-served principle that made allowances for the recruitment of needed skills and the unification of divided families.

This was a radical change in policy, but few people expected it to have much practical effect. It “is not a revolutionary bill,” President Lyndon Johnson intoned. “It does not affect the lives of millions. It will not reshape the structure of our daily lives.”

But it has had a profound impact on American life. At the time it was passed, the foreign-born proportion of the American population had fallen to historic lows—about 5 percent—in large measure because of the old immigration restrictions. Not since the 1830s had the foreign-born made up such a tiny proportion of the American people. By 1965, the United States was no longer a nation of immigrants.

During the next four decades, forces set in motion by the Immigration and Nationality Act changed that. The number of immigrants entering the United States legally rose sharply, from some 3.3 million in the 1960s to 4.5 million in the 1970s. During the 1980s, a record 7.3 million people of foreign birth came legally to the United States to live. In the last third of the 20th century, America’s legally recognized foreign-born population tripled in size, equal to more than one American in ten. By the beginning of the 21st century, the United States was accepting foreign-born people at rates higher than at any time since the 1850s. The number of illegal immigrants added yet more to the total, as the United States was transformed into an immigrant society once again.

Black America was similarly transformed. Before 1965, black people of foreign birth residing in the United States were nearly invisible. According to the 1960 census, their percentage of the population was to the right of the decimal point. But after 1965, men and women of African descent entered the United States in ever-increasing numbers. During the 1990s, some 900,000 black immigrants came from the Caribbean; another 400,000 came from Africa; still others came from Europe and the Pacific rim. By the beginning of the 21st century, more people had come from Africa to live in the United States than during the centuries of the slave trade. At that point, nearly one in ten black Americans was an immigrant or the child of an immigrant.

African-American society has begun to reflect this change. In New York, the Roman Catholic diocese has added masses in Ashanti and Fante, while black men and women from various Carib­bean islands march in the West Indian-American Carnival and the Dominican Day Parade. In Chicago, Cameroonians celebrate their nation’s independence day, while the DuSable Museum of African American History hosts a Nigerian Festival. Black immigrants have joined groups such as the Egbe Omo Yoruba (National Association of Yoruba Descendants in North America), the Association des Sénégalais d’Amérique and the Fédération des Associations Régionales Haïtiennes à l’Étranger rather than the NAACP or the Urban League.

To many of these men and women, Juneteenth celebrations—the commemoration of the end of slavery in the United States—are at best an afterthought. The new arrivals frequently echo the words of the men and women I met outside the radio broadcast booth. Some have struggled over the very appellation “African-American,” either shunning it—declaring themselves, for instance, Jamaican-Amer­icans or Nigerian-Americans—or denying native black Americans’ claim to it on the ground that most of them had never been to Africa. At the same time, some old-time black residents refuse to recognize the new arrivals as true African-Americans. “I am African and I am an American citizen; am I not African-American?” a dark-skinned, Ethiopian-born Abdulaziz Kamus asked at a community meeting in suburban Maryland in 2004. To his surprise and dismay, the overwhelmingly black audience responded no. Such discord over the meaning of the African-American experience and who is (and isn’t) part of it is not new, but of late has grown more intense.

[…]

New circumstances, it seems, require a new narrative. But it need not—and should not—deny or contradict the slavery-to-freedom story. As the more recent arrivals add their own chapters, the themes derived from these various migrations, both forced and free, grow in significance. They allow us to see the African-American experience afresh and sharpen our awareness that African-American history is, in the end, of one piece."

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EXCERPT #2
From https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/21/black-history-african-american-definition/1002344001/ Who is an ‘African American’? Definition evolves as USA does

Tracy Scott Forson, updated Feb 22, 2018
"There was a time when being black in America meant you were most likely descended from one or more enslaved Africans who had survived the trans-Atlantic slave trade. However, as the number of African and Caribbean blacks immigrating to the USA has increased, so have the chances that someone who identifies as black or African American is a first- or second-generation immigrant.

According to the Pew Research Center, the number of African immigrants in the USA has risen about 2,500% since 1970 — from 80,000 in 1970 to about 2.1 million in 2015. That number increases to 3.8 million black immigrants when those from Caribbean nations are counted, according to 2013 data.

The influx of foreign-born blacks has energized the debate about what “African American” means today. Does that category include people like the model Iman and the singer Rihanna — born in Somalia and Barbados, respectively — or can only those whose family trees were violently uprooted and replanted on U.S. soil hundreds of years ago claim that designation?

At the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture, exhibits are inclusive, representing the wide range of “Americans of African descent affected by the historical American experience,” said Ariana Curtis, the museum’s curator for Latino history and studies. “We understand that the African-American experience in the United States is diverse.”

While many black immigrants embrace the African-American label and culture, not all are quick to jump into a melting pot that might dilute their distinct cultures.

Eliza Thompson arrived in the USA as a child and identifies as Ghanaian. She prefers to think of the country as a salad bowl rather than a melting pot. “The lettuce is still the lettuce,” Thompson says. “Mixed together, the lettuce, carrots and tomatoes all work. In the melting pot, you lose your identity.”

 [...]

There can also be a reluctance to identify as African American because of negative stereotypes of U.S.-born blacks, says Wayne Fairweather, a Jamaican-American who emigrated as a teen. ... when he was exposed to stereotypes of U.S.-born blacks, he tended to believe them....

 However, many foreign-born blacks come to recognize the effects of institutional racism, he says. “People joke about Jamaicans having multiple jobs, but after working and working and not getting ahead, you start to realize what racism is and how it affects you,” he says.

Joanne Hyppolite, a curator at the Smithsonian museum who was born in Haiti, says: “Black immigrants come here, and they’re introduced to American race relations. You begin to see a shift in perspective in their own understanding of how race works in America.” ...

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EXCERPT #3
From https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/03/25/the-growing-diversity-of-black-america/ The Growing Diversity of Black America, by Christine Tamir, March 25, 2021

46.8 million people in the U.S. identify as Black
"Terminology

The Black population of the United States is diverse. Its members have varied histories in the nation – many are descendants of enslaved people, while others are recently arrived immigrants. The Black population also has nuanced ethnic and racial identities reflecting intermarriage and international migration. As a result, there are key distinctions in demographic and economic characteristics between different parts of the national Black population, highlighting its diverse multitude of backgrounds.

The U.S. Black population is also growing. In 2019, 46.8 million people in the U.S. identified their race as Black, either alone or as part of a multiracial or ethnic background. That is up from 36.2 million in 2000.1 The Black share of the U.S. population is higher today than in 2000 as well. About 14% of the national population said they were Black in 2019, up from 13% who did so in 2000.

At the same time, the Black population’s racial self-identification is changing. Among those who self-identify as “Black or African American,” the share who say it is their only racial or ethnic identification has declined over the past two decades. In 2019, 40.7 million, or 87%, identified their race as Black alone and their ethnicity as non-Hispanic, while around 3.7 million, or 8%, indicated their race was Black and another race (most often White) and not Hispanic. Another 2.4 million, or 5%, self-identified as both Black and Hispanic, or Black Hispanic.2But these shares have changed since 2000. Then, 93% identified their race and ethnicity as Black alone.

The nation’s Black population is changing in other ways too. A growing share are foreign born, the population is aging (though some segments are significantly younger), and a growing share are college graduates. These trends and more are explored in this report…

Measuring racial and ethnic identity

Racial identity – as measured by the U.S. decennial census – has changed over time. The census has drastically changed since its first administration in 1790. Then, only two racial categories were included: free (which mostly included White people) and slaves (who were mostly enslaved Black people). The Census Bureau has modified terms used to refer to people of non-White racial identities throughout the years, in accordance with the politics and sensibilities of the times. For example, in the 2020 census, those who selected “Black or African American” as their race were asked to write more about their origins, reflecting a more nuanced understanding of Black racial identity. (For more about how racial and ethnic categories have changed over time, see “What Census Calls Us.”)

Today, decennial census and American Community Survey data is collected in a different manner than for most of the nation’s history. Respondents choose their racial response categories themselves. This was not true for over a century of censuses. Prior to 1960, one’s racial identification was selected by a census-taker – a Census Bureau employee who administered the survey on paper and chose a racial category on a person’s behalf. However, starting that year, some respondents could self-identify, or chose their own racial category. Self-identification was expanded in subsequent censuses to include virtually all respondents. Additionally, starting in 1980, census data included information from the entire population on Hispanic or Latino ethnic identity in addition to their racial identification.And the 2000 census marked the first time respondents were able to include themselves in more than one racial category; prior to that year, multiracial respondents could select only one racial category.

It’s important to note that racial and ethnic self-identification is highly personal and can change as one’s relationship with their identity changes. For example, an analysis of 168 million Americans’ census forms linked between 2000 and 2010 indicated that 10 million people identified their racial and/or ethnic background differently between the two census forms. Multiracial Americans were one of the population groups that were more likely to change their racial identification between the two decennial census years.”…

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EXCERPT #4
From  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/01/27/key-findings-about-black-immigrants-in-the-u-s/ Key findings about Black immigrants in the U.S.
by Christine Tamir, January 27, 2022
..."
One-in-ten Black people in the U.S. are immigrants. The number of Black immigrants living in the country reached 4.6 million in 2019, up from roughly 800,000 in 1980. This increase accounted for 19% of the growth in the overall Black population, which increased by 20 million during the same period. The Black immigrant population is projected to account for roughly a third of the U.S. Black population’s growth through 2060.

A sizable share of Black Americans have recent immigrant connections. In addition to the 12% of Black people who were born in a foreign country themselves, roughly 9% are second-generation Americans, meaning they were born in the U.S. and have at least one foreign-born parent. Combined, these two groups account for 21% of the overall Black population – comparable to the share among Americans overall, but lower than the share among Hispanics or Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders.

[…]

Among Black immigrants, the year of immigration differs by birth region. African-born Black immigrants stand out for their more recent arrival in the U.S.: Three-quarters immigrated in 2000 or later, with over four-in-ten (43%) arriving between 2010 and 2019 alone. Black immigrants born in other regions – the Caribbean, Central America or Mexico, or South America – came to the U.S. earlier than their African-born counterparts, on average, with majorities of all three regions arriving before 2000.

Together, these two regions accounted for 88% of all Black foreign-born people in the U.S. in 2019.

Between 2000 and 2019, the Black African immigrant population grew 246%, from about 600,000 to 2.0 million. As a result, people of African origin now make up 42% of the country’s foreign-born Black population, up from just 23% in 2000.

Still, the Caribbean remains the most common region of birth for U.S. Black immigrants. Just under half of the foreign-born Black population was born in this region (46%).

Jamaica and Haiti are the top countries of origin for Black immigrants. These two countries accounted for 31% of the U.S. Black immigrant population in 2019 (16% and 15%, respectively). But their combined share was down from 39% in 2000, highlighting the growing diversity among Black immigrants. Nigeria and Ethiopia were the next most common birthplaces for Black African immigrants in 2019, with roughly 390,000 and 260,000 immigrants, respectively."...

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EXCERPT #5
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans
"African Americans (also referred to as Black Americans and Afro-Americans*) are an ethnic group consisting of Americans with partial or total ancestry from sub-Saharan Africa.[3][4] The term "African American" generally denotes descendants of enslaved Africans who are from the United States.[5][6][7] While some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify as African-American, the majority of first generation immigrants do not, preferring to identify with their nation of origin.[8][9]

African Americans constitute the second largest racial group in the U.S. after White Americans, as well as the third largest ethnic group after Hispanic and Latino Americans.[10] Most African Americans are descendants of enslaved people within the boundaries of the present United States.[11][12] On average, African Americans are of West/Central African with some European descent; some also have Native American and other ancestry.[13]

According to U.S. Census Bureau data, African immigrants generally do not self-identify as African American. The overwhelming majority of African immigrants identify instead with their own respective ethnicities (~95%).[9] Immigrants from some Caribbean and Latin American nations and their descendants may or may not also self-identify with the term.[7]

[...] 

Terminology dispute

In her book The End of Blackness, as well as in an essay for Salon,[327] author Debra Dickerson has argued that the term Black should refer strictly to the descendants of Africans who were brought to America as slaves, and not to the sons and daughters of Black immigrants who lack that ancestry. Thus, under her definition, President Barack Obama, who is the son of a Kenyan, is not Black.[327][328] She makes the argument that grouping all people of African descent together regardless of their unique ancestral circumstances would inevitably deny the lingering effects of slavery within the American community of slave descendants, in addition to denying Black immigrants recognition of their own unique ancestral backgrounds. "Lumping us all together," Dickerson wrote, "erases the significance of slavery and continuing racism while giving the appearance of progress."[327]"...
-snip-
Contrary to what is stated in this Wikipedia page, since at least the late 1990s, "Afro-Americans" has been considered an outdated referent which has been replaced by the referent "African American".

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EXCERPT #6
From https://abcnews.go.com/US/controversial-group-ados-divides-black-americans-fight-economic/story?id=66832680 "Controversial group ADOS divides black Americans in fight for economic equality"

American Descendants of Slavery advocates are stirring debate and anger online.

By Samara Lynn, January 19, 2020
…."ADOS stands for "American Descendants of Slavery" -- a movement which some critics fear could drive a wedge between voters in the black community just months ahead of the 2020 election.

The movement, which has gained traction on social media in recent months, has attracted the attention of some academics like Cornel West and politicians like Williamson, who spoke at an event for the group in the fall, though many are loathe to associate themselves with it -- either for or against.

ADOS advocates are adding a whole new layer to the conversation on reparations and economic justice by advocating only for black descendants of slaves and not the black community as a whole.

Their advocacy leaves an entire group of people, American-born descendants of immigrants, some of whose families have been in the U.S. for generations -- many whose families may have survived decades if not centuries of institutional racism -- in limbo in the conversation. And the focus has pitted ADOS adherents against people like journalist Roland Martin, who is descended from Haitian immigrants. It also appears not to address the American descendants of slaves from other countries, including for example Haiti, and whether they should be entitled to reparations.

Disparities exist between the two populations. A 2015 Pew Research report showed that U.S.-born black people were less likely to have a bachelor’s degree than black immigrants -- 19% versus 26%.

The same report also showed that foreign-born black people have a $10,000 higher median income than U.S.-born -- at $33,500.

There are myriad theories and studies on why these gaps exist but the fact that many black immigrants are outpacing black Americans economically and educationally, compounded with the vast racial wealth gap between black and white America, adds fuel to the ADOS movement.

ADOS' singular focus on black descendants of slavery, and its supporters often combative approach, has sparked controversy and comparisons to a long line of nativist thinking that has gained traction from time to time throughout U.S. history.

There are also concerns from some critical of ADOS that the hashtag is linked to posts spreading disinformation and political division ahead of the presidential election. However, ABC News found no concrete evidence that the ADOS movement is part of the disinformation campaigns that plagued the 2016 election.

Pushback

Critics, many of them other black people, have accused ADOS advocates of spewing hateful, xenophobic rhetoric and of online harassment. High-profile black politicians, influencers and journalists, including Kamala Harris, Joy Reid, Jonathan Capehart and others, have been attacked by ADOS accounts for having non-American lineage -- Reid, for instance, has immigrant parents -- or because they have questioned the authenticity of ADOS social media profiles, accusing them of being trolls.

[…]

Yvette Carnell and Antonio Moore are the two most-followed ADOS activists on social media. They have both engaged in heated and controversial exchanges on Twitter and what some might call targeted harassment.

Some have even accused ADOS Twitter accounts of deliberately pushing a far-right narrative under the guise of reparations support.

[…]

Kamala Harris, the former presidential candidate, is of Indian and Jamaican descent. Carnell has tweeted that she has issues surrounding Harris' solidarity with black people descended from slaves.

Rapper and activist Talib Kweli is an outspoken ADOS critic. While he is also an activist for black economic empowerment and is pro-reparations, he disagrees with ADOS’ rhetoric.

“I don’t think [Carnell and Moore] are being disingenuous about wanting reparations. What I think they are being disingenuous about is the fact that they are clearly anti-black immigrant … and aligning with the GOP on immigration.”

[…]

Alvin Bernard Tillery, Jr., Ph.D, is an associate professor of political science at Northwestern University. He has written about the issue of reparations and the sources of racial inequality. Tillery began to take notice of ADOS’ web activism over the last two years or so, he said.

While Tillery said that ADOS is not really advocating any new ideas, “they’ve attracted pushback because they have the radical thesis that if there's going to be reparations for slavery, that it should really only be targeted to persons who are the descendants or legacies of actual American slaves,” said Tillery.

“The reason that we're having this debate around ADOS … is because I think this notion that we have as black people is that skin color is tantamount to unity and belonging,” he said.

Darity agrees. "Black American descendants of slavery have a distinctive ethnic identity because of our distinctive origins in the community that was enslaved in the United States," he said. That distinctive identity, he said, is a central premise of ADOS.”…
-snip-
Click https://adosfoundation.org/ for the website for the ADOS Advocacy Foundation.

**
Full Disclosure:
 I'm not a supporter of the ADOS movement. 

The ADOS organization would probably not consider me to be an "American Descendant Of Slaves" because I can't trace my ancestry to a person who was enslaved in the United States.

My light skinned Black father may have had an ancestor who was enslaved in the United States. He was long term fostered by a Black couple in Michigan and I know nothing about his biological family (and very little about his foster family). Given his skin color, it's likely that my father had one Black and one White biological parent, but there's no documentation of that.

My maternal grandparents were from Barbados and from Tobago. They came to the United States in the early 1920s and my mother was born in New Jersey in 1924. I was told that my grandmother's mother was "half Black and half White", but I don't have any documentation of that. For what it's worth, my grandfather was darker skinned than my grandmother. I don't recall them ever visiting the Caribbean, and only have a vague recollection of my grandmother cooking any Caribbean meals.

I grew up in Atlantic City, New Jersey with hardly any contact with the family who raised my father. 
I also have had no contact with the Caribbean side of my family. However, I vaguely recall stories about one Bajan aunt visiting our family when I was little. Also, my sister (who has maintained some contact with a cousin from that side of the family) told me that a few of our Bajan relatives emigrated to the United Kingdom. 

While I recognize my Caribbean roots, I don't consider myself to be West Indian. I self-identify as African American and as Black American.

****
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Visitor comments are welcome. 


Saturday, October 29, 2022

Comments About Being Afro-Mexican (from the discussion threads of three YouTube videos)



Afric Network, April 5, 2021

****
Edited by Azizi Powell

This pancocojams post showcases three YouTube videos about Afro Mexicans.

This post also presents selected comments from those videos' discussion threads about  being Afro-Mexican.

The content of this post is presented for socio-cultural purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to all those who are associated with this video and thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.

****
SELECTED COMMENTS FROM THE DISCUSSION THREAD FOR SHOWCASE VIDEO #1 

These comments are presented in chronological order except for replies. Numbers were added for referencing purposes only.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjwey3zT0NQ&t=66s

2021

1.  Jose M. Martinez Camacho
"That part where you mentioned that many people thought that Afro-Mexicanos were from Cuba etc. is soooo accurate! My mom was born in the Costa Chiqua de Guerrero, migrated to Southern California in  a city where a lot of Mexican migrants found home and, OMG, you have no idea how many people asked her if she was from Cuba just because she spoke Spanish!. Those sort of statements made me soooo confused about my identity as a kid."

**
2. Axxess Mundi
"I was just wondering why doesn't the Mexican national team have any black players with a African diaspora population of  2 million people?"

**
Reply
3. Alexander Adame toscano, 2022
"ADRIAN CHAVEZ !  African-Mexican 🌮 :  He was the Starting Goalkeeper for CLUB AMERICA from MEXICO CITY for many years . He also represented Mexico in the National Team .  African Descendants in Mexico are a very small group , even so , They have played a very fundamental role in Mexico's History . They also are very low key and peaceful . That's why They're hardly noticed . But They're very much Mexicans . I myself have Some African DNA (2.24 %) even though I'm mostly a Light skin Mexican . Greetings !"

**
4.  Antonio Aguilar
"We are blacks, morenos, browns, whites. No matter what colour you are, we are mexicans, and we will prevael, because we were blessed with this land, our homeland.

We were one of the first country which abolished slavery in América. And that was stamped in our constitution since we were a free country."

**
5.  Tono Arellano
"My Great grandpa he was muy moreno and great grandma muy guera so it’s a mix

I thin North America was Africans land and maybe who knows Jesus was black that’s why so much hate to blacks and browns  am from Mexico peace and love to everyone 🙏🙏"
-snip-
From https://www.tellmeinspanish.com/mexico/mexican-slang/guera-in-spanish/
"In Spanish, guera and its masculine form güero are informal adjectives that describe a blond person or someone with light skin. If working as nouns, they can also be used as nicknames for white people. With this meaning, ‘güera’ and ‘güero’ are mostly applied in Mexico."

"moreno" from https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/spanish-english/moreno = brown, dark skinned, dark haired (a brunette)  

**
6. Omar
"Greetings from a Costa Grande Native..!

I know there's a at least an 1/8 in there in my family on my grandpa's side... Loved his curled short, tight hair.. and that shining darker skin... And the traces continue to carry on with the newer generations.... Much love and blessings!🙏🤎🇲🇽🖤🇲🇽❤️"

**
Reply
7. The One
"Lmao same but my moms from Michoacán from the coast. Kids from school would ask me if I was mixed with black once they saw my mom 😂. I would tell them no I'm just Mexican but my moms just dark with a Mexican fro.  Then I'm asked my mom and she said yes we are mixed with black down the line. Then I took a DNA ancestry test and I'm like around 15% African southern bantu, Cameroon, and Nigerian. I look like my father more but my mom for sure must be any where from 20%-30% African."

****
2022

8. Natalia García
"im afromexican from acapulco and we are a minority, people dont get educated about black history in mexico even tho we are an important part of it, we get a lot of racism no matter if youre lightskin or darkskin people dont respect you, our same black people dont know the value that we have, our history and the importance of being toghether, we dont have that union like other countries where there are more black people like DR, Haiti, Cuba, USA, Barbados and it is very sad because every day we are less, I really wish that each one of us understood how important we are and that we dont need to "mejorar la raza" ,  some people dont even identify themselves as black, I would love for the community of black people in Mexico to grow throughout the country and have more education about it, if you are from another country and there is a way to help us please , we must do it at least by educating others that in Mexico black people exist and we are important.

Sorry if im not clear, english is not my first lenguage"

**
9. JMan Pro.
"my pops is from Guerrero and him me and my siblings often get asked if we're mixed cause of our dark skin, facial features and curly dry hair textura, I remember letting my hair grow out and sista would ask me are you light skin or can I braid your hair, or often get confused with cuban, honduran, even dominican lol but never Mexican. My great grandfather was also a tall slender real dark man as well so I'm curious to know of there's a little afro in us"

****
SHOWCASE VIDEO #2:  Afro-Mexicans: Dancing Their Way Back To Their Roots



AJ+, Dec. 6, 2016

Obatala is an Afro-Mexican dance troop that travels and performs throughout southern Mexico. The dancers learned the steps by watching YouTube videos. Through their performances, they express their pride in their African heritage and stay connected to their roots.
-snip-
Selected comments (with numbers added for referencing purposes only)

1. Mr. Mata, 2018
"All these ignorant comments hurt my brain. Not all Mexicans look the same, it is a very diverse country. Much like most of South, Central, North America and the Caribbean. Im glad they are being officially recognized. 🇲🇽"

**
Reply
2. gain gang, 2019
"True we also have Asian Mexicans"

**
Reply
3. Glimmering Sea, 2019
"The thing is if u see comments from people from Mexico in other channels, they themselves deny the existence of African descendants in Mexico. Many say they r white. Seriously check other channels."

**
Reply
4. wakeupworldhealthierauthentically100, 2019
"Mr. Mata The older native people of the so called mexico looked similar and the same overall. When Europeans whites came over and colonized raping stealing etc the newer offspring rapidly changed
 more than naturally."

**
Reply
5. Edgarez, 2019
"@Glimmering Sea  What can I say? I'm from Mexico, born and raised and unfortunately there is racism there too just like in every other country in the world."

**
Reply
6. Glimmering Sea, 2019
"@Gabe  Yes, that is true. It is sad that people from the same country deny their own people because of skin color. Racism definitely is everywhere."

**
Reply
7. Glimmering Sea, 2019
"@Edgarez  Very true."

**
Reply
8. kefren ferrer, 2019
"There's no black África n culture in México black descendants are totaly mexican  culturized,  the dances of the video are recent and not extended influencies,  maybe because of reggeton wich movements are similar."

**
Reply
9. YoSoyJuanCarlos, 2019
"Mr. Mata  you’re right"

**
Reply
10. Lola Joselin, 2019
"@kefren ferrer  kefren I am afrolatina and native it's clear that you are in deep denial!!"

**
Reply
11. Jackie Vergara, 2019
"Mr. Mata we also have colorist in our on country

When you say I’m more morelos, Mexico people tell me you don’t look like the people

🙄 there’s no specific image of what is a certain person"

**
Reply
12. Michelle G, 2019
"@kefren ferrer  wow you know nothing of mexican culture especially afromexican culture. The state of Veracruz is known for it's african influence on the state in it's music and in it's dances. Maybe learn something about my culture before you make ignorant statements."

**
Reply
13. GabeReyes, 2019
"Jackie Vergara Not all Mexicans, We’re a Multiethnic nation."

**
Reply
14.  
GabeReyes, 2019
"Pastor David J. Miner Mexico has no official race, that’s why we didn’t consider them a people, that’s why we don’t consider whites a thing, nor mestizo, everyone is just Mexican."

**
15. Adriana Ortiz, 2021
"this is very common in southern mexico bc of the puertos, when I was in hs I learned about it. The port of veracruz is mostly mulatos.. I grew up in Puerto Vallarta, I was extremely bullied while growing up bc of my skin color, idk if I have African roots but I'm really happy they're trying to learn about their ancestors..."

**
Reply
16. Jason Rinneii, 2021
"Yeah! Puerta Vallarta is in white Jalísco, Mexico"

** 
17. Daniel Torres, 2021
"It's a beautiful thing to see I'm Mexican and have 40% of African in me I'm proud of where I'm from and where I come from afromexicans are beautiful and couldn't be more proud"

****

SHOWCASE VIDEO #3: Afro-Mexicans: One of the world’s most forgotten Black communities



CGTN America,  Jul 22, 2020

As the Black Lives Matter movement spreads internationally, we’re looking today at one of the world’s most forgotten Black communities.  In Mexico, Black people make up around one percent of the population.
-snip-
Selected comments (with numbers added for referencing purposes only)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Mi92OnIy8XI&feature=emb_logo

2021

1. Pablo del Segundo
"What's sad is that the majority of Mexicans have anywhere from 5-15% African DNA, but we're fed this whitewashed myth of La Raza consisting of Spanish and Indigenous blood...Africans really are the 3rd root of our heritage whether we admit it or not.  I'm proud of it, myself."

**
Reply
2. Juan Castillo
"
Honestly I never really put them in a category like that because I have family with dark skin like that and I always considered them mexican like me and I have light skin and most mexicans think Im white."

**
Reply
3. Brie Cruz
"That’s because we are all Mexicans not like the US that puts everyone in categories"

**
Reply
4. 
ohohohitsmagic
" @Brie Cruz  except the people in this very video consider themselves Afro/Black. How are you going to blame the US for how they identify?"

**
Reply
5. Brie Cruz
"@ohohohitsmagic  yes they are Afro Mexicans but we are all Mexicans, don't get me wrong I notice their black features and I know they are different from white and indigenous Mexicans but they are Mexicans thats it! In Mexico there are asian, indigenous, white, and black races and all kinds of ethnicities but its ridiculous to name them all and divide us in categories. For what reason? why? Specially if they have lived there for generations. Its amazing they still remember their culture and embrace it. I’m not blaming the US all I’m saying is Mexico Is not like the US when it comes to putting people in categories of race/ethnicity we conciser everyone that was born in Mexico Mexican!"

**
Reply
6. ohohohitsmagic
"@Brie Cruz  no one said they weren't Mexican. Literally no one. Just like here in America, we are all Americans, we just have different backgrounds. Its the same. Mexico isn't unique in that."

** 
7. 
 ANDRES MORA
"Near the so-called Cerro Congo, in the municipality of Actopan, in the state of Veracruz, is Coyolillo, a congregation of the "Afro-Mexican race", as they call themselves. Founded in the seventeenth century, it is located about 40 kilometers from Xalapa, the capital.

Its first inhabitants were slaves who obtained their freedom and who worked in a mill called Nuestra Señora del Rosario, on the Almolonga farm.

Its carnival is unique in the entire state.

They dance with wooden masks representing animals, wearing capes, multi-colored headdresses and rustic bells.

The original dances are known to be long gone, but the "disguised" ones resemble a party called Gule Guamkulu from Mozambique, Mali, and Zambia.

Greetings from Minatitlán, Veracruz 🇲🇽"

**
8. Shauntanika Dalmida
"I remember working on my family history, o told someone my family on my fathers side is from Guatemala and Mexico and they just looked at me like I was crazy. They said I don’t look Mexican because I’m black. We need to educate ourselves and talk more about the history of black people all around the world. Before slavery and after."

**
Reply
9. L S
"I don't think there's a definite look that defines one as Mexican. I have family members who are white with colored eyes and others who are tan/dark skinned. Once we pry into our family history we will see where our ancestors came from. I'm definitely interested in finding out since a lot of Mexicans are quite mixed not only of Spanish and indigenous heritage, but a little of everything." 

**
10. Melissa
"I’m sad that growing up in Mexico I was not taught about Afro Mexican people. But now that I am grown I educate myself and I will educate the next generations to come. You are not invisible ❤️🇲🇽"

**
Reply
11. _, 2022
"Did you put attention in clases, because they teach that in fifth and sixth grade, when they teach about mexico independence and the war with Texas, and how they were protected as equal in the first constitution."

 **
12. 
Jose Luis Oropeza III
"I’m a white Mexican. My skin is white and I was born with red hair. One of my grandfather’s grandfather came from Guerrero and he was so dark I suspect he might have been a black native i.e Afro Indigenous, Afro Mexican."

**
Reply
13. Naima The Sun Goddess
"He was definitely indigenous. The term “Afro-Mexican “ is a misnomer. These ppl are indigenous to Mexico. The so called “white Mexicans” that inhabit Mexico now are the descendants of Conquistadors from Spain. If they were to actually ask any one of these black ppl especially the elders, they would most likely tell them that their ppl always inhabited that land. A lot of these ppl are indigenous Blacks  who relocated to Mexico from the American southeast escaping colonization 🙏🏽"

**
Reply
14. A sandwich
"Same, goes with my Grandpa, he is very dark."

**
Reply
15.  Francisco Garcia
"@A sandwich  bro mine too I think we got something here because I see alot of people in the comments saying the same that there grandpa or grandma was super dark. I think something's up"

**
Reply
16. Francisco Garcia
"Same bro"

**
Reply
17. A sandwich
"@Francisco Garcia  yeah somethings definitely up lol"

**
Reply
18. I N N E R B L O O M
"SAME! I’m Mexican and my nephew has green eyes and looks white but I also suspect that my paternal great-grandmother was Afro Mexican. My maternal grandma said she was so dark and her hair was very curly, and tbh my grandma, her daughter, also had similar features. It’s crazy because we no longer look black but she’s part of our genealogical tree. I truly believe there are many Mexicans like us who may have black ancestry but are unaware of it since those physical black features obviously disappeared after hundreds of years of intermixing. At this point I just wanna take a dna test to confirm it and take pride not only on my indigenous side but the African as well. Mexicans need to start acknowledging the fact that Mexico isn’t only mestizo, our country has a past with African slavery and it’s important to embrace our roots and acknowledge our ancestors no matter what race they were, after all we are here today because of them."

**
Reply
19. Sociedad Norteña
"Dude STOP putting your skin color before your Nationality literally no one does this in Latin America. Black Mexicans and white Mexicans don’t exist we are all mestizo castizo zambo but not “white” or “black” "

**
Reply
20. SIVLA
"White Mexican? 🙄 you’re Mexican"

**
21. Carlos Party Dinosaurios. 🦕🦖
..."the African history in México goes way back when the spanish first setled here in facts im native to the state of Veracruz that has the oldest history of africans here in México they where the first people to plant sugar cane fields here in México before the spanish used the indigenous people I still have afro familes from my granfathers side dark people with curly hair looking like cubans they mixed well with the natives in México please look up the history of ( Yanga in México ) he was an african prince taken as a slave"...

**
22. 
Jacquelyn Ramsey
"I have relatives in Mexico and they went there right after the Civil War. They exist and my family have never forgotten their family, there.

**
Reply
23. teresaguerrasalazar
"Yes, they went to Veracruz when mexico abolish slavery in Texas trying to stop US citizens who came non-stop settling in mexico."

**
24. david busic
"My mother was from the mountains of central Mexico(Nayarit), where a lot of silver mines are located. Having her DNA testing and finding a decent percentage of Western African DNA explained alot."

**
25. J
. ROTHCHILD
"I love my Mexican family!  Some of my uncles look like Brad Pitt and some look like Mike Tyson!  lol!   I love them all the same!!!"

**
Reply
26. TheTruthIsInfinite
"Lol brad pitt and Mike Tyson in one family gathering is a cool image.  Lol"

**
Reply
27. Alfredo Alcantar
"I agree but we don't use identity politics in Mexico like America is trying to force. My dad is dark and I'm light we're still Mexicans"

**
Reply
28.  Tiff Dang
"Do you have an uncle look like Jackie Chan? Lol"

**
Reply
29. J. ROTHCHILD
"@Tiff Dang  No, more like Bruce Lee!!"

**
Reply
30. 
Álvaro González Hernández
"@Alfredo Alcantar  this is very accurate! I love this about Mexico!"

 **
31. 
 Alvaro Valdovinos
"My father's family comes from the coastal line of Guerrero's beaches called Ixtapa. That area has tons of Afro-Mexican's mixed with the Natives Americans of that Region. I am a proud product of their combined souls."

**
32. Elizabeth diaz
"My grandma is dark skinned but her hair is straight I wished I had knew her. She suffered bullying:/"

**
33. MaryB Lopez
"Unfortunately this is so true for darker Mexicans. I’m Mexican American and I guess from the people I’m surrounded with, a lot of Hispanic people are racist to darker Mexicans. Unfortunately it’s something we inherited from the Spaniards. You see a lot of racism on older people. The younger generation is starting to get better."

**
34. Being MotherTeresa
"My Brown is beautiful ❤️ I am Afo Indian(kolkata) and my son is Afro Indian Mexican🥰😜 Proud to represent multiple races: black, Indian, and Mexican."

**
35. SB Brackelmanns
"I think that is why I am so dark and my mother always scolded me for being in the sun because she is light"

****

2022

36. Plissken94th
"The crazy thing is, you have people who are so dark that they obviously have closer ties to their African roots but will deny them at any and all costs. Like it’s a crime to be black and Hispanic rather than either or. I’ve even had friends who were black and Hispanic and chose to never acknowledge their hispanic side unless he had to speak Spanish to communicate. It’s obvious both sides of the spectrum have been taught to hate themselves"

**
37. Co Co Bunny
"My great grandfather was a  Mexican/ Indian and he looked like these people but he didn’t have any African blood and was a little more red in color . These people are beautiful 😍"

**
38. Lil Meep
"@Francisco Garcia  my dad is dark too but he  says he not black but who knows"

**
39. Roberto fun Paramo
"My grandfather is from Michoacán, and he was also afro Mexican. He’s always asked if he’s  dominicano"

****
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Friday, October 28, 2022

The Black American Sources For The Children's Song "Who Did Swallow Jonah?"



AUTHOR: unknown

EARLIEST DATE: 1899 (Barton-Old Plantation Hymns); 1893 (Dett/Fenner/Rathbun/Cleveland-Religious Folk Songs Of The Negro* - Hampton Institute) (see notes)

KEYWORDS: Bible religious humorous

FOUND IN: US(Ap,SE)

[…]

ALTERNATE TITLES:

Daniel in the Den of Lions

The Whale Did, I Know He Did

[…]

NOTES

The index to the 1893 edition [of Dett/Fenner/Rathbun/Cleveland-Religious Folk Songs Of The Negro-Hampton Institute] has "Peter on the Sea" on page 88 (Thomas P. Fenner and Frederic G. Rathbun, Cabin and Plantation Songs (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893)). I have not seen page 88. – BS"
-snip-
"Ap" = Appalachia [region of the United States]

SE"= Southeast [region of the United States]
-snip-
* The word "Negro" is no longer used as a referent for Black Americans (African Americans). The United States Census stopped using "Negro" in its 2010 report. However, many Black Americans and other people had stopped using that referent in the late 1990s if not before then.  

****
TWO LYRIC VERSIONS OF "WHO DID SWALLOW JONAH?"

These lyrics are given in no particular order and are given numbers for referencing purposes only

SONG LYRICS #1
From https://missionbibleclass.org/songs/english-songs/old-testament-songs/who-did-swallow-jonah-song/
"VERSE 1

Who did, who did, who did, who did
Who did swallow Jo, Jo, Jonah?
Who did, who did, who did, who did
Who did swallow Jo, Jo, Jonah?
Who did, who did, who did, who did
Who did swallow Jo, Jo, Jonah?
Who did swallow Jonah, up?

VERSE 2

Fish did, fish did, fish did, fish did
Fish did swallow Jo, Jo, Jonah
Fish did, fish did, fish did, fish did
Fish did swallow Jo, Jo, Jonah
Fish did, fish did, fish did, fish did
Fish did swallow Jo, Jo, Jonah
Fish did swallow Jonah, up!

ADDITIONAL VERSE:

Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel
Daniel in the li, li, li,li
Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel
Daniel in the li, li, li, li
Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel
Daniel in the li, li, li, li
Daniel in the lions den"
-snip-
This versions confirms with the earliest documented versions of this song which have the words "the fish did" and not "the whale did". However, the words "the whale did" are used in most contemporary versions of this song because they conform with the Biblical story of Jonah and the whale. Also, it appears that most contemporary versions of this song that I've come across have the words "Who did swallow Jonah down (instead of the word "up" as it is found in this mission bible class version.) 

I haven't read or heard the earliest versions of this song [as given in the fresnostate folkloric archives cited above] so I don't know what words were used in those examples.  

****
SONG LYRICS #2
From 
https://makingmusicfun.net/htm/f_mmf_music_library_songbook/who-did-swallow-jonah-lyrics
"Lyrics for 'Who Did Swallow Jonah?'

Who did, who did,
Who did, who did,
Who did swallow
Jo, Jo, Jo, Jo,
Who did, who did,
Who did, who did,
Who did swallow
Jo, Jo, Jo, Jo,
Who did, who did,
Who did, who did,
Who did swallow
Jo, Jo, Jo, Jo,
Who did swallow Jonah,
Who did swallow Jonah,
Who did swallow Jonah down?

Whale did, whale did,
Whale did, whale did,
Whale did swallow
Jo, Jo, Jo, Jo,
Whale did, whale did,
Whale did, whale did,
Whale did swallow
Jo, Jo, Jo, Jo
Whale did, whale did,
Whale did, whale did,
Whale did swallow
Jo, Jo, Jo, Jo,
Whale did swallow Jonah,
Whale did swallow Jonah,
Whale did swallow Jonah down.

Gabriel, Gabriel,
Gabriel, Gabriel,
Gabriel blow your
Trum, trum, trum, trum,
Gabriel, Gabriel,
Gabriel, Gabriel,
Gabriel blow your
Trum, trum, trum, trum,
Gabriel, Gabriel,
Gabriel, Gabriel,
Gabriel blow your
Trum, trum, trum, trum,
Gabriel blow your trumpet,
Gabriel blow your trumpet,
Gabriel blow your trumpet loud.

Noah, Noah,
Noah, Noah,
Noah in the
Arky, arky,
Noah, Noah,
Noah, Noah,
Noah in the
Arky, arky,
Noah, Noah,
Noah, Noah,
Noah in the
Arky, arky,
Noah in the arky,
Noah in the arky,
Noah in the arky bailed.

Daniel, Daniel,
Daniel, Daniel,
Daniel in the
Li, li, li, li,
Daniel, Daniel,
Daniel, Daniel,
Daniel in the
Li, li, li, li,
Daniel, Daniel,
Daniel, Daniel,
Daniel in the
Li, li, li, li,
Daniel in the lion's,
Daniel in the lion's,
Daniel in the lion's den.

Peter, Peter,
Peter, Peter,
Peter on the
Sea, sea, sea, sea,
Peter, Peter,
Peter, Peter,
Peter on the
Sea, sea, sea, sea,
Peter, Peter,
Peter, Peter,
Peter on the
Sea, sea, sea, sea,
Peter walking on the,
Peter walking on the,
Peter walking on the sea.

****
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Visitor comments are welcome. 


Thursday, October 27, 2022

How The Christian Song "There Were Three Jolly Fishermen" Became A "Naughty" Children's Song (with lyrics to the related song "Three Jews Came From Jerusalem")


RobertBadenPowell, Jan. 31, 2012

[...]

Lyrics:

Verse #1: There were three jolly fishermen,
There were three jolly fishermen, Fisher, fisher, MEN, MEN, MEN. Fisher, fisher, MEN, MEN, MEN. There weere three jolly fishermen. Verse #2 -The first one's name was Abraham, The first one's name was Abraham, Abra, Abra; ham ham, ham Abra, Abra; ham ham, ham The first one's name was Abraham. Verse- 3- The second one's name was I-I-saac, The second one's name was I-I-saac, I-I, I-I- zik, zik, zik I-I, I-I- zik, zik, zik The second one's name was I-I-saac. Verse #4- The third on'e name was Ja-a-cob, The third on'e name was Ja-a-cob, Ja-a, Ja-a; cub, cub, cub Ja-a, Ja-a; cub, cub, cub The third on'e name was Ja-a-cob.
-snip-
I added the word "verse" and numbers to the lyrics that were found in the summary for this sound file.

This version was recorded by American folk singer/actor Burl Ives. My guess is that Burl Ives' recording of the children's song "Three Jolly Fishermen" in the 1950s was what popularized this children's song in the United States.  However, I don't know the title of the 1950s Burl Ives album that this song was first featured on.  Please share that information if you know it. Thanks!

****
Edited by Azizi Powell

Latest Update- Oct. 31, 2022

This pancocojams post showcases two YouTube sound files of the children's song "Three Jolly Fishermen" and documents how the lyrics to that song became "naughty". 

The Addendum to this post presents a link to a sound file of the (probably related song) "Three Jews Came From Jerusalem" (or similar titles). My transcription of that sound file is also included in that Addendum along with lyrics for the same or related song "Three Wandering Jews".

The content of this post is presented for folkloric, cultural, and entertainment purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

Thanks to all those who are featured in these sound files and thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.

****
SHOWCASE SOUND FILE #2: Three Jolly Fishermen 



Wee Sing - Topic, Jun 7, 2018

℗ 2011 Early Bird Recordings. © 1997 by Pamela Conn Beall and Susan Hagen Nipp. Wee Sing ® of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. Released on: 2011-05-20 -snip- Here's my transcription of the lyrics that are sung in this sound file. Lyrics sung in this sound file:

Verses 1-4 [The same lyrics that are given in Lyrics #1 above]

Verse #5 They all sailed up to Jericho, They all sailed up to Jericho, Jer-i, Jer-i; cho, cho, cho, Jer-i Jer-i cho, cho, cho. They all sailed up to Jericho,

Verse #6 They should have gone to Amsterdam They should have gone to Amsterdam Amster, Amster, Shh! Shh! Shh!, Amster, Amster, Shh! Shh! Shh!

**** PANCOCOJAMS EDITOR'S NOTE The children's song "Three Jolly Fishermen" and the song "Three Jews Came From Jerusalem are probably adaptations of the sea song with that same title. The tune for that sea song* (as sung in this YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU*5gYc1uo) appears to me to be basically the same as that children's song, However, except for the title and the repeated first line "We are three jolly fishermen", the rest of the shanty's lyrics are different from those children's songs. -snip- If I understand it correctly, a sea song is a song that is sung for pleasure by sailors while a shanty is a work song that is sung by sailors. Here's the lyrics for a version of that traditional shanty as performed by John Greaves, Recorded in Harrogate on 28/01/2007

http://www.yorkshirefolksong.net/song.cfm?songID=82

Lead) We are three jolly fishermen,
(All) We are three jolly fishermen,
We are three jolly fishermen, while the merry,merry bells do ring.

(Lead) Make haste, make haste, (Chorus) You be too late,

(Lead) One fish, my dear, (Chorus) I cannot wait,

(All) For me fine fry of herring, me bonny silver herring,

Mind how you sell them while the merry, merry bells do ring.

2. We cast our nets unto the rocks.

3. We’ve white an’ speckled bellied uns.

4. We sell them three for fourpence.
-snip-
Read the next section for comments about the history of this song.

****
INFORMATION AND COMMENTS ABOUT THERE WERE THREE JOLLY FISHERMEN"

These sources are given in no particular order and are numbered for referencing purposes only. SOURCE #1
From https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=30614
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Three Jolly Fishermen
1. Michael in Swansea, 09 Feb 01 - 07:41 AM

THREE JOLLY FISHERMEN

We are three jolly fishermen
We are three jolly fishermen
We are three jolly fishermen
While the merry merry bells do ring

Chorus: Make haste make haste
You'll be too late
One fish my dear
I cannot wait
For me fine fry of herring
Me bonnie silver herring
Mind how you sell them
While the merry merry bells do ring

We cast our nets into the sea (deep) x3
While the merry ..... etc

We've fine and speckled bellied un's x3
While the merry ..... etc

We sell them three four fourpence x3
While the merry ..... etc

** 2. Dave (Bridge), Date: 09 Feb 01 - 05:11 PM
..."Song originating from Whitby in Yorkshire"...
** 3. Michael in Swansea, Date: 10 Feb 01 - 05:01 AM
"Didn't know that, thanks Dave.
Lovely place Whitby, go there every October for the shanty festival." ** 4. mandomad, 10 Feb 01 - 07:22 AM
"Hi Mike, Yes, we see you on the Sunday night when you turn up in the Tap & Spile for a after Festival sing/sup. We know the second verse as...We'll cast our nets unto the rocks(3).

"The merry,merry bells do ring," are ,of course the Bells of St Mary's church up on the cliff top. Do drop into the Tap again this year,and give us a song (with as many of your shanty lads as can manage. We might just persuade Derek Elliott to give his well known rendition of the above song Cheers.
Tony(Mandomad)

The noisy one in the corner."

** 5. Malcolm Douglas Date: 12 Feb 02- 10:03 AM "Roy Palmer prints a slightly different set in The Oxford Book of Sea Songs (1986), now revised and reprinted as Boxing the compass.  He comments:

"Steve Gardham recorded this from Thomas Calvert of Runswick Bay, North Yorkshire, in 1971.  The song, which seems to have been a particular favourite in the Whitby area (though Cecil Sharp had a version from Middlesex, attached to a dance), was issued on a broadside printed in 1837-8 by W. and T. Fordyce, Newcastle, under the title of Caller Herring.  This in turn loosely derives from a song of the same name by Lady Carolina Nairne (1766-1845), published in 1824 to a tune by Nathaniel Gow (1777-1831), based on 'the original Cry of the Newhaven fish wives, Selling their fresh herrings in the streets of Edinburgh'.  Gow's tune was issued as a shilling music sheet for piano in c.1802."

**
6. Dave Bryant, Date: 12 Feb 02 - 12:50 PM
"Alan, You were around at Stony on Saturday night when Linda and I sang it - although we sing it as "Two" rather than "Three" fo obvious reasons. There is another verse after "We cast our nets into the sea"

We bring them fresh to market.

I first heard it sung many years ago by Derek & Dorothy Elliot, and we basically use their arrangement of Linda (& chorus ladies) singing the "Make Haste, Make Haste" and "One fish my dear" lines, and me (and chorus men) singing "You'll be too late" and "I cannot wait" lines.

I had heard that it referred to Staithes, further up the coast from Whitby, where the fisherfolk were very religious (Plymouth Brethren?). When the boats landed with the catch, fish were only on sale for a short time before the fisherfolk would have to attend prayers to give thanks. It's an interesting story anyway. I can remember women from Staithes selling fish at Stockton market when I was up in the NE during the 60s. They used to wear long black skirts and bonnets rather like the Sally Army ones."
-snip-
This comment is the first one that I've come across that connects the sea song "There Were Three Jolly Fishermen" with the contemporary song of the same title that is considered a Christian children's song.

"The Sally Army" referred to in the quoted comment is a colloquial referent for the Salvation Army

****
SOURCE #2
From https://www.fresnostate.edu/folklore/ballads/FSWB240A.html Once There Were Three Fishermen (The Three Jews) "DESCRIPTION: "Once there were three fishermen (x2),

Fisher fisher men men men (x3) Once there were three fishermen." The three fishermen are named, and their voyages described.

AUTHOR: unknown

EARLIEST DATE: 1927 (Harbin-Parodology)

FOUND IN: US(MW,Ro) Canada(Mar,Newf)

[...]

Roud #3708 and 12776

NOTES : This is rather confusing, because the change of one word significantly changes the song. In several texts (Gardner and Chickering, Greenleaf and Mansfield), the three heroes are Jews. But in Pankake, as well as the version printed by Silber, they are fishermen. The latter version is very much a children's song, I've only encountered two versions of this, and they differ in most particulars: In the Silber version, the sailors are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and they sail for Amsterdam (with resulting comments about naughty words); Ed McCurdy sings a version with different sailors, in which Halifax is the destination. It appears Averill-Camp Songs Folk Songs also had the Amsterdam version.

The fact that the three sailors are "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" in one of the "Fishermen" versions implies to me that the "Three Jews" version is older; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are, of course, the three patriarchs of the Jews, so if they show up in a "Fishermen" version, it's because the names were derived from a "Three Jews" version.

In this case, Roud splits the two versions. But the verse form, as well as the names of the characters, says they are the same."
****
SOURCE #3 From https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=107415 Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Three Jolly Fishermen

[Pancocojams Editor's Note: This is basically a reprint of very small Mudcat discussion thread. All of the post [comments] are reprinted here except for a comment that I wrote encouraging the first commenter to add his comment to the Biblical Place Name discussion thread that I had started.]

1. From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 06:52 PM

"Astounded that this one is not in the DT or a Mudcat Thread.

Azizi's posting regarding Biblical Places prompted the memory.

Three Jolly Fishermen

There were three jolly fishermen,
There were three jolly fishermen,
Fisher, fisher, MEN, MEN, MEN.
Fisher, fisher, MEN, MEN, MEN.
There weere three jolly fishermen.

The first one's name was Abraham,
The first one's name was Abraham,
Abra, Abra; ham ham, ham,
Abra, Abra; ham ham, ham,
The first one's name was Abraham,

The second one's name was I-I-saac,
The second one's name was I-I-saac,
I-I, I-I- zik, zik, zik, etc.

The third one's name was Ja-a-cob,
The third one's name was Ja-a-cob,
Ja-a, Ja-a; cub, cub, cub, etc.

They all went down to Jericho,
They all went down to Jericho,
Jer-i, Jer-i; cho, cho, cho, etc.

They should have gone to Amsterdam,
They should have gone to Amsterdam,
Amster, Amster, Shh! Shh! Shh!,
Amster, Amster, Shh! Shh! Shh!

You shouldn't say that naughty word!

CAN BE SUNG AS A ROUND

Sincerely,

Gargoyle"

**
2. From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 07:36 PM

Well, I'm glad to know that that the Biblical Place Name Thread inspired this thread.

As to the song Three Jolly Fisherman, the version that I learned along the way {which means I don't remember when I learned it but it probably wasn't when I was a young child} is somewhat different than the version that you posted, Gargoyle. Here's that version:

Three Jolly Fishermen

There were three jolly fishermen, fishermen.
There were three jolly fishermen, fishermen
Fisher, fisher, men, men, men
Fisher, fisher, men, men, men.
There were three jolly fishermen.

The first one's name was Abraham, Abraham
The first one's name was Abraham, Abraham
Abra, Abra, ham, ham, ham.
Abra, Abra, ham, ham, ham.
The first one's name was Abraham.

The second one's name was I-I-saac, Isaac.
The second one's name was I-I-saac, Isaac.
I-I, I-I- zik, zik, zik,
I-I, I-I- zik, zik, zik,
The second one's name was I-I-saac.

The third one's name was Ja-a-cob, Jacob.
The third one's name was Ja-a-cob, Jacob.
Jay-a, Jay-a; cub, cub, cub.
Jay-a, Jay-a; cub, cub, cub.
The third one's name was Ja-a-cob.

They all went down to Amster-shh! Amerster-shh!
They all went down to Amerster-shh!
Amster, Amster, Shh! Shh! Shh!
Amster, Amster, Shh! Shh! Shh!
They all went down to Amster-shh!

You must not say that naughty word! Naughty word.
You shouldn't say that naughty word! Naughty word.
Naughty naughty, word word word.
Naughty naughty, word word word.
You must not say that naughty word!

I'm gonna say it any how, any how.
I'm gonna say it any how, any how.
Any any how how how.
Any any how how how.
I'm gonna say it any how.

They all went down to AmsterDAM. AmsterDAM.
They all went down to AmersterDAM. AmsterDAM.
Amster, Amster, DAM! DAM! DAM!
Amster, Amster, DAM! DAM! DAM!
They all went down to AmsterDAM!

**
Actually, I don't recall singing the last two* verses. However, that's the way it was sung in the summer camp that my children attended in the mid 1990s."
-snip-
Oct. 27, 2022 - Correction- I don’t recall singing the last four verses [ i.e. I believe that the way I remember  singing that song is that it ended with the Jacob verse. Also, notice that my version (probably in the late 1950s when I was around age 10 years old and my children's version from the 1990s didn't include the "Jericho" verse.]

**
3. 
From: Susan of DT
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 07:48 PM

"Azizi - The whole point of singing the song, when you are ten years old in summer camp, is to sing those AmsterDAM lines."

**
4. From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 08:27 PM

"A long time ago, I heard this song in Hebrew, something about shlosha dayagim. In place of Amsterdam, it had Arizona, zona being Hebrew for whore.

**
5. 
Leadfingers
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 09:16 PM

"I learned it as a DEFINATELY non PC song over forty years ago when it was sung as Three Jews from Jerusalem and would NOT have been sung by ten year olds at summer camp !!"

****
SOURCE #4 From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srb0fdH7yEE [This is the link to the first YouTube sound file that is given in this pancocojams post.] 

Here are some comments from this sound file's discussion thread. Numbers have been assigned for referencing purposes only. 

1. Shelley Noyes, 2015
"I recall ending the song with 'and now we're going to finish it. And now we're going to finish it. Finney Finney, ** ** **, Finney Finney ** ** **!!' shouting the last words at the top of our lungs in the back of the bus. So naughty. ;)"

**
Reply
2. Zippity Zoop, 2016
"We used say they all went down to Amsterdam: Amster, Amster, dam dam dam!"

**
3. E. Collins, 2018
"In the version from my childhood, after the Amsterdam verse, there was "I must not say that naughty word, etc."  Then, "I'm gonna say it anyway, etc."  And finally (!), "They all went down to Amster DAM!, etc."...

**
Reply
4. lyncap99, 2021
"Yeah this is the version I remember they all went down to amster-shhh... Must not say that naughty word... Think I'll say it anyway... All went down to amster dam"

**
5. TheHoffy59, 2019
"You should have seen that old peacock.   Pea Pea..............."

****
ADDENDUM - "THREE JEWS OF JERUSELAM" / "THREE JEWS CAME FROM JERUSALEM"

https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Bob-and-Jacqueline-Patten-Collection/025M-C1033X0015XX-1200V0  Three Jews Of Jerusalem
-snip-

Here's my transcription of that sound file (Additions and corrections are welcome) 

There were was three Jews of Jerusalem
There were three Jews of Jerusalem
Jery ery ery usalem
Jer ery ery usalem
There were three Jews of Jerusalem

And the first one’s name was Isaac
The first one’s name was Isaac
I ey I ey I ey  zik zik zik
I ey I ey I ey zik zik zik
The first one’s name was Isaac

The second one’s name was Abraham
The second one’s name was Abraham
Abrey abrey abrey ham ham ham
Abrey abrey abrey ham ham ham
The second one’s name was Abraham

The third one’s name was Jacob
The third one’s name was Jacob
Jaey ey ey cub cub cub
Jaey ey ey cub cub cub
The third one’s name was Jacob

They all went up in a chari bang 
They all went up in a chari bang
chari ari ari bang bang bang
chari ari ari bang bang bang
They all went up in a chari bang

But they all had to go to hospital
They all had to go to hospital
Hos ey osey osey pit pit al
Hos ey osey osey pit pit al
They all had to go to hospital

But then they decided to finish it
Then they decided to finish it
Finney eney eney it it it
Finney eney eney it it it
Then they decided to finish it

-snip-
The structure for this song is the same as the structure of "Three Jolly Fishermen".

The tune for both songs are very similar. However, the tune for the last line of "Three Jews Of Jerusalem" is different from the last line for "Three Jolly Fishermen". The last line of this song sound to me like the last line of the verses for the Christian hymn "Take My Life And Let It Be" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ93HVuYd5Y . 

**
Here's a link to a YouTube video that shows some children from India singing "Three Jews Came From Jerusalem" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrdI9J6a2pA published by Akash Mondal, Feb. 28, 2020 

This song is described in the video's summary as an "action song". This  is one of several YouTube videos of Christian groups of Indian children singing that song. Unfortunately, I don't feel confident about transcribing the words that are sung.

Here's the lyrics for a YouTube video of the same song with basically the same tune* as "Three Jolly Fishermen" and "Three Jews Of Jerusalem", but with a different title: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivvvnBwEGZ8 Song: Three Wandering Jews, published by Mission Bible Class, July 22, 2013

"Lyrics:
Once there were three wandering Jews
Once there were three wandering Jews
Wandering, wandering
Jews, jews, jews

Wandering, wandering
Jews, jews, jews
Once there were three wandering Jews

The first one's name was Abraham
The first one's name was Abraham
Abra-abra
Ham-ham-ham
Abra-abra
Ham-ham-ham
The first one's name was Abraham

The second one's name was Isaac
The second one's name was Isaac
I-I
Saac-saac-saac
I-I
Saac-saac-saac
The second one's name was Isaac

The third one's name was Jacob
The third one's name was Jacob
Ja-ja
Cob-cob-cob
Ja-ja
Cob-cob-cob
The third one's name was Jacob

They all went down to Canaan's land
They all went down to Canaan's land
Canaan-canaan
Land-land-land
Canaan-canaan
Land-land-land
They all went down to Canaan's land"

****
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