tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post6373465396570162459..comments2024-03-28T07:58:41.643-04:00Comments on pancocojams: Chicken On The Fence Post (information & lyrics) Azizi Powellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-72209869537954179942020-12-12T09:09:07.595-05:002020-12-12T09:09:07.595-05:00I updated the comment that I made in this "Ch...I updated the comment that I made in this "Chicken On A Fence Post" post to further explain my statements about that singing game and about race and racism as they refer to that singing game in particular and children's rhymes and singing games in general.Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-36331684224808966472020-12-11T16:33:36.129-05:002020-12-11T16:33:36.129-05:00You're welcome, Rhonda.
Until I read your fir...You're welcome, Rhonda.<br /><br />Until I read your first comment, I wasn't aware of that Facebook comments about this subject and I regret that people misconstrued what I wrote about the "Chicken On The Fence Post singing game.<br /><br />I don't do Facebook any more. I would appreciate it if you would share these updated comments that explain that I don't consider this song to be racist.<br /><br />Your question about that song motivated me to do some more online research on the larger subject of African American influences on folk music. As a result, I published this post: <a href="https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2020/12/excerpt-from-2002-sociology-pdf.html" rel="nofollow">https://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2020/12/excerpt-from-2002-sociology-pdf.html</a> "Excerpt From a 2002 Sociology Pdf Entitled "Aesthetic Identity, Race, and American Folk Music" by William G. Roy<br /><br />With regard to your latest comment Rhonda, I don't agree that African American music - or African American folk music- is the backbone of all modern music. However, I believe that African American music has greatly influenced a lot of music genres, including a lot of American (United States) popular secular and religious music. I include children's hand clap rhymes, cheers, and singing games as components of secular folk music genres that have been and continue to be very heavily influenced by African Americans. That leads us back to the "Chicken On A Fence Post" song. <br /><br />Best wishes!Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-31061959831013512122020-12-11T03:34:16.491-05:002020-12-11T03:34:16.491-05:00Thank you for taking the time to post such a thoro...Thank you for taking the time to post such a thorough reply! I was first acquainted with your blog in the summer of 2019, when there was a huge controversy in Music Ed groups on Facebook. At the time, I felt certain you were being misunderstood. I have revisited this page, along with the page on Old Dan Tucker, off and on to re-assess my own understanding. I feel very alone in not jumping on the bandwagon to eliminate these songs, and your response has renewed my courage to enjoy them and teach my students to appreciate African-American folk music, which is the backbone of all modern music. Thank you!Rhondahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915712628127812752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-55216151561013192292020-12-11T00:12:06.156-05:002020-12-11T00:12:06.156-05:00Here's a long excerpt that I wrote that I adde...Here's a long excerpt that I wrote that I added to another pancocojams post about the related subject of whether songs that have racist origins should be taught to children:<br /><a href="http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-racist-roots-of-five-little-monkeys.html" rel="nofollow">http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-racist-roots-of-five-little-monkeys.html</a><br /><br />"As an African American community folklorist who is particularly interested in playground rhymes, I’m aware that some playground rhymes – like other folk material – have problematic, and even quite offensive early versions. However, I don’t think that means that people should avoid teaching and sharing with children those politically correct versions which were purposely made to substitute for those offensive versions, or which developed non-racist variants by happenchance.<br /><br />For what it’s worth, I learned “Eeny Meenie Miney Mo” with the “catch a tiger by the toe” line when I was growing up in the mid 1950s in Atlantic City, New Jersey. And it wasn’t until I was in my fifties that I learned that “tiger” (or some other word) was a replacement for the “the n word”. From reading other online discussions about this song, including your comment, it seems that a number of people who know that “Eenie Meenie Miney Mo” choosing it rhyme don’t know that it once included the “n word”."<br /><br />I’m not encouraging people to forget the history of rhymes or songs that contained offensive referents. I believe that it would be beneficial for children of certain ages -at least pre-teens- and adults to formally and informally study & discuss this subject as an introduction to and auxiliary resource for the study of anti-racism, multiculturalism, and folklore etc.<br /><br />What I’m much more concerned about is the fact that some playground rhymes are still being recited today that are racist- for example, some examples of “I Went To A Chinese Restaurant”. I strongly believe that those rhymes shouldn’t be recited, and I would have no problem whatsoever contacting the school or community center if I learned that a teacher or staff person was teaching my young granddaughter those offensive versions of those rhymes. Her parents and I would redirect my grandchild in an age appropriate way if she learned an offensive version of that rhyme or if she learned any other offensive rhyme or song from her friends, from television, or the internet or elsewhere.<br /><br />However, I would have no problem – and I believe that her parents would also have no problem – if she recited a non-racist version of a rhyme or a song that had a racist version in its past or its present.<br /><br />I agree with the principal who had concerns about “sensitizing a child to something that we cannot quite explain in full as there is no context for the child – we can’t tell them what the old words used to be.”<br /><br />Just saying that “Some examples of that rhyme have hurtful words” is too vague unless we also say what those words are. And I don’t think that adults need to do that unless the children are older or are the children are heard using those words or hear someone else use those words and ask us about them."<br /><br />****<br />Here's another response I wrote [no date given] to the question "If "Five Little Monkeys" and "Shortnin Bread" do indeed have racist roots, does that mean that people who are anti-racist shouldn't sing those songs and teach them to children?<br /><br />I believe that current versions of "Five Little Monkeys", "Shornin Bread" and "Eenie Meenie Miney Mo" may be acceptable for singing and viewing with children in spite of their racist origins if their drawings or other visuals aren't stereotypical and if those versions don't include any offensive words or gestures."...Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-62028312116426129832020-12-10T23:56:08.178-05:002020-12-10T23:56:08.178-05:00Hello, Rhonda.
Thank you for your comment. I had ...Hello, Rhonda.<br /><br />Thank you for your comment. I had no idea that anyone had reached the mistaken conclusion that I thought that "Chicken On A Fence Post" was racist. <br /><br />Please read the response that I included in this post itself.<br /><br />Thanks again,<br /><br />Azizi Powell<br /> Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-22735523253759857582020-12-10T17:32:43.396-05:002020-12-10T17:32:43.396-05:00Can I ask... I am a white Elementary Music teache...Can I ask... I am a white Elementary Music teacher, and my kids love Chicken on a Fence Post. All colors of kids - and we have 50% white, 50% black/hispanic/other. Many music educators are citing this web post as evidence that Chicken on a Fence Post/Dance Josey is racist and therefore we shouldn't use it anymore. I personally feel that if this is a song that was likely of African-American origin that to stop using it is even more racist. Just curious - where do you weigh in on this issue? Is the song racist, so we shouldn't use it? Rhondahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915712628127812752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-41147760726086247932013-08-14T11:22:29.095-04:002013-08-14T11:22:29.095-04:00Here's an excerpt from a video summary of a pe...Here's an excerpt from a video summary of a performance of the Jamaican folk shanty "Sally Brown" which also addresses the issue of generalizing the source of folk songs & rhymes:<br /><br />"Excerpt from the uploader’s summary of the video about the Jamaican sea shanty “Sally Brown”:<br /><br />“Interesting how many modern versions of this have sort of neutralized it, removing racial or ethnic markers. Too bad this also removes the Jamaica setting and some of the depth of meaning of what is going on here in this chantey...” <br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVUn_v3jIZA" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVUn_v3jIZA</a> by hultonclint<br /> Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5893219718076521675.post-41078072653411584902013-08-14T11:01:25.924-04:002013-08-14T11:01:25.924-04:00Here's a reposting of a comment that I added t...Here's a reposting of a comment that I added to my post on the game song "Charlie Over The Ocean" <a href="http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/08/charlie-over-ocean-childrens-game-song.html" rel="nofollow">http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/08/charlie-over-ocean-childrens-game-song.html</a> which explains why I think that it's important to note when game songs (or other folk songs) are of African American origin: <br /><br />"To expand on my comments in this post about "color blindness" and children's playground rhymes, I think that it's unfortunate that non-offensive references to race have been purposely deleted from most American children's rhymes and many American folk songs. Those deletions, or the failure to recognize certain references as being racial in intent results in many Americans and other persons assuming that the only pre-20th century American songs that are of African American origin are Spirituals, Gospel songs, Blues, Ragtime, and Jazz. <br /><br />That listing of pre-20th century African American songs are incomplete as it doesn't include "American Folk songs", Old Time Banjo & Fiddle songs, Sea Shanties, children's playground rhymes, play party songs, and probably other music genres.<br /><br />It seems to me that failing to even briefly note the African American origin of that music means missed opportunities to recognize & celebrate the cultural diversity of the United States, and help African Americans develop & reinforce their sense of self-esteem and group esteem."Azizi Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963772326145910073noreply@blogger.com