tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post6928319747215773715..comments2024-03-28T04:13:55.692-04:00Comments on pancocojams: "Four White Horses" Caribbean Song & Hand Clap Rhyme, Part I: Speculative Origins & Lyric ExamplesAzizi Powellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-30099864908291716502022-11-23T13:22:13.882-05:002022-11-23T13:22:13.882-05:00Hello, Anonymous. Thanks for adding to the folklor...Hello, Anonymous. Thanks for adding to the folkloric record for this rhyme. I appreciate your inclusion of demographic information.<br /><br />You wrote that you were raised in Harlem. Are you Black and do you have any Caribbean ancestry that you are aware of? (I'm wondering if this rhyme came to Harlem from a particular West Indian country).<br /><br />Also, what if anything did/do you think that "Shout and play is a ripe banana"? meant/means?<br /><br />Best wishes!Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-13388405578564625172022-11-23T11:15:45.997-05:002022-11-23T11:15:45.997-05:00I was raised in Harlem, NYC in the 60s and 70s. We...I was raised in Harlem, NYC in the 60s and 70s. We handclap and sung it this way:<br /><br />Four white horses on the river<br />Hey, hey, hey up tomorrow <br />Up tomorrow is a rainy day <br />Come on children let’s shout and play<br />Shout and play is a ripe banana<br /> <br />I was teaching the song to my granddaughter and she wanted to know where did it originated from and found your site and was amazed on the different lyrics taught. How fascinating down throughout time and where it has been sung.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-49526932537385866412022-06-10T08:39:24.249-04:002022-06-10T08:39:24.249-04:00Greetings, Anonymous.
Thanks for both of your com...Greetings, Anonymous.<br /><br />Thanks for both of your comments. What you shared was interesting and adds to the ideas to be considered about this "Four White Horses" song.<br /> <br />Best wishes!Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-90738334011237271052022-06-09T20:58:49.558-04:002022-06-09T20:58:49.558-04:00Religious lyrics do seem out of keeping w the rest...Religious lyrics do seem out of keeping w the rest of the song though, so the white wave idea makes much more sense in that way. The Sally Brown shanty theory is very interesting. I’d never have known the “up” we sang came from a Caribbean pronunciation of “hope.” “Up” didn’t stick out as odd to me, where rigidly pronouncing out “heben” “gwine” etc feels charicaturish. I think because “up” is a word in itself and the phrase makes as much sense to me either way. What do you have to do tomorrow? Get up! Up tomorrow. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-71951284236726800972022-06-09T20:39:49.674-04:002022-06-09T20:39:49.674-04:00We sung this and played the 4-person clapping game...We sung this and played the 4-person clapping game on the schoolyard, growing up in San Francisco in the 90’s. We sung the first version listed, submitted by Cleo-- “shadow play is a ripe banana.” I wonder if “4 white horses on a river” could be a folk-Christian reference to the Jordan River and horses from Revelation? I’ve heard 4 white horses come up in spirituals about heaven and judgement day…. in our version of “Drinking that Wine” one verse says “4 white horses side by side / one’a them horses I’m gonna ride,” and other verses reference crossing the River Jordan. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-76803271914896358572021-02-25T11:44:22.338-05:002021-02-25T11:44:22.338-05:00Thanks for sharing that example from St.Vincents!
...Thanks for sharing that example from St.Vincents!<br /><br />I love children's folk processing songs, rhymes, and chants (because of mishearing, misremembering, or as an attempt to make sense out of words and phrases that are unfamiliar to them.)<br /><br />Best wishes!<br /><br />PS: I confess that it took me a minute or so to figure out what "vincy" meant in your first sentence.<br /><br /><br /><br />Here's some information about St. Vincent:<br />"Saint Vincent is a volcanic island in the Caribbean. It is the largest island of the country Saint Vincent and the Grenadines island chain. It is located in the Caribbean Sea, between Saint Lucia and Grenada"... <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Vincent_(Antilles)" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Vincent_(Antilles)</a>Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-36747898982536769752021-02-25T11:28:44.749-05:002021-02-25T11:28:44.749-05:00the vincy version I always sung as a child is this...the vincy version I always sung as a child is this:<br /><br />Four white horses on a table<br />pick them up and grease their navals (children rub their bellies)<br />'ere, 'ere we go, up tomorrow<br />up tomorrow is a break up day<br />and a break up day is a shallow day<br />and a shallow day is a ripe banana<br />'ere, 'ere we go up tomorrow.<br /><br />This is what happens when we leave the preservation of folk tunes to children :)---https://www.blogger.com/profile/01425476024680709494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-47182625805647301692017-07-20T08:55:49.282-04:002017-07-20T08:55:49.282-04:00It seems to me that the "right" way to t...It seems to me that the "right" way to teach the Caribbean folk song "Four White Horses" is to admit that no one knows what the original words were. <br /><br />I'm leaning toward the theory that "Four White Horses" was originally a "Sally Brown" shanty (seamen's work song) and that the words "Sally Brown" became "Shallow Brown" and then "shallow bay" by folk processing.<br /><br />As to the theory that the line "shallow bay is a ripe banana" means that there is a location in the Caribbean (or anywhere else) called "shallow bay" that is shaped like a ripe banana, I don't know whether there is an actual bay in the United States Virgin Island or in any other Caribbean nation that is named "Shallow Bay". And I don't know if that particular bay is shaped like a banana. There <i>is</i> a Shallow Bay Beach in Canada <a href="http://www.newfoundlandlabrador.com/PlanYourTrip/Detail/29641117" rel="nofollow">http://www.newfoundlandlabrador.com/PlanYourTrip/Detail/29641117</a>. <br /><br />And there are a number of touristy type homes in the Caribbean named "Shallow Bay". But that's probably because those tourist residences/locations were named "Shallow Bay" because of the popularity of that folk song.<br /><br />Also, given that I think that it's likely that this song was a shanty, I also think that "four white horses on the river" might have been a reference to four high white waves on the river. That said, it's still possible that the words "on the rainbow" might have been an earlier than "on the river".<br /><br />There appears to be a lot of evidence that the word "up" in the "Four White Horses" song was the way people in the Caribbean (who have difficulty pronouncing the letter "h") pronounced the word "hope". Therefore, it doesn't seem to me to be any reason why people who have no difficulty pronouncing the letter "h" would sing "up tomorrow" instead of the "hope tomorrow"...<br /><br />Personally, singing "up" for me feels like insisting on singing "gwine" and “heben” instead of "gonna" and “heaven” in African American Spirituals, although I admit that it's not really the same thing because African Americans don't say "gwine" and “heben” anymore, but lots of people in the Caribbean may still pronounce the word "hope" like "up".<br /><br />Everyone can do as they choose, but I've decided to sing "Four White Horses" to children this way:<br /><br />Four white horses, on the river,<br />Hey, hey, hey, hope tomorrow,<br />Hope tomorrow's not a rainy day.<br />Come on up to the Shallow Bay,<br />Shallow Bay is a ripe banana,<br />Hope tomorrow's not a rainy day.Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.com